Okay I'll do SS, but I have some questions. So help me out, m'kay!

[ANewDave]

I just had a couple questions about riptoes program:

How long is this program good for?

Can I convert it to a 6-day split?

It also seems to be missing some important exercises like pull-ups and leg press. I know I am not very experienced but shouldn't I add those to my program?

Finally, I am not to happy about having to give up on exercises that I am showing good progress in; will I be better at the isolation moves after doing this for a while?

[gbrs5]

For 6 day program, no. Part of the program is proper rest. Also, do you realize if you converted it to a 6 day program, you'd be squatting 6 DAYS A WEEK!!!

The two accessory exercises you can add are dips and chin-ups. Dips on the day you bench, and chin-ups on the other day.

A lot of people would say if you add other **** to the program, then you're not really doing SS anymore.

[95whtgst]

squats will have you covered on your leg presses. Squatting heavy > leg pressing heavy. Do the 3 day split and give it time, you'll be too sore to make it a 6 day split. After a bit of time, add in some chin ups if you really feel the need, but give it a couple months first.


additionally - after you build a good base on strength, your improvements on isolation exercises will do more for you.

[ANewDave]

squats will have you covered on your leg presses. Squatting heavy > leg pressing heavy. Do the 3 day split and give it time, you'll be too sore to make it a 6 day split. After a bit of time, add in some chin ups if you really feel the need, but give it a couple months first.


additionally - after you build a good base on strength, your improvements on isolation exercises will do more for you.

I think I would want to convert it a bit to make it a six day. It's not that I think I will see more gains on 6 days its just that I need those six days to get into a rhythm and make the most of my gym membership. I also like the amount of food I eat and I have been gaining weight on it. Any less than six days and I would have to cut back ): Is there any way I could split up the workout so I am squatting every other day?

[r_graz]

I think I would want to convert it a bit to make it a six day. It's not that I think I will see more gains on 6 days its just that I need those six days to get into a rhythm and make the most of my gym membership. I also like the amount of food I eat and I have been gaining weight on it. Any less than six days and I would have to cut back ): Is there any way I could split up the workout so I am squatting every other day?

Do a different program. This one isn't for you. Too many people screw with it, don't get the results they're expecting, and then blame the program.

Do this one as written or it's not really worth bothering with it.

[Inertiatic]

I don't know why I'm still surprised that people are this silly.

OP, do the program as written.

[Lemonade727]

I'm pretty sure every response you get on this question is going to result in 1 answer...your idea is NOT recommended and will do more harm than good.

The idea of the Starting Strength program is to add weight to the bar EVERY DAY to continue through linear progression. Doing these compound exercises at your true 5RM and trying to increase that every workout is NOT going to happen without proper rest. You're just going to stall and fail. The program is hard enough as it is when you do it with the proper 3-day week setup, doubling the workload just is not feasible.

[scottaii]

I think I would want to convert it a bit to make it a six day. It's not that I think I will see more gains on 6 days its just that I need those six days to get into a rhythm and make the most of my gym membership. I also like the amount of food I eat and I have been gaining weight on it. Any less than six days and I would have to cut back ): Is there any way I could split up the workout so I am squatting every other day?

If you want a 6 day split, don't use SS, its not a 6 day split routine.
Its a full body 3 day routine. Your going to be chucking the weights on every session. Your bodies going to NEED to repair its self. If you want, add chin-ups to workout A and dips to Workout B.
If you want, just for your sake, you can add an extra isolation exercise but as mentioned before, it wouldn't truly be SS, but it wont really f*ck anything up either.

Just remember, you going to be doing HUGE compound exercises and your bodies going to need to rest.

[Ironwake]

Okay I'll do SS

Can I convert it to a 6-day split?

It also seems to be missing some important exercises like pull-ups and leg press. I know I am not very experienced but shouldn't I add those to my program?

Finally, I am not to happy about having to give up on exercises that I am showing good progress in; will I be better at the isolation moves after doing this for a while?

Wut? if you say you are going to do it: DO THE FUKCING PROGRAM.

[Ironwake]

Okay I'll do SS

Can I convert it to a 6-day split?

It also seems to be missing some important exercises like pull-ups and leg press. I know I am not very experienced but shouldn't I add those to my program?

Finally, I am not to happy about having to give up on exercises that I am showing good progress in; will I be better at the isolation moves after doing this for a while?

Wut? if you say you are going to do it: DO THE FUKCING PROGRAM.

Everything that is important is included in the program ( yes, chins/pullsups/dips are usually included )

[ANewDave]

Wut? if you say you are going to do it: DO THE FUKCING PROGRAM.

Everything that is important is included in the program ( yes, chins/pullsups/dips are usually included )

Well okay lol, maybe I won't do it then. Are there any good beginner programs that cover 6 days?

[r_graz]

Well okay lol, maybe I won't do it then. Are there any good beginner programs that cover 6 days?

Insisting that you be in the gym 6 days is a pretty ass-backwards way at looking at how to make progress. "More" isn't definitely always "better" in lifting, especially for a novice.

Maybe you could lift 3 days a week and just hang out at the gym and watch the cardio bunnies on the treadmill on the other 3 days to maximize your gym membership.

[ANewDave]

Insisting that you be in the gym 6 days is a pretty ass-backwards way at looking at how to make progress. "More" isn't definitely always "better" in lifting, especially for a novice.

Maybe you could lift 3 days a week and just hang out at the gym and watch the cardio bunnies on the treadmill on the other 3 days to maximize your gym membership.

Thats the thing though, I am seeing good results on the drastic program I am on right now. I am recovering easily and feeling great. If my body can handle it why would I want to skip three days?

[mtallmatt]

I don't know why I'm still surprised that people are this silly.

OP, do the program as written.

I see this all the time... What does OP mean?

[Koaia]

You can do whatever you want. Whether or not your changes will be beneficial to the program is another question. If you are doing fine on your 6 day a week program and really don't want to run a 3 day a week beginner program, nobody is going to force you to change your mind.

[ANewDave]

I see this all the time... What does OP mean?

Lol, it stands for "original poster". Its kind of retarded that everyone says it.

[mtallmatt]

Lol, it stands for "original poster". Its kind of retarded that everyone says it.

Lol thanks

[Farley1324]

Thats the thing though, I am seeing good results on the drastic program I am on right now. I am recovering easily and feeling great. If my body can handle it why would I want to skip three days?

Success, you say? How long have you been on the program, what were your big three (squat/bench/deadlift) when you started it and what are they now?

You won't be able to handle SS 6 times a week.

You aren't skipping anything. You are resting and recovering.

[ANewDave]

Well kethnaab says here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224 that Mark has a 6-day split variation but he also says that he doesn't know enough about it to go into depth. Apparently, this shows that Mark didn't think everyone trying to do a six day program was insane. So, does anyone have any idea about what this program could be?

[FryDude]

lmfao why not try it out first and if you don't see results stop? Start it first.

[Farley1324]

Well kethnaab says here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224 that Mark has a 6-day split variation but he also says that he doesn't know enough about it to go into depth. Apparently, this shows that Mark didn't think everyone trying to do a six day program was insane. So, does anyone have any idea about what this program could be?

From that link:

"NO, YOU CANNOT TRAIN 2 CONSECUTIVE DAYS, so don't ask"

[Koaia]

Well kethnaab says here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224 that Mark has a 6-day split variation but he also says that he doesn't know enough about it to go into depth. Apparently, this shows that Mark didn't think everyone trying to do a six day program was insane. So, does anyone have any idea about what this program could be?

You're talking about Kethnaab's reference to Rippetoe's book Practical Programming. The book deals with programming strategies for novices, intermediates and advanced lifters. He does not, at any point in the book, recommend a 6 day a week program for novices. Novices generally haven't built up the work capacity to benefit from an advanced 6 day a week routine.

Rippetoe describes in great detail several methodologies for progression in Practical Programming. I will reproduce a very few of these here so as not to "steal his thunder", as well as give a few of my own that I didn't see him mention. He discusses, at length, 4, 5, and 6-day per week training routines, upper/lower, push/pull, and variations on the Starr model. I will discuss and explain the application of a few here.

[ANewDave]

From that link:

"NO, YOU CANNOT TRAIN 2 CONSECUTIVE DAYS, so don't ask"

Yeahyour right, I was looking at the intermediate section. What if I made the other 3 days cardio sessions? Would that me overtraining? I just know that I have a tendency to eat to much and gain weight. I use to be fat and I don't ever want to be that way again. I am just afraid that 3 days a week won't be enough.

Also, I have two friends that are pretty huge and they have always done the "stupid" programs you guys laugh at. One of them got up to a 425lb bench.

[BenReilly]

Don't even freakin bother if you are going to F the program up like that....continue doin your leg presses and bicepts curls and other isolation stuff

[Farley1324]

Yeahyour right, I was looking at the intermediate section. What if I made the other 3 days cardio sessions? Would that me overtraining? I just know that I have a tendency to eat to much and gain weight. I use to be fat and I don't ever want to be that way again. I am just afraid that 3 days a week won't be enough.

Also, I have two friends that are pretty huge and they have always done the "stupid" programs you guys laugh at. One of them got up to a 425lb bench.

You are 6'2" and 180 pounds. If you do SS as written and keep eating/gaining weight you may just turn out big and strong.

Please be specific on the "stupid" routine that got laughed at, his height/weight, what kind of form/etc he used on that bench and how it was verified, and include his squat/deadlift.

Oh, and what program he used as a novice

[ANewDave]

You are 6'2" and 180 pounds. If you do SS as written and keep eating/gaining weight you may just turn out big and strong.

Please be specific on the "stupid" routine that got laughed at, his height/weight, what kind of form/etc he used on that bench and how it was verified, and include his squat/deadlift.

Oh, and what program he used as a novice

No, I just mean that he started out doing leg press, bicep curls, kickbacks, deads etc. He went into it with a bunch of isolation moves and he got ripped. I don't know specifics. I just know that he looks as good as many of you. All I am saying is that I have heard as many if not more success stories about people not doing SS as doing it. I am not just trying to be a basterd, I just am a little unsure about it all.

[DominationStation]

I am going to answer each part of your initial post individually, b/c I am in that kind of mood...

Okay I'll do SS

Nobody is forcing you to do SS--if you don't wanna do it, don't. However, people are highly RECOMMENDING it b/c it is, simply said, the best program out there for packing strength onto novices like you.

How long is the program good for?

Like anything else, this depends on you. If you do the program correctly, then it will be good for generally between 4-6 months, assuming you eat sufficiently.

[quote] Can I convert it to a 6-day split? Please don't try to do this. Rippetoe is among the most renowned strength coaches in the world for a reason. I noticed you posted later on that you think this is reasonable b/c you've been recovering with no problem and making great gains on a 6 day routine. However, this is merely b/c you're experiencing what are called "newbie gains"--or, in Rip's terms, "the novice effect" (see: http://startingstrength.com/articles...t_rippetoe.pdf , it's an excellent article that few truly comprehend). Your gains are sure to slow much quicker on this 6 day split (which, n/o, is probably pretty terrible, programming wise--I mean, no powerlifter lifts on a 6 day split for a reason, and I think it's safe to say they are more advanced than you...). Just leave the program as is (see: below).

It also seems to be missing some important exercises like pull-ups and leg press.

No, it's not.

Leg presses are for those who are very advanced in squatting or cannot squat for some VALID reason (though there are few to no reasons that would prevent squatting but allow leg pressing, such as your gym not having a squat rack--in which case, find a new gym).

Pull-ups are actually a great accessory movement that you can add to the program after a couple months to give your back a little more work, but only if necessary--there is a reason that they are not included in the original program (however, I've been running SS for about 3 months and have added dips to my A days and chins to my B days).

Finally, I am not to happy about having to give up on exercises that I am showing good progress in; will I be better at the isolation moves after doing this for a while?

Yes, your isolation strength will be exponentially better after you put on a ton of weight (mostly muscle) and can lift more in the compound movements--that's the reason isolation exercises exist in the first place, anyway (to assist in the major compounds). Isolations should not be your concern at this point, however.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Just curious, what is this so-called "6 day split" you've been using (please don't say you change it regularly to surprise your body), and what are your compound lift numbers?

EDIT: Everyone, I found his routine in a post from about a day ago:

MONDAY - BACK/CALVES

One Arm Dumbbell Row – 3 sets, between 8 to 12 reps
Seated Cable Rows – 3 sets, between 8 to 12 reps
Lat Pulldown (arms shoulder width, in-front of neck) – 3 sets, between 8 to 12 reps
Lat Pulldown (arms wide, behind neck) – 3 sets, between 8 to 12 reps
Back Extenstion – 3 sets, between 8 to 12 reps

TUESDAY - CHEST/ABS

Flat Bench Press – 3 sets, between 8 to 12 reps
Incline Dumbbell Press – 3 sets, between 8 to 12 reps
Decline Dumbell Press – 3 sets, between 8 to 12 reps
Chest Press Machine (Paramount Machine) – 4 sets, between 8 to 12 reps

WEDNESDAY - BICEPS/CALVES

Preacher Curls – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps
Concentration Curls – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps
Standing One-Arm Cable Curl (I put my opposite hand behind my tricep so I don’t cheat)
3 sets, 8 to 12 reps

I add an extra set of one-arm cable curls to my left arm at the end because it lags behind my right arm. Is that alright?

THURSDAY - SHOULDERS/TRAPS/ABS

Military Press
Matrix Rotary Shoulder Machine
Upright Rows
Cable front/side raises (I usually do 5 front, 5 side and 2 front, in that order, in each set) – 3 sets, 10 to 12 reps
Smith Machine Shrugs – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps

FRIDAY - LEGS/CALVES

Squats (I come down to sit on a bench and then explode up) – 5 sets, 8 to 12 reps
Leg Press – 4 sets, 10 to 12 reps
Leg Curl – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps
Leg Extension – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps

SATURDAY - TRICEPS/FOREARMS/ABS

Dips – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps
Triceps Pushdown with Rope Attachment – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps
Paramount Tricep Machine – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps
Cable Wrist Curls – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps
Cable Reverse Wrist Curls – 3 sets, 8 to 12 reps


SUNDAY - REST

Here are my weekly abs and calves routines:

CALVES

Barbell Seated Calf Raise on the Smith – 3 sets, 12 reps
Calves on the Leg Press – 4 sets (I do 1 set with straight feet, 1 set facing outward, 1 set
facing inward and another with straight feet. I also increase weight every set), 12 reps
I finish calves with 20min cardio on my tip-toes on the elliptical

ABS

Machine Crunches – 3 sets, 15 to 20 reps
Weighted Crunches – 4 sets, 15 reps
Barbell Side Bends – 3 sets, 15 reps
Cable Side Bends – 3 sets, 15 reps

I also do cardio before and after my workout every day. Thanks guys!

For the record, your friend did not achieve a 425 full ROM bench press on this routine, unless he is either:
a) Superman
b) On steroids
c) Superman on steroids
d) Has Arnie genetics
e) Has Prince Fielder's body-type (giant chest, short arms)
f) Weighs a MINIMUM of 400 lbs

[ANewDave]

Just curious, what is this so-called "6 day split" you've been using (please don't say you change it regularly to surprise your body), and what are your compound lift numbers?

Don't lol to hard: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123152833

[ANewDave]

Oh, and I really did just start my compounds a couple weeks ago. I know that I don't do enough (I don't even do deads) and this was the main reason I asked about SS. I just did 125# squats going all the way down almost touching the floor. I know it was pathetic but it was my first time going that low.

[Farley1324]

All I am saying is that I have heard as many if not more success stories about people not doing SS as doing it.

Which speaks volumes about how good SS is. There are TONS of different programs a novice could follow with every good/great results. SS is merely one of the more popular around here.

You don't have to do SS. Of course, you don't have to do anything, but nobody is even likely to tell you that SS is THE only way to go. There are plenty of options. BUT lifting 6 days a week or making your own program/routine are not among those options.