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  1. #1
    Registered User Kabs's Avatar
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    Honey... does it cause an insulin spike or not

    Ok so i did a search and I have been getting mixed info on honey. Does it infact cause an insulin spike?

    Im lookin at a jar of it right now and it says in 100g of honey (yes alot) there are 79.5g of carbs.



    Reason I ask is im trying to lower the amount of sugar intake (in coffee, tea, etc.) I heard great things about honey, how its healthy, bla bla bla.

    Then I read here in a few posts that honey is great to take post workout to spike insulin levels, however google is tellin me it does not.

    So can anyone who KNOWS for 100% please chime in and clear this up for me. Thanks.
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  2. #2
    Registered User RealMenDeadLift's Avatar
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    You do know honey is sugar right?
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  3. #3
    Life Wizard lod254's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RealMenDeadLift View Post
    You do know honey is sugar right?
    And bee spit.
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  4. #4
    Registered User snorkelman's Avatar
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    Take a look at this study.

    Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity. Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Nov 12;4:18. Full study at http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/18
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  5. #5
    Registered User kusok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by snorkelman View Post
    Take a look at this study.

    Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity. Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Nov 12;4:18. Full study at http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/18

    Can you state in plain English (for retards like me) what the study found?

    My understanding is that the spikes are NOT significant enough to hurt (make you fatter)
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    Life Wizard lod254's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    Can you state in plain English (for retards like me) what the study found?

    My understanding is that the spikes are NOT significant enough to hurt (make you fatter)
    I'll take a stab.

    Honey eaten with protein after a workout will increase blood sugar levels more than other sugars. They say that blood sugar levels were better maintained on the honey. Honey did not express a significantly higher insulin level than other sugars.

    It seems that Honey does not spike insulin levels, but will yield higher blood sugar levels.
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  7. #7
    Registered User Kabs's Avatar
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    im just wondering if im being an idiot wih the honey stuff... aka adding it to coffee and tea and its acting the exact same way as plain old sugar
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    Registered User tagun's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kabs View Post
    im just wondering if im being an idiot wih the honey stuff... aka adding it to coffee and tea and its acting the exact same way as plain old sugar
    Well of course honey is almost identical to plain old sugar. And yes, it's acting the very same way.

    But then again, what's wrong with plain old sugar?
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  9. #9
    Registered User DG0126's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by snorkelman View Post
    Take a look at this study.

    Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity. Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Nov 12;4:18. Full study at http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/18
    Great article.... Hard to make sense of it... But i think I can put it into BB language LOL

    Originally Posted by Kabs View Post
    im just wondering if im being an idiot wih the honey stuff... aka adding it to coffee and tea and its acting the exact same way as plain old sugar
    Bro if you can cut the sugar from tthat stuff go ahead and do so... use something like splenda or something...

    **but to the real question! and the article. Studies show that after a good hard workout in which you lift weights and burn calories that it is nutritionally smart to consume carbs. Alot of guys prefer a bowl of oatmeal... I prefer "Gummy Bears!"

    Gummy Bears Provides the answer to your sugar intake to spike insulin levels "post" workout bro.

    Why should you consume sugar right after workout?
    Because it spikes your insulin levels right after workout....ISULIN is an anabolic hormone....and will actually kickstart the muscle building process. Also, immediately after your WO is the one time you can consume these carbs without having to worry bout it turning into fat, the insulin will drive drive sugar into your muscles which just got done burning glycogen while lifting, and insulin will also drive AA"amino acids" from your protein shake into your muscles.

    Dextros is one of the fastest diguestive brands of sugars you can get. And this sugar can be found in gummy bears.

    Gummy bears(20) 136cals 31g's carbs 3g's protein 0g's of fat
    Oatmeal (1Cup) 146cals 25g's carbs 4g's protein 2g's of fat

    Cliffs:
    Spiked Insulin levels immediately after a WO have anabolic effects.
    Insulin will drive Amino Acids and glycogen into the muscles.
    Gummy bears make you look like a bad ass when you eat them after your WO.
    Last edited by DG0126; 03-15-2010 at 07:32 AM. Reason: misspelling
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  10. #10
    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DG0126 View Post
    Cliffs:
    Spiked Insulin levels immediately after a WO have anabolic effects.
    Insulin is only going to be anabolic at pharmacological doses administered via a poke in the arm. It has anti-catabolic effects and is only permissive when it comes to protein synthesis when an ample amount of protein is consumed in conjunction with. It actually doesn't take a high concentration to exert these effects.

    Originally Posted by DG0126 View Post
    Insulin will drive Amino Acids and glycogen into the muscles.
    Oddly enough, up to the first 60 minutes post exercise, exercise induced translocation of GLUT-4 facilitates insulin INDEPENDENT uptake of glucose.

    Insulin spiking post workout is not necessary for the vast majority.
    Last edited by in10city; 03-15-2010 at 07:54 AM.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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  11. #11
    Kettleburn Fitness jcosley's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    Insulin is only going to be anabolic at pharmacological doses administered via a poke in the arm. It has anti-catabolic effects and is only permissive when it comes to protein synthesis when an ample amount of protein is consumed in conjunction with. It actually doesn't take a high concentration to exert these effects.


    Oddly enough, up to the first 60 minutes post exercise exercise induced translocation of GLUT-4 facilitates insulin INDEPENDENT uptake.

    Insulin spiking post workout is not necessary for the vast majority.
    Good post. From what I've read lately...Pre-Workout carbs are more important then post. Do you agree with this?
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  12. #12
    Registered User snorkelman's Avatar
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    Most people on this website are not in the narrow situation where "spiking" insulin will give them any better results.

    The average bro who lifts weights and uses the insulin spike as an excuse to eat gummy bears is just finding an excuse to eat nutritionally-empty calories.

    I know, I know, bros are just itching to click reply and tell us how spiking the insulin is necessary because it X, Y, and Z.

    Even if they are stubborn and refuse to consider that perhaps spiking insulin will give them no benefit, they should at least ask how much of a spike do they need.

    For the bros that attempt to "spike" insulin, do you guys even know how much of a spike is desirable? Really, how are you determining whether to dose your dextrose at 50 grams or 100 grams?


    Well, here is what the science tells us: Increasing insulin to a range of about 15-30 mU/l will maximize your muscle protein balance (that is muscle protein synthesis minus muscle protein breakdown). This amount basically means achieving an insulin level of about 2-5 times normal fasting insulin levels.

    Do you know how to achieve that level of increase? Well, you can drink pretty much any commercial protein + carb shake. You can also pretty much eat any normal protein + carb meal. Heck, even having a load of fat in that meal will still achieve the desired insulin levels for maximizing the spike for bodybuilding purposes.

    Fat? Wait, I thought that fat slows down digestion and makes my hydrowhey useless?

    Yes, even fat can be part of the post workout meal. If you don't believe me, take a look at this study:

    Splanchnic and leg substrate exchange after ingestion of a natural mixed meal in humans. Capaldo B et. al, Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):958-66.

    They had subjects eat 600 kcal of pizza (which contained 17 grams of fat) and found that even this meal raised insulin levels to a maximum point of 5.6 times that of fasting levels two hours after ingesting them.
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    Kettleburn Fitness jcosley's Avatar
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    I honestly can't grasp eating things I've been reading for post workout lately such as: gummy bears, candy, POPTARTS?, and other crap like that....too me it doesn't make much sense. But I enjoy eating clean 80-90% of them week so I guess that's why I find it weird to eat this crap after a good workout.
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    Registered User DG0126's Avatar
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    0.25-0.4 grams of carbs per pound of their body weight from dextrose (a 175lb person would shoot for between 40-70 grams), although I would shoot for the lower end of the range.

    Good replies and I cant really Argue with yall because there is studies mentioning positives and "it's irrelevant" on both ends of the spectrums. I really like to read and listen to Jim Stoppani's, PhD, information that he believes in.

    LOL But yea, maybe it's my excuse to eat candy since i eat such a clean diet.... and if this is the one time i can do so without it being harmful to my diet then sure.... why not... and if it's not really as great as they, "the so called experts," then that's ok too. Either way I dont see it harming my lifting. And I dont live and die by my consumption of "gummy bears" just find it a fasinating idea of nutition, as I would of assumed Oatmeal to be the better suited carb.

    http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/derek9.htm

    and i have read Alan Aragon articles oh why it isnt necesary.


    A study published in Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):949-57, showed insulin had 3 times greater effect on amino acid transport. Researchers concluded that low amino acid availability, could limit the insulin’s effect on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.

    I believe one reason why there is some conflicting results can be found in research study published in Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11. In the study glycogen synthesis was increased from either, protein + carbs drink or simply increasing the carb intake, compared to the normal carb drink group. The protein plus carbs and the higher carb group, had a higher insulin response than the normal carb group.

    Carbohydrates are important post workout because of the hormonal changes they cause with insulin. IGF-1 releases when growth hormone and insulin are high. After a workout your insulin will be low, but your growth hormone levels should be high. By having a carb drink post workout, you will spike your insulin and cause the release of IGF-1 as a result. IGF-1 is extremely important in muscle growth. Another reason carbs are important is in controlling cortisol. Cortisol starts producing heavily near the end of a workout and we know cortisol production is blunted by spikes in insulin, which high carb intake causes.

    A study in J Appl Physiol. 1998 Oct;85(4):1544-55 showed differences in hormonal changes for days, between the placebo and those supplementing carbs and protein for pre and post workout meals. In this study, growth hormone and testosterone were elevated immediately post workout. On day one, growth hormone increased more for the supplemented group. Cortisol production post workout was blunted by the supplement group. IGF-1 was also increased for the supplement group on days 2 and 3. This study shows that what you eat before and after workout, can effect your hormonal response for multiple days.
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    Originally Posted by DG0126 View Post
    BROscience
    I see alot of it here. IGF that you are not injecting isn't going to affect muscle growth dumbass.
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    Snorkel loves talking about this...and he's a trained arguer.

    Are you having 100g carbs worth of honey on an completely empty stomach with nothing else?

    Also, if you are looking for those "hidden nutrients" that people tout about honey, the stuff in a bear jar is not going to help you. Get organic, with the comb.

    Actually, if you insist on eating some bumble bee by-products, you might as well just go buy some bee pollen. That actually looks like a health food on the label.
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    Ok, I'm a type 1 diabetic (insulin dependent) so how does this affect me?
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    Originally Posted by DG0126 View Post
    A study published in Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):949-57, showed insulin had 3 times greater effect on amino acid transport. Researchers concluded that low amino acid availability, could limit the insulin’s effect on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.
    Did you read that study? They used an insulin INFUSION to reach plasma levels of 900 mU/L!

    Originally Posted by DG0126 View Post
    I believe one reason why there is some conflicting results can be found in research study published in Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11. In the study glycogen synthesis was increased from either, protein + carbs drink or simply increasing the carb intake, compared to the normal carb drink group. The protein plus carbs and the higher carb group, had a higher insulin response than the normal carb group.
    Endurance athletes being glycogen depleted. Unless you are an endurance athlete or are doing high volume that needs to be repeated multiple times per day or consecutive days, glycogen depletion and speed of glycogen repletion are not significant issues. Adequate carb intake over the next 24+ hours matters more.

    Originally Posted by DG0126 View Post
    Carbohydrates are important post workout because of the hormonal changes they cause with insulin. IGF-1 releases when growth hormone and insulin are high. After a workout your insulin will be low, but your growth hormone levels should be high. By having a carb drink post workout, you will spike your insulin and cause the release of IGF-1 as a result. IGF-1 is extremely important in muscle growth. Another reason carbs are important is in controlling cortisol. Cortisol starts producing heavily near the end of a workout and we know cortisol production is blunted by spikes in insulin, which high carb intake causes.

    A study in J Appl Physiol. 1998 Oct;85(4):1544-55 showed differences in hormonal changes for days, between the placebo and those supplementing carbs and protein for pre and post workout meals. In this study, growth hormone and testosterone were elevated immediately post workout. On day one, growth hormone increased more for the supplemented group. Cortisol production post workout was blunted by the supplement group. IGF-1 was also increased for the supplement group on days 2 and 3. This study shows that what you eat before and after workout, can effect your hormonal response for multiple days.
    Protein 'spikes insulin' and has an anti-catabolic effect by itself. The effect of non-pharmacological serum hepatic IGF-1 on muscle growth beyond being perhaps permissive is debatable too. Aware yourself.

    Carbs are fine. A high amount or high GI carbs are not necessary.
    Last edited by in10city; 03-15-2010 at 09:53 AM.
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    Spiking insulin after a workout is NOT a necessity. It does help to get some extra carbs at this point to replace energy stores and up your overall calorie intake while bulking.

    However, if you were bulking it is most likely that you consumed an adequate meal before your workout. Unless you ran yourself into the ground for 2-3 hours for a workout, your insulin levels will still be sufficient for protein synthesis Post workout.

    Honey will work just fine though.
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    Insulin is only going to be anabolic at pharmacological doses administered via a poke in the arm. It has anti-catabolic effects and is only permissive when it comes to protein synthesis when an ample amount of protein is consumed in conjunction with. It actually doesn't take a high concentration to exert these effects.


    Oddly enough, up to the first 60 minutes post exercise, exercise induced translocation of GLUT-4 facilitates insulin INDEPENDENT uptake of glucose.

    Insulin spiking post workout is not necessary for the vast majority.
    Good post!

    Now you're here, what is your opinion on certain 'insulin mimickers' (ie. oxovanadium, Russian tarragon extract etc.) to mimick supraphysiological insulin levels?
    IIRC you need a 1000 fold increase to have any effect on sMPS. At first glance I would say in NO way they can mimick such insulin levels. But unfortunately I can't get any hold on the fulltexts of those studies, so I can't pick any definite conclusions.
    Would love to hear your opinion about this
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    Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    Good post!

    Now you're here, what is your opinion on certain 'insulin mimickers' (ie. oxovanadium, Russian tarragon extract etc.) to mimick supraphysiological insulin levels?
    IIRC you need a 1000 fold increase to have any effect on sMPS. At first glance I would say in NO way they can mimick such insulin levels. But unfortunately I can't get any hold on the fulltexts of those studies, so I can't pick any definite conclusions.
    Would love to hear your opinion about this
    not in10city obviously but they are most definitely snake oil
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    Originally Posted by RealMenDeadLift View Post
    not in10city obviously but they are most definitely snake oil
    I tend to agree, however they do have insulin mimicking effects.
    Big question is can they mimick a big enough increase of insulin to effect sMPS?
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    Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    I tend to agree, however they do have insulin mimicking effects.
    Big question is can they mimick a big enough increase of insulin to effect sMPS?
    not a chance
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    guess i have been living a lie... o well... guess the carbs from fast diguesting sugars isnt necessarily bad for me but probably arent helping like the BB guys who claim they are beneficial/crucial to jumpstart protein synthesis.

    Just curious... how does one person neg u 2000 points? lol?
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    Originally Posted by RealMenDeadLift View Post
    not a chance
    You've read data/fulltexts or are you just guessing?

    99% chance you're right when you're just guessing, but I'd like to see some real data before writing it off
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    Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    Good post!

    Now you're here, what is your opinion on certain 'insulin mimickers' (ie. oxovanadium, Russian tarragon extract etc.) to mimick supraphysiological insulin levels?
    IIRC you need a 1000 fold increase to have any effect on sMPS. At first glance I would say in NO way they can mimick such insulin levels. But unfortunately I can't get any hold on the fulltexts of those studies, so I can't pick any definite conclusions.
    Would love to hear your opinion about this
    Typical insulin mimickers / glucose disposal agents generally just affect insulin sensitivity and glucose disposal independant of insulin as opposed to jacking up insulin levels. VS / OV / BMOV really only works well on people with some degree of insulin resistance or pre / full on diabetics. Plus it can inhibit muscle amino uptake and it is a potential toxiciy risk at doses not far beyond the theraputic range. RT also only affects blood glucose levels in diabetics.

    Insulinotropic compounds like leucine and 4-Hydroxyisoleucine still won't reach anabolic levels when combined with carbs.
    Last edited by in10city; 03-15-2010 at 02:05 PM.
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    Originally Posted by DG0126 View Post
    guess i have been living a lie... o well... guess the carbs from fast diguesting sugars isnt necessarily bad for me but probably arent helping like the BB guys who claim they are beneficial/crucial to jumpstart protein synthesis.

    Just curious... how does one person neg u 2000 points? lol?
    mod neg
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    Originally Posted by RealMenDeadLift View Post
    mod neg
    LOL thanks bro... it's what i figured...
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    Typical insulin mimickers / glucose disposal agents generally just affect insulin sensitivity and glucose disposal independant of insulin as opposed to jacking up insulin levels. VS / OV / BMOV really only works well on people with some degree of insulin resistance or pre / full on diabetics. Plus it can inhibit muscle amino uptake and it is a potential toxiciy risk at doses not far beyond the theraputic range. RT also only affects blood glucose levels in diabetics.

    Insulinotropic compounds like leucine and 4-Hydroxyisoleucine still won't reach anabolic levels when combined with carbs.
    Thanx in10city!

    Excited to CEE when TT comes up with a OV product.
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    Originally Posted by Kabs View Post
    im just wondering if im being an idiot wih the honey stuff... aka adding it to coffee and tea and its acting the exact same way as plain old sugar
    I do so adding it to milk and grean tea.
    lately i tried to decrease the ammount of sugar intake so i started using honey instead.
    Originally Posted by tagun;
    Well of course honey is almost identical to plain old sugar. And yes, it's acting the very same way.
    But then again, what's wrong with plain old sugar?
    Honey is very healthy food. especially when bees feed on healthy planets like (back seed, Salvia, Ginger, rosemary) then you take the extract of those.
    Honey is not like sugar.
    Sugar is only sucrose.
    Honey is not just 2 simple sugars (simple carbohydrates) it also contains Amino acids, minerals, vitamins and still 5% unknown ingredints.
    Honey has been proven as immune system supporter (active against cancer)
    also probolis (bees use it to protect honey and inside cell from disintegration of intuders bodies that bees kill) this also has proven to boost immune system against cancer.

    Honey was mentioned in Quran as a cure for many disease.

    Now i understand post workout insuline spike to recover muscles.
    OK What about letting the body to use its storage of fat that i have some on my ABS.

    If I feed my muscles with carbohydrate immediately after workout does that let the fat storage as it is ?
    do you know what is the best way to get rid of fat without losing muscles? letting my body starving for carbs would make me lose muscles before losing fat !!!
    so what is the right way to get rid of fat without losing muscles?
    Last edited by NETPRO; 12-14-2010 at 03:58 AM.
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