How long can testicular atrophy be left?

[GGHT]

Hi all very quick intro and background

26 M been lifting ten years otherwise good health no allergies etc
Im one of those people who is affected very quickly by anything I take

In my "wisdom" decided to take trenbombs last Summer around June

They shut me down (aching receding balls) within a day and I was on them for no more than 4 days the zombie like effect was just too much

Even though I hadnt been on them long I realised the shutdown was pretty severe so took gaspari novedex which quickly brought my sex drive and erections back though my balls were still smaller I didnt really care for aesthetic reasons (didnt realise at the time novedex is more an estrogen blocker than a test booster)

I had no gyno etc but did have increased body hair growth and the obvious muscle increase

This is where I ****ed up I didnt take the gaspari for the whole bottle as my gf was complaining about my mood and to be honest it was concerening me

My balls regained most of their size

Fast forward around September time I decided to have another go with the tablets remaining

This time I halved the daily dosage and got to around 4 days again before I felt too depressed to continute on them
This time however I merely took a few of the novedex and carried on as before

Up until a few weeks ago my sex drive had been normal as had been facial hair growth and erection quality etc but one night my gf made a comment and said "youd better not be on those pills again" refering to my boys

Anyway since that I have felt a gradual decline in sex drive and hair growth and feeling of depression and anxiety I dont need to be told I was indiot for not taking proper PCT trust me I know but I mut stress I must have taken 10 days worth tops

So my question is having done days of research it seems HCG and possibly Clomid may be the answer do you think there is a cut off point where someone is just doomed to be on HRT?

Im trying to think positive and I know that my "cycle" compared to others was very light

Just to clarify I am going to the docs and having bloods done tommorow I assume to check for low test at the moment they are not peanut small but definately smaller than before

Also what are the chances of my doc or referred urologist etc prescribing my HCG assuming my test results come back low? Or a I going to have to go down the black market route as Id rather take the chance than being on HRT at the age of 26

EDIT

Just to add th last few days they have come back to life noticeably since I started taking 100mg Zinc and tribulus its just this self diagnosing **** is really hit and miss lol!

[N01SYtZ]

and this is why you use a serm

[GGHT]

Indeed but this is a problem that far more people experience than the posts here suggests unfortunatley

[On Fire]

GGHT, at this point I think you're beyond the help that a bunch of guys behind computer screens can give for the most part. I suggest you see an endocrinologist. Someone who's spent years understanding your hormones.

Clearly you took the risk and got burned for it, was it worth it?

[GGHT]

GGHT, at this point I think you're beyond the help that a bunch of guys behind computer screens can give for the most part. I suggest you see an endocrinologist. Someone who's spent years understanding your hormones.

Clearly you took the risk and got burned for it, was it worth it?

Cheers dude

Nah was it hell but funnily enough its only the last few weeks that any problems regarding libido etc have arisen

I have read other perhaps more gear orientated forums where they see no real problem with just running HCG for a month (which I can get easily)

[*NateDOGG*]

Cheers dude

Nah was it hell but funnily enough its only the last few weeks that any problems regarding libido etc have arisen

I have read other perhaps more gear orientated forums where they see no real problem with just running HCG for a month (which I can get easily)

I don't know how long ago your cycle was, and curious on how to dose it to cause you to shut down immediately.

You should definately go to a doctor and get a blood test done because it can be more serious then you think.

In regards to "the boys" you can try this,

"(HRT specialist):

"I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols."

I like to use 300IU twice a week, and it's easy to divide up from a 1500IU bottle"

Good luck.

[GGHT]

I don't know how long ago your cycle was, and curious on how to dose it to cause you to shut down immediately.

You should definately go to a doctor and get a blood test done because it can be more serious then you think.

In regards to "the boys" you can try this,

"(HRT specialist):

"I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols."

I like to use 300IU twice a week, and it's easy to divide up from a 1500IU bottle"

Good luck.

Thanks dude I have seen that also

[kbf1981]

4 days is not enough to make a big difference. Imo, it's in your head.

HCG will pump them up, but remember, clinical studies show that your body bounces back from occasional steroid use. Arnold, Louie, Sergio etc. never did PCT....and they're still here today, one even runs the world's 7th largest economy.

4 days is not enough to make a big difference, imo you're just worried and hence "feel" these effects that don't necessarily exist. I know it must seem real, but honestly, the impact of 3 Tren Bomb pills per day for 4 days is probably less than 1 x 1g injection of injectable test which is what many guys in gyms (especially in Wales) use on a weekly basis.

[put5onyo]

Small potatoes make the meat look bigger.

[jleewilliams]

Hi all very quick intro and background

26 M been lifting ten years otherwise good health no allergies etc
Im one of those people who is affected very quickly by anything I take

In my "wisdom" decided to take trenbombs last Summer around June

They shut me down (aching receding balls) within a day and I was on them for no more than 4 days the zombie like effect was just too much

Even though I hadnt been on them long I realised the shutdown was pretty severe so took gaspari novedex which quickly brought my sex drive and erections back though my balls were still smaller I didnt really care for aesthetic reasons (didnt realise at the time novedex is more an estrogen blocker than a test booster)

I had no gyno etc but did have increased body hair growth and the obvious muscle increase

This is where I ****ed up I didnt take the gaspari for the whole bottle as my gf was complaining about my mood and to be honest it was concerening me

My balls regained most of their size

Fast forward around September time I decided to have another go with the tablets remaining

This time I halved the daily dosage and got to around 4 days again before I felt too depressed to continute on them
This time however I merely took a few of the novedex and carried on as before

Up until a few weeks ago my sex drive had been normal as had been facial hair growth and erection quality etc but one night my gf made a comment and said "youd better not be on those pills again" refering to my boys

Anyway since that I have felt a gradual decline in sex drive and hair growth and feeling of depression and anxiety I dont need to be told I was indiot for not taking proper PCT trust me I know but I mut stress I must have taken 10 days worth tops

So my question is having done days of research it seems HCG and possibly Clomid may be the answer do you think there is a cut off point where someone is just doomed to be on HRT?

Im trying to think positive and I know that my "cycle" compared to others was very light

Just to clarify I am going to the docs and having bloods done tommorow I assume to check for low test at the moment they are not peanut small but definately smaller than before

Also what are the chances of my doc or referred urologist etc prescribing my HCG assuming my test results come back low? Or a I going to have to go down the black market route as Id rather take the chance than being on HRT at the age of 26

EDIT

Just to add th last few days they have come back to life noticeably since I started taking 100mg Zinc and tribulus its just this self diagnosing **** is really hit and miss lol!

I was in a similar situation. Low sex drive, energy, etc. had blood work done 2 weeks ago by a urologist. Test levels came back 377 ng/dl This is in the normal range but still low for a 28 yr old. He gave my test cypionate injection and referred me to endocrinoligist. I'm not sure if I will remain on the shots or what will happen once I see the new doc, but for now I can tell a HUGE difference in my workouts, sex drive, work and life in general since taking the injections

[GGHT]

I was in a similar situation. Low sex drive, energy, etc. had blood work done 2 weeks ago by a urologist. Test levels came back 377 ng/dl This is in the normal range but still low for a 28 yr old. He gave my test cypionate injection and referred me to endocrinoligist. I'm not sure if I will remain on the shots or what will happen once I see the new doc, but for now I can tell a HUGE difference in my workouts, sex drive, work and life in general since taking the injections

Thanks for the reply

Supposedly mild depression and anxiety will "shut you down" to a certain extent hence the reason why a lot of depresed men have no sex drive it then becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy I suppose

Anyway ill post my bloods up when I get them thanks for the support guys

[SeanEH]

Also what are the chances of my doc or referred urologist etc prescribing my HCG assuming my test results come back low? Or a I going to have to go down the black market route as Id rather take the chance than being on HRT at the age of 26

Your doctor isn't going to prescribe HCG, and I don't think getting it through other sources is a good idea. There's no reason for you to take it. If you were on cycle and weren't going to PCT for a month or two, then sure, you'd take it until then to minimize atrophy. But you're not on cycle. All HCG would do for you now is suppress you.

[GGHT]

Your doctor isn't going to prescribe HCG, and I don't think getting it through other sources is a good idea. There's no reason for you to take it. If you were on cycle and weren't going to PCT for a month or two, then sure, you'd take it until then to minimize atrophy. But you're not on cycle. All HCG would do for you now is suppress you.

Yeah think your right as just been to the docs told him everything

He said he has several long term steroid users as patients with symptoms that I said I have but the difference is the amount of trens I took over the time I took them (ten days max) would not have caused long term damage to the hormonal system

He exained the boys and said everything was fine and I had my blood taken with the results monday

I asked him what would give him cause for concern and he said it was less scrotum size and more actual testicle size in his words "if they were the size of almonds id be concerened"

He seemed to be of the opinion that my general state of low mood and anxiety is caused by certain factors in my life at the moment which in turn is affecting my libido and mood etc not the other way around

Ill keep u guys updated as I know this is much more common than posts would indicate as there a lot of ignorant PH users out there (like me lol)

Anyways im kind of relieved to be told there isnt an immediate cause for concern although of course the results next Monday will confirm

Also I asked to have a look at the last test results I had in ore detail I didnt notice any mention of free testoterone etc but I was 16 on the scale and it indicated that the "normal" range was between 8-32 so right bang in middle

I must emphasise that this was taken around 18 months ago when my circadian rhythym was all over the shop and I had the same slow facial hair growth lack of libido etc

[GGHT]

Just a quick update to let u guys know that four days after taking 100g of Zinc per day I can feel my libido coing back slowly my depression and anxiety lifting and my motivation and general zest for life returning

Is it a placebo?

Possibly although this study confirms zinc depletion causes both lowered testosterone and secondary testicular atrophy plus lowered zinc is a well known cause of low test in men and exhbited some of the symptoms (impairment of hearing libido etc)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8875519

If you do a quick forum search you will see numerous postings basically stating the same thing

Before anyone chimes up with the oft stated fact that zinc is in everything you eat that may be the case but my diet latrly has been ****ty and my multi doesnt contain it

I have a physical job (rendering and plastering) so I will definatley be keeping an eye on this in the future as the last few weeks have not been much fun

I not out of the woods yet and my nuts still have a decent way to go before coming back but im confident another few weeks and all will be well
When I run out of chelated Zinc I going to buy ZMA

[jcdsckbher]

GenBrain This program claims to be able to use binaural beat technology to enhance your Brain Power. It charges far less money than other programs, which made me even more skeptical about its effectiveness at first. At least there was a money back guarantee, so I went ahead to buy it and see whether it would work for me. There is a forum in the membership area that allows me to interact with Morry and the other users, so there is always a community of people you can discuss your experience with.

[nbf83754]

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[alex1798]

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