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  1. #1
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    Calories matter more then carb intake while dieting?

    Hey everyone, just had a question and hope for some clarification.

    Im currently dieting and my current Ratio is 35%C-45%P-20%F with 2100 cals, 180 carbs, 235g of P, and 46 g of fats.

    I Know that loosing weight depends on cals in vs. cals out but I am curious if it is all that bad if my carb in take were to exceed the 180g? I normally try to cut off carbs from sources such as oats, wheat bread, fruit, etc. at around 170g or so, so that I have a 10g buffer for carbs that would be in foods in my last meal or two such as natty pb or protein powder. However, I sometimes exceed my carb number, but never more then 5-10g but still have my cals at my 2100 or whatever number it should be.

    Also, once in a while I may have exceeded all of my macros by anywhere from 1-10g, rarely above this, and my calories are still at or around my number, normally just below. How can this be? Protein and carbs have 4 cals and fats have 9. Shouldnt never happen that you could exceed some of your macros and still be at or below cal level?

    Thanks!
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  2. #2
    Registered User co1e_train's Avatar
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    Anyone?
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    Calories don't always reflect their macronutrient breakdown on product labels. They can round the number and things like fiber aren't accounted for. So if you are using something like FitDay and entering your own foods then the calories will not match your P/C/F numbers exactly.
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  4. #4
    Registered User co1e_train's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by thepacman View Post
    Calories don't always reflect their macronutrient breakdown on product labels. They can round the number and things like fiber aren't accounted for. So if you are using something like FitDay and entering your own foods then the calories will not match your P/C/F numbers exactly.
    Ok thanks man, I figured that was probably the case.

    Now lets say you hit your PCF macros but were still 200 cals short, would you eat more carbs? or just protein and fats.

    I guess another question I have is that say I take in 2100 cals, will I lose more fat faster/more effectively because of having my carbs set at a lower ration percentage? Or does it depend most on calories in vs calories out? I would think this would be false because if you lost fat more effectively the lower carbs you have, then wouldnt everyone just go extremely low carb/ no carb if dieting?

    Thanks

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    The MOST important number when dieting is the calorie number. This is where weight loss comes from. The proper macro nutrient ratio helps skew the WEIGHT loss to more FAT loss. Carbohydrates and protein have 4 cals per gram. Fat is 9 cals per gram. First figure out how many calories you should have in your diet THEN figure the ratio that fits. Then you count ALL of the macros from every source to add up to your preset ratio for the day. Carbs are not the enemy when dieting......keep those carbs as high as you can while maintaining the minimum levels for protein and fat.
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    imo, ignore the calories, just worry about hitting your macros. if you've hit your p/c/f numbers then you are done for the day, regardless of how many calories fitday says you have consumed.
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    The MOST important number when dieting is the calorie number. This is where weight loss comes from. The proper macro nutrient ratio helps skew the WEIGHT loss to more FAT loss. Carbohydrates and protein have 4 cals per gram. Fat is 9 cals per gram. First figure out how many calories you should have in your diet THEN figure the ratio that fits. Then you count ALL of the macros from every source to add up to your preset ratio for the day. Carbs are not the enemy when dieting......keep those carbs as high as you can while maintaining the minimum levels for protein and fat.
    I thought this was the case.

    What is optimal levels of protein and fat while dieting? Is it 1.5 g of protein per lbs? .4 g of fat?

    My macros currently are 235g of P, 180g of C, 45g of Fat = 45%p 35% 20%f. Thats on a low carb day at 2100 cals.

    High carb day i up it by 600 cals and lower p to 1g per lbs. I currently way 193 or so.
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  8. #8
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    Whether you count calories or macros is really a matter of semantics. I do NOT count calories. I find it easier (and more precise) to focus on consuming the right amount of protein, carbs, and fat.

    Sure, calories matter, but calories are a less precise way of looking at the amount of the macronutrient providing those calories. If it were calories that mattered most, then you could diet on pizza and ice cream as long as the calories were right.
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    Originally Posted by Dr Clay View Post
    If it were calories that mattered most, then you could diet on pizza and ice cream as long as the calories were right.
    Well, its certainly possible to keep pizza and ice cream in one's diet and have great success.....

    But, just to clear up the confusion over what might sound like conflicting statements......if you are tracking macro ratios, you ARE tracking calories. The only thing I write down is the protein/carb/fat content of each meal, but at the end of the day I know my calories with simple math. Calorie deficit is all that is needed for weight loss. Specific macro ratios help skew that weight loss to FAT loss rather than muscle loss.
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Well, its certainly possible to keep pizza and ice cream in one's diet and have great success.....

    But, just to clear up the confusion over what might sound like conflicting statements......if you are tracking macro ratios, you ARE tracking calories. The only thing I write down is the protein/carb/fat content of each meal, but at the end of the day I know my calories with simple math. Calorie deficit is all that is needed for weight loss. Specific macro ratios help skew that weight loss to FAT loss rather than muscle loss.
    Thanks for the clarification Oak.

    I guess the only trick to it, so to say, is figuring out what macro percentages work best for ones body.

    Im curious, what is your "rule of thumb" as it were, when it comes to deciding your macros percentages? What is optimal amount Protein while dieting? 1.5 lb per bw? fat? carb? I know fat is especially important so to keep hormones in check. Im currently around 45-50g or so but am wondering what some of you guys follow.

    Thanks!
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  11. #11
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    Macro's and cals are both important if you ask me. Since we are looking to drop BF and hang on to muscle we have to keep in some carbs. Your macro's are good but don't write them in stone for your entire cut. Your body composition and your moods will reflect the days you need to adjust your macros and include refeeds.

    I'm able to keep my cal numbers in check and play with my carbs and fats most days to reflect my needs and moods. Protein I try to keep over 200g/day but will drop that to 120-150/day on refeeds and I also keep fats down to around 15% on refeeds. My normal ratios are around 40-50%p / 30-40%c / 20-25%f ... currently cutting around 1900cal/day

    Hope this helps
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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    T
    Im curious, what is your "rule of thumb" as it were, when it comes to deciding your macros percentages? What is optimal amount Protein while dieting? !

    My general rule of thumb (a good starting place) is 1.25g protein, .35g of fat per lb of bodyweight and the rest carbs.
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    My general rule of thumb (a good starting place) is 1.25g protein, .35g of fat per lb of bodyweight and the rest carbs.
    Thanks oak, my protein amount was pretty much the same when I multiplied my bw times 1.25. My fat intake was less, about 20g or so when I multiplied by .35. I am currently doing 45g and when multiplied by .35 it came out as about 67g of fat. With that being said, should I up my fat and then down my carbs? At 2100 cals on low days my macros are 235g of P, 45g of F, 180g of Carb. Do you guys think I would lose bf at a better rate if i made the switch?

    Originally Posted by Barn01 View Post
    Macro's and cals are both important if you ask me. Since we are looking to drop BF and hang on to muscle we have to keep in some carbs. Your macro's are good but don't write them in stone for your entire cut. Your body composition and your moods will reflect the days you need to adjust your macros and include refeeds.

    I'm able to keep my cal numbers in check and play with my carbs and fats most days to reflect my needs and moods. Protein I try to keep over 200g/day but will drop that to 120-150/day on refeeds and I also keep fats down to around 15% on refeeds. My normal ratios are around 40-50%p / 30-40%c / 20-25%f ... currently cutting around 1900cal/day

    Hope this helps
    Sure does barn. My ratios are in the same percentage on my low cal days of 2100. I have never dropped my protein that low before though. I'm assuming you do that to fit more carbs in during refeeds?

    Thanks fella's
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    If you play it right you can even hit your macro's and hit even a lower cal count than needed for fat loss. Is long as you hit your macro's you will remain healthy, and burn fat. Even if the cals are lower than you planed, you will be feeding your body what it needs and in the proper ratio. Just counting cals you don't know were you are at for the ratio.
    Yes I agree FitDay or ProTrack will help you out greatly with this.
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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    I'm assuming you do that to fit more carbs in during refeeds?
    You are correct!
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    My general rule of thumb (a good starting place) is 1.25g protein, .35g of fat per lb of bodyweight and the rest carbs.
    wow. that'd put me @ 236 protein, 240 carb, 66 fat

    i'm doing 300 or a lil more pro, 60-70 fat and 120-150carb depending
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    Originally Posted by Barn01 View Post
    Macro's and cals are both important if you ask me. Since we are looking to drop BF and hang on to muscle we have to keep in some carbs. Your macro's are good but don't write them in stone for your entire cut. Your body composition and your moods will reflect the days you need to adjust your macros and include refeeds.

    I'm able to keep my cal numbers in check and play with my carbs and fats most days to reflect my needs and moods. Protein I try to keep over 200g/day but will drop that to 120-150/day on refeeds and I also keep fats down to around 15% on refeeds. My normal ratios are around 40-50%p / 30-40%c / 20-25%f ... currently cutting around 1900cal/day

    Hope this helps
    this is almost like instinctive training...only on the dieting side. i love doing this personally...I would say unless you're aware of how your body responds dont attempt it though...esp first timers
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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    Thanks oak, my protein amount was pretty much the same when I multiplied my bw times 1.25. My fat intake was less, about 20g or so when I multiplied by .35. I am currently doing 45g and when multiplied by .35 it came out as about 67g of fat. With that being said, should I up my fat and then down my carbs? At 2100 cals on low days my macros are 235g of P, 45g of F, 180g of Carb. Do you guys think I would lose bf at a better rate if i made the switch?
    s
    Like I said, this is general starting point. You have to play around and see. 45g of fat is bit too low IMOP at your bodyweight....but 2100 cals is also a bit low. How fast are you losing at this intake? To answer your question directly though....if youre not getting good results, I might try a touch fewer carbs and a little more fat. Fat is important hormonally. And it depends on how carb sensitive you are. But, I know others would have no problem taking you a little lower on the fat too. So, again, you have to play around and see.

    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    wow. that'd put me @ 236 protein, 240 carb, 66 fat

    i'm doing 300 or a lil more pro, 60-70 fat and 120-150carb depending

    I know we have had this conversation before, but I still think your protein is too high. Its just a waste to keep it that high. Those are good carbs you could be eating and feeling stronger in the gym, keeping the metabolism revving, etc. Right now, youre most likely converting a lot of that protein to glucose, which is just inefficient.
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Like I said, this is general starting point. You have to play around and see. 45g of fat is bit too low IMOP at your bodyweight....but 2100 cals is also a bit low. How fast are you losing at this intake? To answer your question directly though....if youre not getting good results, I might try a touch fewer carbs and a little more fat. Fat is important hormonally. And it depends on how carb sensitive you are. But, I know others would have no problem taking you a little lower on the fat too. So, again, you have to play around and see.
    You see I would agree with you when you say that 2100 cals is a bit low. I had it set at 2300 for a few weeks but then I felt that my bf loss was plateauing so I dropped cals and kept my ratios the same.

    But heres the kicker, I believe I may have had to drop cals because my carbs may have been too high. At 2300 cals i was taking in like 200g of carbs and now at 2100 cals its 180g. Should I drop to 150g of carbs and add more fats and protein to up cals back to 2300? I would agree with you that 2100 is low, especially for 19 year old 192lb male. Im also not sure how carb sensitive I am except that I think I can gain weight easily as I have before, albeit more fat then muscle at times, and I also can tell, I think, that when I eat carbs I feel like I can eat a TON which would mean I could be insulin sensitive right?

    haha Im not panicked, even though I may seem like it, Im not preparing for a show I just really enjoy bodybuilding and I want to do things right.

    I know I end about every post with this but I truly appreciate all of your guys input and help, you all are very educated and I value your opinion greatly.
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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    But heres the kicker, I believe I may have had to drop cals because my carbs may have been too high. At 2300 cals i was taking in like 200g of carbs and now at 2100 cals its 180g. Should I drop to 150g of carbs and add more fats and protein to up cals back to 2300? .
    Try it. What have you got to lose? If you dont lose any weight, drop the cals again. You are refeeding as well, right?
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Like I said, this is general starting point. You have to play around and see. 45g of fat is bit too low IMOP at your bodyweight....but 2100 cals is also a bit low. How fast are you losing at this intake? To answer your question directly though....if youre not getting good results, I might try a touch fewer carbs and a little more fat. Fat is important hormonally. And it depends on how carb sensitive you are. But, I know others would have no problem taking you a little lower on the fat too. So, again, you have to play around and see.




    I know we have had this conversation before, but I still think your protein is too high. Its just a waste to keep it that high. Those are good carbs you could be eating and feeling stronger in the gym, keeping the metabolism revving, etc. Right now, youre most likely converting a lot of that protein to glucose, which is just inefficient.
    I hear ya brother trust me I do. Problem with me is carbs make me SO much hungrier (seriously). Protein and fats keep me full so much longer....I also don't see the point in continually upping carbs on a bulk either. There has to be a threshold where that is a waste as well. If protein is kept at say 300 and carbs at 250 I feel (maybe its just me I dunno) that a higher fat intake makes more sense bulking or dieting.
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    BTW... not to take over the thread.....but "Beast" AKA Derek Charlebois seems to take almost the exact same approach to bulking that I do:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=120964341 check his macros out...just sayin!
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    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    I hear ya brother trust me I do. Problem with me is carbs make me SO much hungrier (seriously). Protein and fats keep me full so much longer....I also don't see the point in continually upping carbs on a bulk either. There has to be a threshold where that is a waste as well. If protein is kept at say 300 and carbs at 250 I feel (maybe its just me I dunno) that a higher fat intake makes more sense bulking or dieting.
    Why would there be a "threshold" to carbs? Once you have met the necessary requirements for protein (enough for positive protein synthesis) and for fat (reaching optimal hormone levels and other dietary needs), then filling the gap to meet your energy demands would logically come from carbs. Carbs are the body's preferred fuel and can most efficiently be used to fuel workouts. Kinda like watering down your gasoline in your car. Well, yea....it still gets you from point A to B, but your not getting the most performance.

    Doesnt matter who you point to that does this or that......its all just guesswork anyways. For everyone that eats this way...there's 10 that eat another way. We're really debating what's optimal.....that last 2% or whatever of optimal......and everyone has their opinion. This is just mine. When nuts come to crack....lift heavy, eat enough to recover and get your rest.
    Last edited by AustrianOakJr; 03-08-2010 at 07:23 PM.
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Try it. What have you got to lose? If you dont lose any weight, drop the cals again. You are refeeding as well, right?
    Okay guys I adjusted my macros, tell me what me think.

    Upped cals back to 2300 cals
    Ratio: 45%-30%-25% (P,C,F)
    Macros: 260g of P 170g of C 60g of Fat.

    Okay, so Oak you were talking to someone earlier in this thread about how protein was too high and I would say that would be my case here as i weigh 192.

    So should I do this? Or should I follow what you were saying earlier oak by multiplying protein amount by .25 and fat by .3?

    Thanks guys
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Why would there be a "threshold" to carbs? Once you have met the necessary requirements for protein (enough for positive protein synthesis) and for fat (reaching optimal hormone levels and other dietary needs), then filling the gap to meet your energy demands would logically come from carbs. Carbs are the body's preferred fuel and can most efficiently be used to fuel workouts. Kinda like watering down your gasoline in your car. Well, yea....it still gets you from point A to B, but your not getting the most performance.

    Doesnt matter who you point to that does this or that......its all just guesswork anyways. For everyone that eats this way...there's 10 that eat another way. We're really debating what's optimal.....that last 2% or whatever of optimal......and everyone has their opinion. This is just mine. When nuts come to crack....lift heavy, eat enough to recover and get your rest.
    Carbs aren't an essential macro...we can live without them provided protein and fat are high enough....haha but yeah makes sense. I'm going to put the higher carbs theory to the test Starting September to see how I react to it. Bloated face here I come
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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    Okay guys I adjusted my macros, tell me what me think.

    Upped cals back to 2300 cals
    Ratio: 45%-30%-25% (P,C,F)
    Macros: 260g of P 170g of C 60g of Fat.

    Okay, so Oak you were talking to someone earlier in this thread about how protein was too high and I would say that would be my case here as i weigh 192.

    So should I do this? Or should I follow what you were saying earlier oak by multiplying protein amount by .25 and fat by .3?

    Thanks guys
    I say run with it and see how you do. Protein might be a touch high, but I would say on your next stall, just bump protein down by 15g.

    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    Carbs aren't an essential macro...we can live without them provided protein and fat are high enough....haha but yeah makes sense. I'm going to put the higher carbs theory to the test Starting September to see how I react to it. Bloated face here I come
    Going back to my car analogies (I dont know I like these b/c im a car guy). A race car doesnt need race fuel to run......its not essential to starting the engine. But, you arent going to get anywhere near max performance running on 89 octane.
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    I say run with it and see how you do. Protein might be a touch high, but I would say on your next stall, just bump protein down by 15g.
    Ill run with it. Since you think protein is a tad high should I lower it a bit, by like the 15 or so you suggested, and add more carbs to keep cals at 2300? Or just keep protein levels at the 260 range to keep cals up and keep carbs around 150. Either it doesnt matter to me, I just ask for your opinion. I agree with you that more carbs is better for energy and workouts etc but in your experienced opinion your thought.
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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    Ill run with it. Since you think protein is a tad high should I lower it a bit, by like the 15 or so you suggested, and add more carbs to keep cals at 2300? Or just keep protein levels at the 260 range to keep cals up and keep carbs around 150. Either it doesnt matter to me, I just ask for your opinion. I agree with you that more carbs is better for energy and workouts etc but in your experienced opinion your thought.
    You are kind of splitting hairs, but yes......IMOP (which is an educated guess), I would say it would be more optimal to take that 15g as carbs rather than protein.
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    I say run with it and see how you do. Protein might be a touch high, but I would say on your next stall, just bump protein down by 15g.



    Going back to my car analogies (I dont know I like these b/c im a car guy). A race car doesnt need race fuel to run......its not essential to starting the engine. But, you arent going to get anywhere near max performance running on 89 octane.
    we are just at different ends of the spectrum it seems on this subject. I would seriously like to bulk next Sept trying a high protein high carb and moderate to lowish fat intake. Just enough dietary fat to keep test levels up. Then I will truly know what's better for my own body. I've tried just about everything else lol
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    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    we are just at different ends of the spectrum it seems on this subject. I would seriously like to bulk next Sept trying a high protein high carb and moderate to lowish fat intake. Just enough dietary fat to keep test levels up. Then I will truly know what's better for my own body. I've tried just about everything else lol
    I love a good experiment

    You'll have to let us know how it compares to past bulking ratios.


    As for the instinctive eating, yes you're right but I'm a believer that your body will tell you what it needs if you learn to listen to it. So I view it as a compromise. I know how I need to look and when I need to lose more fat or fill back out. Since that is the primary goal I keep that in mind. That takes care of the daily cals and refeed days. As for the daily macro's I just keep the carbs modest, protein over 200 and adjust fats based on cravings.

    I agree the more carbs I eat the more I want!! Subbing some fats for carbs keeps the cravings down. It feels like less food but keeps me calmer and lower cortisol levels.
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