Deadlift under/over grip

[Marius_Ursus]

Double overhand with a hook grip for me.

[BuckSpin]

I definitely WON'T be doing the under/over grip. I partially ruptured my brachialis, triceps, and a couple of forearm tendons in the elbow doing drywall a while back. There's NO WAY my elbow would be able to sustain the load with the over/under grip..

How did you do this? How were you holding the sheet? How many sheets?

FWIW, this guy:



Generally regarded as having some of the best guns in pro BB, completely tore his bicep.........moving a TV set. Just sayin'....

This thread could easy segue into what is & is not the "safest" way to work a muscle group. Examples: leg extensions are an open chain movement and therefore far worse on the knee joint that any kind of squats, or wide grip, elbows flared bench press is far worse than close grip, elbows rolled, and so on.

[Stenn]

If you dont believe me about the danger to the biceps maybe this guy will convince you. http://videos.bodybuilding.com/video...-demonstration

I actually got very little from that video other than a guy who says he doesn't use an alternate grip because it's uncomfortable and he heard it was bad. So, instead of relying on him, I did my own research. I punched: deadlift "bicep tear" into YouTube and got an eye-full. In general, every guy who tore his bicep while deadlifting tore the one on his under hand side. Uh-oh...

On the other hand, they also were all lifting over 700 lb. I only lift 400 so I have to wonder how big a risk this really is for me personally.

Another interesting point comes from this video:

Note how he completes the lift, his head jerks down and to his left (presumably when the bicep tears), he then looks down at his left bicep, and finally he drops the bar.

This sequence of events leads me to believe that the guy didn't need the bicep to keep that 733 pound bar in the air. If he didn't need it to keep the bar in the air, then why did it tear? I've heard one theory that biceps tear during deadlifts because of a tendency to try to curl the bar to get it up. I'm not sure what the world record curl weight is, but I'm guessing it's somewhere well below 700 pounds. So, what happens when a very strong man attempts to curl 700 pounds? The bar doesn't go up, that's for certain. But if the man is strong enough, he's got a good chance of ripping his bicep off the bone.

Anyway, that's my hair-brained theory of the week. Clearly there's a risk in deadlifting with an alternate grip, but I'm still not real sure how great that risk is for me, personally, given my relative lack of strength and my awareness that curling the bar is a no-no. And finally, for every guy who ever tore his bicep deadlifting, I'm sure there are thousands who didn't.

[Marius_Ursus]

Only 400?

Dude.

Slacker.

[KLR650]

I actually got very little from that video other than a guy who says he doesn't use an alternate grip because it's uncomfortable and he heard it was bad. So, instead of relying on him, I did my own research. I punched: deadlift "bicep tear" into YouTube and got an eye-full. In general, every guy who tore his bicep while deadlifting tore the one on his under hand side. Uh-oh...

On the other hand, they also were all lifting over 700 lb. I only lift 400 so I have to wonder how big a risk this really is for me personally.

Another interesting point comes from this video:

Note how he completes the lift, his head jerks down and to his left (presumably when the bicep tears), he then looks down at his left bicep, and finally he drops the bar.

This sequence of events leads me to believe that the guy didn't need the bicep to keep that 733 pound bar in the air. If he didn't need it to keep the bar in the air, then why did it tear? I've heard one theory that biceps tear during deadlifts because of a tendency to try to curl the bar to get it up. I'm not sure what the world record curl weight is, but I'm guessing it's somewhere well below 700 pounds. So, what happens when a very strong man attempts to curl 700 pounds? The bar doesn't go up, that's for certain. But if the man is strong enough, he's got a good chance of ripping his bicep off the bone.

Anyway, that's my hair-brained theory of the week. Clearly there's a risk in deadlifting with an alternate grip, but I'm still not real sure how great that risk is for me, personally, given my relative lack of strength and my awareness that curling the bar is a no-no. And finally, for every guy who ever tore his bicep deadlifting, I'm sure there are thousands who didn't.

Like another person said, this could be argued until the cows came home. I don't doubt that those who tear their biceps do it because they did try to curl it as you suggest. But for someone with prexisting elbow damage I'm inclined to not tempt fate.
When I was getting my rehab for my elbow problems the doc said the elbow is probably the strongest joint in the body, excepting the SI joint. So I'm guessing if something is going to let go it's going to be in the shoulder not the elbow.

Again, it seemed like an incredibly counterintuitive way to do a deadlift, so I thought I'd ask. I sure learned a heck of a lot in the process.

[...Kennedy]

I actually got very little from that video other than a guy who says he doesn't use an alternate grip because it's uncomfortable and he heard it was bad. So, instead of relying on him, I did my own research. I punched: deadlift "bicep tear" into YouTube and got an eye-full. In general, every guy who tore his bicep while deadlifting tore the one on his under hand side. Uh-oh...

On the other hand, they also were all lifting over 700 lb. I only lift 400 so I have to wonder how big a risk this really is for me personally.

Exactly my thinking, PLUS one other major factor that seldom seems to come up in these discussions about torn muscles is, most of the victims are often heavily using gear that builds muscle size and strength faster than tendon/joint strength.

Assuming decent form is used, how many 100% completely natural trainers actually tear biceps doing deadlifts? Or quads or pecs, for that matter?

[KLR650]

How did you do this? How were you holding the sheet? How many sheets?

<SNIPPED>

It was only a single 3/4" sheet (about 75 lbs). I tore the heck out of my forearm by picking the sheet up palms down and reverse curling it up so that I could grab the underside and put it in place. The brachioradialis let go when I caught the underside, but like a moron I kept on doing it, finally the other muscles gave out.

I was very impressed by how effective the PT was in restoring the joint. 3 months of friction massage, electrostim, and ice wraps and at least I could do my office job without pain. Took about another 6 months before it no longer bothered me.

[Marius_Ursus]

For what it's worth, and this is - mind you - not at all a bodybuilding approach, but for combat-oriented training there's a general recommendation of trageting 2.5 times your bodyweight for deadlifts.

I'm nowhere near that yet, but I plan on leveling off when I hit that target. Double overhand hook grip should be fine at that weight.

Disregard this post if it doesn't apply to your training philosophy. Just wanted to throw that out there as a goal-oriented answer to the question.

[KLR650]

Exactly my thinking, PLUS one other major factor that seldom seems to come up in these discussions about torn muscles is, most of the victims are often heavily using gear that builds muscle size and strength faster than tendon/joint strength.

Assuming decent form is used, how many 100% completely natural trainers actually tear biceps doing deadlifts? Or quads or pecs, for that matter?

Can you actually build tendon strength? Can you build joint strength? That's not an accusation, but a question more than anything. It was my understanding that the tendons and ligaments are pretty well established once completely formed. Is that a false assumption?

[Marius_Ursus]

Can you actually build tendon strength? Can you build joint strength? That's not an accusation, but a question more than anything. It was my understanding that the tendons and ligaments are pretty well established once completely formed. Is that a false assumption?

Oh, heck yeah. The Chinese have been using a "tendon strengthening method" as an integral part of chi gung for centuries. Resistance training strengthens tendons and ligaments considerably. Kettlebells and barbells are the main reason I don't have floppy joints any more.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Can you actually build tendon strength? Can you build joint strength? That's not an accusation, but a question more than anything. It was my understanding that the tendons and ligaments are pretty well established once completely formed. Is that a false assumption?

Yes, but it is a much slower process.

[GnomusMaximus]

Wait, just so I can clarify things the premise here is that using an oposing grip leads to bicep tears in the underhand arm? I find that hard to believe.

[Stenn]

Only 400?

Dude.

Slacker.

LOL Screw you!

But for someone with prexisting elbow damage I'm inclined to not tempt fate.

Then don't. Lots of us here in the O35 compromise our training to accomodate one injury or another. The important part is to do as much as you can with what you've got and to never give up.

Again, it seemed like an incredibly counterintuitive way to do a deadlift, so I thought I'd ask. I sure learned a heck of a lot in the process.

Yeah, it seems strange at first, but it works so well it's hard to deny the benefit of it. Try it some time if your able, You'll see what I mean.

And yeah, I learned a lot too.

I'm nowhere near that yet, but I plan on leveling off when I hit that target. Double overhand hook grip should be fine at that weight.

If you can lift anywhere near 2.5x your bodyweight with a hook grip then you're a better man than I am. But then, you probably knew that already.

Wait, just so I can clarify things the premise here is that using an oposing grip leads to bicep tears in the underhand arm? I find that hard to believe.

I did too, but I'm getting convinced that it's true. I'd be relieved if someone would post a video or recount a tale of someone tearing a bicep on the over-hand side.

[Stenn]

Wow... I just took another look at the Jens Grau video in full-screen mode. You can actually see his bicep climb up into his shirt sleeve well before he locks out the lift. Eeewww! But again, it's clear that he didn't need the bicep to finish the lift.

[Stenn]

Ok, here's another interesting video. This guy curls 125kg and ends up tearing his bicep. (That's 275 pounds to the kilo-challenged out there. Oh, and his form is abysmal.) So, if a guy can tear his bicep with 275 pounds of tension on the tendon, how easy might it be for someone to tear a bicep tendon when deadlifting 300+ because they were trying to curl the bar with their under-hand arm? Granted, most deadlifters won't be dancing and bouncing around like this character, but the potential for harm is still there, especially for those deadlifters that I've seen who DO dance around like this guy.

[KLR650]

It sucks that he tore the bicep - really my hearts out to him. But I'd be less surprised if he ruptured a disc as well. That's not curling, that's a terrible half hang clean.

[Korr]

Like another person said, this could be argued until the cows came home. I don't doubt that those who tear their biceps do it because they did try to curl it as you suggest. But for someone with prexisting elbow damage I'm inclined to not tempt fate.
When I was getting my rehab for my elbow problems the doc said the elbow is probably the strongest joint in the body, excepting the SI joint. So I'm guessing if something is going to let go it's going to be in the shoulder not the elbow.

Again, it seemed like an incredibly counterintuitive way to do a deadlift, so I thought I'd ask. I sure learned a heck of a lot in the process.

Just use a hook grip. Problem solved.

[BrotherWolf]

Unless you use straps or some kind of device like versa grip .. to hold on to the bar at heavy weight it becomes a necessity

The bar tends to move away from you risking much worse than a strained or torn bicep a rare occurrence due to flexed biceps but It could happen... in the effort to squeeze out a heavy rep some people might flex the bicep so slightly but enough to tear the bicep

[BrotherWolf]

Well I'll talk it over with the doc.

That'll do it

[BrotherWolf]

Tearing a bicep on a DL would seem hard to me especially in an over under grip as you would pretty much have to flex the elbow to put undue strain on the biceps and an over under grip would be a better way to keep from flexing.

We have a winner ....

[Marius_Ursus]

If you can lift anywhere near 2.5x your bodyweight with a hook grip then you're a better man than I am. But then, you probably knew that already.

I gave some thought to that after I wrote it. I thought that sounded a little ungodly. Turns out it's 2x, not 2.5...still be hell on the thumbs, but with my lifestyle, I'm more than a little used to different parts of my body feeling like hamburger.

[Karl_Hungus]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the over/under put you at risk for a bicep tear until I mentioned it here and nearly got laughed off the forum. I'll say it again though .... yes, an over/under grip puts you at risk for a bicep tear for your "under" hand. The reason is that when the weight gets really heavy, people unconsciously try to curl the weight up and bad things happen to the bicep as a result. The solution is to actually concentrate on flexing your tricep which will straighten your arm and inhibit your bicep. If you do that, you won't injure your bicep.

[Stenn]

I gave some thought to that after I wrote it. I thought that sounded a little ungodly. Turns out it's 2x, not 2.5...still be hell on the thumbs, but with my lifestyle, I'm more than a little used to different parts of my body feeling like hamburger.

You wouldn't happen to be a cow, would you?

I've only tried the hook grip a few times and found it to be very uncomfortable and assumed that I was doing it wrong. Maybe I wasn't. I'll probably give it another try now that I'm doing more Olympic lifting.

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the over/under put you at risk for a bicep tear until I mentioned it here and nearly got laughed off the forum.

You were a man ahead of your time, Karl. I probably would have been one of those laughing at you, but now I'm willing to take this more seriously.

I'll say it again though .... yes, an over/under grip puts you at risk for a bicep tear for your "under" hand. The reason is that when the weight gets really heavy, people unconsciously try to curl the weight up and bad things happen to the bicep as a result. The solution is to actually concentrate on flexing your tricep which will straighten your arm and inhibit your bicep. If you do that, you won't injure your bicep.

Yep, I think that's correct. Thanks for repeating it. The one caveat is that, in order to injure your bicep, you have to be strong enough to tear apart your own muscle and/or tendons by flexing against an immovable object. Most folks are not that strong.

[Marius_Ursus]

You wouldn't happen to be a cow, would you?

I've only tried the hook grip a few times and found it to be very uncomfortable and assumed that I was doing it wrong. Maybe I wasn't. I'll probably give it another try now that I'm doing more Olympic lifting.

No, I'm a bear.

And again, no, if the hook grip hurt, you were doing it right!