Best way to recomp? *REPS*

[darkshines]

Hey everyone,

Over the past 6 months or so I've went from about 265ish, 35-40% bf, to 190ish, around 20% bf.

I tried to keep my protein fairly high to minimize muscle loss, and I took EC on and off to help out. I didn't really have the time to weight train, but I walked away from it without losing very much muscle.

For March, I'm taking a break from EC and taking some Reset A.D. to see if I can help restore my adrenal glands. During this time, I won't be cutting, and as a former fat (read: obese) kid, I don't want to start bulking until I get to a lower bf%. So I figured for the next month I'll try my hand at recomping. I've also recently began weight training seriously for the first time ever, so I'd like to take advantage of any noob gains I can.

I figure I'll eat at a caloric surplus on my lifting days (M,W,F), and a deficit on my off days (T,T,S,S). I just can't figure out how much of a surplus and how much of a deficit I should eat at. Harris Benedict and Katch-McArdle both put me at a BMR of around 1800-1900 calories a day.

I can't decide between +500/-500, +400/-600, +600/-400, +300/-300. I've been mentally debating all the different combinations throughout the past few days, and I just can't decide which is best. I don't want to end up consuming too many calories and putting on additional fat, and I don't want to eat too little and not be able to build any muscle.

Reps for help, suggestions, etc.

EDIT - I forgot to mention I'll be doing either HIIT or LISS on my off days. And what should my macros look like? I'm thinking I'll try to get at least 1 g of protein per lb lean mass (around 150), and then maybe somewhere around 50-60 g of carbs and about the same for fat.

Thanks

[darkshines]

Bump

[SuffolkPunch]

This is a decent method:

http://leangains.blogspot.com/2010/0...-body-fat.html

Just run a surplus on workout days (with most food concentrated post workout) and a defecit on non workout days. You can augment the defecit with cardio on offdays

[Panabol]

I'd say cut fat to around 40 and increase carbs...

[SuffolkPunch]

Yeah, I can't wait for his book

I am still uncertain if IF is actually ideal for me - it's pretty good when gaining lean mass but when running a calorie defecit, my blood sugar can get cranky. Sometimes I reduce the fast to 14 hours or so.

The main thing is that I never feel hungry, at least not until I break the fast.

[SuffolkPunch]

So the idea is, you sleep for 9 hours, then you don't eat for 5 hours, and then you eat for the rest of the day? That does the trick?

Yes. Total fasting time = 16hrs

I have some whey pre-workout but otherwise I am in a fasted state - this is what Martin recommends. I then stuff myself in the hours after the workout.

Talking of which, squat day today - time to get going!

[darkshines]

The best way for you to recomp is just to eat at a straight deficit for a while. If you're at 20% BF you'll be able to put on quite a bit of muscle while cutting. Once you get leaner, and this becomes more difficult, you can screw around with a more complicated recomping setup (like Ultimate Diet 2.0 or something).

How big of a deficit are you thinking? Maybe 300 calories, and then let my cardio/weight increase the deficit closer to 500?

This is a decent method:

http://leangains.blogspot.com/2010/0...-body-fat.html

Just run a surplus on workout days (with most food concentrated post workout) and a defecit on non workout days. You can augment the defecit with cardio on offdays

I gave that a read, and that's pretty much what I was thinking minus the intake timing (I planned on just including an additional meal before and after my workout on my lifting days to increase my calories). I noticed he doesn't mention any specific numbers, which is what I'm really struggling on. Just how much of a deficit and surplus should I aim for?

I'd say cut fat to around 40 and increase carbs...

Do you think 40 grams is enough fat to maintain normal hormone production? I was under the impression around 50 is the bare minimum.

[SuffolkPunch]

I gave that a read, and that's pretty much what I was thinking minus the intake timing (I planned on just including an additional meal before and after my workout on my lifting days to increase my calories). I noticed he doesn't mention any specific numbers, which is what I'm really struggling on. Just how much of a deficit and surplus should I aim for?

It turns out that ingesting calories that are not likely to be used in protein synthesis (i.e. before a workout) is a waste of time. You need to have some protein in your system but not a big load of carbs - you are not going to be running a marathon.

Don't get too hung up on numbers. Basically, you need to know your maintenance and you cannot aim for an overall defecit that it too large or you will not gain muscle while losing fat.

Maybe try for +200 on WO days and -400 on non workout days.

Say for the sake of argument, the average is -250 calories a day, you will lose about 0.5lbs a week and should gain muscle too.

[darkshines]

It turns out that ingesting calories that are not likely to be used in protein synthesis (i.e. before a workout) is a waste of time. You need to have some protein in your system but not a big load of carbs - you are not going to be running a marathon.

Don't get too hung up on numbers. Basically, you need to know your maintenance and you cannot aim for an overall defecit that it too large or you will not gain muscle while losing fat.

Maybe try for +200 on WO days and -400 on non workout days.

Say for the sake of argument, the average is -250 calories a day, you will lose about 0.5lbs a week and should gain muscle too.

Alright, I was thinking about 60 minutes preworkout, I'll take my creatine capsules, and a shake with some oats and maybe eggwhites? I think about half a cup of oats, half a cup of egg whites, plus my protein powder and milk should give me close to 50 grams of carbs and 50 grams of protein. And I'll probably have the same thing right after my workout, with the inclusion of a banana for some quicker-digesting carbs. Does this sound decent for pre- and post-workout?

Assuming my BMR is 1800, I'll try to aim for around 2000 calories for my lifting days, and around 1200 calories for my off days. I'm not very good at converting from BMR to your ACTUAL maintenance requirements. Basically, my job is basically seated office work, 20 hours a week, and then I have seated class work about 10 hours a week. Other than that, I pretty much just sit at home. My only exercise consists of weight lifting and cardio @ the gym.

Right now my diet consists of skim milk, whole eggs, whole wheat bread, lean meat, and some FiberOne for my RDA of fiber. I'm going to go buy some oats, bananas, and maybe some egg whites today. Are these decent food choices, and anyone have any other recommendations? Perhaps I should start looking into some seafood? A lot of people on these forums mention tilapia; I can't say I've ever cooked tilapia, or many fish for that matter. I used to be big into prawns and tuna during my keto days, but that was about it.

Thanks again, and reps to everyone.

[darkshines]

Bump for above questions!

[SuffolkPunch]

It really doesn't matter that much. As long as you have a large helping of carbs and protein sometime in the hours after workout, it really isn't that precise, you don't need to stress out over speed of digestion or anything like that

Try your suggested calorie levels - you should expect to see a slow decline in bodyweight and you should see your lifts get slowly heavier too.

Your diet sounds OK, if a bit limited. High protein foods - fine but don't take a supplement instead of real fruit and veg...

Control calories, protein and timing - and give yourself some latitude with the rest of it

[nondualism]

How did I miss this thread?

Count me as a Berkhan-style IF convert. I don't follow his macros or whole food advice though.

I want to switch to recomp after my abs break - I've been running deficits everyday and not counting exercise at all - I've done very little cardio.

I THINK I've seen Martin recommend maintenance +25% on training days and maintenance -50% on off days. I could be wrong, but I think that was the last specific stuff I'd seen.

[MayaRefugee]

Assuming my BMR is 1800, I'll try to aim for around 2000 calories for my lifting days, and around 1200 calories for my off days. I'm not very good at converting from BMR to your ACTUAL maintenance requirements. Basically, my job is basically seated office work, 20 hours a week, and then I have seated class work about 10 hours a week. Other than that, I pretty much just sit at home. My only exercise consists of weight lifting and cardio @ the gym.

You still need an activity multiplier which is a number you multiply your BMR by based on the frequency and intensity of your excercise.

Look it up.

Peace.

[nondualism]

What are his macros and whole food advice? How have your results been while disregarding that?

Totally disregarding it - only following the FLfN thread recommendations for protein.

I've losing 2.25-2.5lbs/week. You can very easily run higher deficits on IF. The first day was hard, by the end of the week it was much easier. After a month, it's an autopilot thing - I don't even GET hungry during the fast. Oh, and I train fasted most days except 10g of BCAAs and then eat a big meal post-workout. My exact PWO is a cigarette, a can of full sugar soda, 30g BCAAs with 15% l-leucine...then I drink a 60g 'Team Skip' protein shake, then my meal a bit later.

I don't remember the exact macros and they change depending on goals. Generally on recomp, it's lower-carb on days off with higher fat. It's lower fat on training days with higher carb intake.

He generally advises to get most/all protein from food - chew, don't drink yr cals accordig to latest post. I have noticed that eating

[dragonaut]

dont waste your time recomping, if your 20% bodyfat, you got plenty of lard to cut, CUT till you get to 10% or lower and then clean bulk,

cutting should be relatively short and aggressive and bulking with a lower cal surplus and a longer period of time, so u maximize lean gains without getting too fat

[nondualism]

I agree, recomping is slow going from 20%. Go straight deficits to cut.

I don't know Martin's lean gain recommendations yet, but I'll probably start with +25% on training and straight maintenance on off days and see where it gets me...once I'm cut enough to even start gaining again, of course.

[darkshines]

dont waste your time recomping, if your 20% bodyfat, you got plenty of lard to cut, CUT till you get to 10% or lower and then clean bulk,

cutting should be relatively short and aggressive and bulking with a lower cal surplus and a longer period of time, so u maximize lean gains without getting too fat

I agree, recomping is slow going from 20%. Go straight deficits to cut.

I don't know Martin's lean gain recommendations yet, but I'll probably start with +25% on training and straight maintenance on off days and see where it gets me...once I'm cut enough to even start gaining again, of course.

I'm only doing this to try and give myself a chance to eat close to or above maintenance for a while to give my metabolism a chance to level out; it's been affected fairly strongly by the past 6 or 7 months of cutting. Plus, E/C really aids my cutting, and I'm taking a month off of that. So my only options were either recomp, or bulk.

If you still suggest I cut, then that's what I'll do. Hell, I prefer cutting to anything else, it's much easier. Think I'll still be able to put on a bit of mass thanks to noob gains, even though I'll be training at a fairly large deficit?

[NorthTexasBB]

You know what, I've heard a ton about Martin Berkhan's work, but I never actually read it. But this is brilliant. Not only does it have the science to back it, but he seems to be talented in the art of setting up things that complement people's weaknesses, rather than making people fight with themselves all the time.

Things like this:


Right on the money. Why fight with yourself if it's unnecessary? set the diet up around your preferences.

I'm the same way to be honest....I did IF before and loved it...I dont know why I went off it but after doing some reading I'm going to go back on it. I'm not a 5-6 meal person and dont want my life revolved around meal times either. Today's my first day on 8/16 plan

[nondualism]

I'm the same way to be honest....I did IF before and loved it...I dont know why I went off it but after doing some reading I'm going to go back on it. I'm not a 5-6 meal person and dont want my life revolved around meal times either. Today's my first day on 8/16 plan

IF is awesome, IMHO.

This is my first successful cut EVAR. The three rules from FLfN and 16/8 IF have made it a literal breeze!

[darkshines]

I'm only doing this to try and give myself a chance to eat close to or above maintenance for a while to give my metabolism a chance to level out; it's been affected fairly strongly by the past 6 or 7 months of cutting. Plus, E/C really aids my cutting, and I'm taking a month off of that. So my only options were either recomp, or bulk.

If you still suggest I cut, then that's what I'll do. Hell, I prefer cutting to anything else, it's much easier. Think I'll still be able to put on a bit of mass thanks to noob gains, even though I'll be training at a fairly large deficit?

Bump for this post,

and what is FLfN? Thanks

[nondualism]

Bump for this post,

and what is FLfN? Thanks

'Fat Loss for Noobs' - it's the sticky at or near the very top of the page...the ginormous thread, all the valuable info from which is really in the first three or so pages - 90% of it is in the very first post.

[darkshines]

'Fat Loss for Noobs' - it's the sticky at or near the very top of the page...the ginormous thread, all the valuable info from which is really in the first three or so pages - 90% of it is in the very first post.

Oh, yeah I've read that one a few times. I thought it was something else by Berkhan.

[nondualism]

Oh, yeah I've read that one a few times. I thought it was something else by Berkhan.

Berkhan's keeps the deets a little close to his chest - he's been writing a book for, what? Three years? LOL.

He does personal training/consulting. You can email him from a link at the leangains.com site.

[darkshines]

Berkhan's keeps the deets a little close to his chest - he's been writing a book for, what? Three years? LOL.

He does personal training/consulting. You can email him from a link at the leangains.com site.

Seems fair.

I think I'm just going to try my hand at cutting for the next month, E/C-free. I tend to cut pretty aggressively, so I'll probably aim for anywhere between 1200-1400 calories daily. As long as I get at least 160 grams of protein and 30 grams of fiber, I'm not too concerned about much else. I'll try to keep my levels of fat around 40 or 50 though, just to maintain normal hormone production. Carbs will understandably be low in order to stay within that caloric window.

[nondualism]

Seems fair.

I think I'm just going to try my hand at cutting for the next month, E/C-free. I tend to cut pretty aggressively, so I'll probably aim for anywhere between 1200-1400 calories daily. As long as I get at least 160 grams of protein and 30 grams of fiber, I'm not too concerned about much else. I'll try to keep my levels of fat around 40 or 50 though, just to maintain normal hormone production. Carbs will understandably be low in order to stay within that caloric window.

You can eat bigger, dirtier meals and still stay under that cal count with IF quite easily...IMHO.

[darkshines]

You can eat bigger, dirtier meals and still stay under that cal count with IF quite easily...IMHO.

I'm pretty happy with my current routine (eggs+toast, shake, sandwich, cereal), but I'm sure I'll get bored of that in about 2 weeks, after which I'll give IF a shot. I don't want to tackle IF until I research it a bit more though.

Does Berkhan make any mention of using EC or stimulants during IF? I can only imagine its effects would feel much stronger when all the doses are taken on an empty stomach.

[nondualism]

I'm pretty happy with my current routine (eggs+toast, shake, sandwich, cereal), but I'm sure I'll get bored of that in about 2 weeks, after which I'll give IF a shot. I don't want to tackle IF until I research it a bit more though.

Does Berkhan make any mention of using EC or stimulants during IF? I can only imagine its effects would feel much stronger when all the doses are taken on an empty stomach.

Yeah, the fasted state increases sensitivity to catecholamines and stimulants. You get used to it.

The first day sucks. Eat BIG before your first fast, and eat some slow-releasing protein before you crash for the night. Be prepared for big crankiness. After three days, it's easier, after three weeks, it's autopilot.

[Teflon_Don]

Yeah, the fasted state increases sensitivity to catecholamines and stimulants. You get used to it.

The first day sucks. Eat BIG before your first fast, and eat some slow-releasing protein before you crash for the night. Be prepared for big crankiness. After three days, it's easier, after three weeks, it's autopilot.

IF so simple. Back when I bought into the "eat every 2-3hrs" bullshiz I used to schlep a cooler with my tupperware in it to class every day and it was such a pain in the ass.

[NorthTexasBB]

IF is awesome, IMHO.

This is my first successful cut EVAR. The three rules from FLfN and 16/8 IF have made it a literal breeze!

ya it is, Right now I have my window from 1pm-9pm since it will allow me to go out to dinner with the gf from time to time...as summer approaches I may cut the window even more but right now I think making this switch actually helped break through my plateau even if it was just water weight.

I like to incorporate shakes into my eating since its fast and simple.

Just had 620 calorie protein shake to start the day off - feels full man

[darkshines]

Yeah, the fasted state increases sensitivity to catecholamines and stimulants. You get used to it.

The first day sucks. Eat BIG before your first fast, and eat some slow-releasing protein before you crash for the night. Be prepared for big crankiness. After three days, it's easier, after three weeks, it's autopilot.

I've fasted for Ramadan several times, so I've gotten very tolerant of hunger cravings and being energy-depleted.

I'm going to do some research on this IF, then I'll put together a plan for myself. Do you mind if I PM you then and get your thoughts on it, make sure I read into everything right? All the info you've provided me so far has been very valuable.