Keto Bulking Science, +Post your workout routines...

[gijoe985]

Howdy All,

I am back once again with keto bulking questions. I feel that keto bulking (and more specifically training programs that pertain to a keto bulk) information is hard to come by. I would like it if anybody doing a keto bulk could post their basic program. Not like every lift you do (though you can if you want) but just which muscle groups you lift, when, and about how many reps/sets of each you do.

Some science-
In CKD we have a pretty structured lifting program that aids in fat loss. We deplete glycogen store on Mon/Tue with a full body tension workout. We then get another full body tension workout in on Friday, immediately prior to our carb load, to create a supercompensation of muscle glyocogen synthesis. After a carb load the average person should have 150 mmol/kg of glycogen stored in their muscles. The Mon/Tue tension workout is supposed to lower us to approximately 70 mmol/kg. This is assuming we use up 1.3 mmol/kg per rep, and we do about 61 reps per muscle group (or about 5-6 sets of 10-12 reps). On Friday we try to lower out glycogen levels to between 25-40 mmol/kg and kickoff our carb up immediately after.

That form of workout program works great for cutting. It is science based and backed, but how does this all apply to bulking? In the Anabolic Diet, Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale gives us tons of information about bulking and carb loading. It resembles the CKD in many ways. But one thing that never really gets brought up is, "when/how/what should we be working out?" This is something that I have been pondering for a long while. Do I go back to my old 3 day split? But if I do that, I won't even get a full body workout until the end of the week... I won't get the same kickstart into ketosis like I did with my Mon/Tue depletion workouts. AND I won't be getting the supercompensation effect from my full body Friday workout. So will the ketogenic diet still be effective? According to Dr. Di Pasquale, we can expect to gain around 2lbs per week and stay under 10%BF. That's pretty darned good.

Though when I start doing that math for everything, I begin to become skeptical. Again, if we want to do any type of training we want, how will that training cooperate with my glycogen depleted state? Muscle exhaustion is supposed to take place below 25 mmol/kg. Now if I wanted to do a high intensity, hypertrophy inducing, time proven program, like German Volume Training, or Optimized Volume Training, would my body keep up? German Volume Training involves 10 sets of 10 reps for multiple exercises. Now according to my previous comments, we only start out with 150 mmol/kg at the beginning of the week, and only need 61 reps to hit 70 mmol/kg (40-70 mmol/kg is where optimal fat burning takes place). With a rate of 1.3 mmol/kg per set, would be dropping from 150 to 20 mmol/kg after out 10x10. That is in the exhaustion zone... So is it impossible? Well it wasn't for Hugo Rivera. He trained 2-3 times a day for an 8 week period and saw very impressive results. And this was with doing 10-12 sets of up to 15 reps per muscle group... What does this mean??? I honestly don't know...

Other things to consider

-Training with sets of 5 reps or less, for under 20 seconds per set, should utilize ATP moreso than glycogen for a fuel source. So by doing set of five, we could get more sets in without hitting super lower glycogen levels... Sets of 5 or less reps (@85% of 1RM) also increases testosterone production, which is our biggest ally in muscle growth.

-Pre/Post workout carbs could be used to prevent excessive glycogen loss. This would then no longer be a Anabolic Diet, but more of a timed carbs, or TKD, diet, but with a carb load. I need to research more, but I'd be interested in finding out how much glycogen would be replaced per gram of high GI carb consumed immediately post workout. Or pre workout. I do know that in the 6 hours post the depletion workout glycogen is synthesized at a rate of 12 mmol/kg/hour.

-Do we lift on carb up days? Anabolic Diet and typical CKD says no. Again, this is something that Hugo Rivera did and seemed to have great success. He planned his heavy days around the carb up period...

My current idea(s)

Right now I am thinking about something like this-

Mon/Tue are heavy lift days, 10x10 or 5x5, or a combo of both. I think the OVT might work well since it is doing supersets of quick 5x5 power lifts with slower (i.e. longer than 30 seconds, so it will burn glycogen) focused lifts. I am even considering the idea of split training on these days: Chest and Back Monday Morning, Arms Monday Afternoon; Legs Tuesday Morning, Abs and Delts Tuesday Night. This will get us the big gains we want, but also deplete (but not over-deplete) our glycogen levels by Tuesday night.

Now here is where the options come in. I think we could either do one of two things-

Wed/Thurs= light cardio. Friday depletion workout, similar to CKD.

OR

Wed/Thur/Friday Morning Light tension workouts. (Wed=Chest/arms, Thurs=Legs, Fri Morn.=Back+Shoulders) And then Friday afternoon comes the full body tension workout. I would also advise pre and/or post workout carbs in the three light workouts so that glycogen stores don't go below 40 until Friday afternoon.

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Whew... that was a lot of writing... Anyway, just have this stuff on my mind and I wanted to share my thoughts. Hopefully in the next few months I can try things outs and post results.

I a interested in seeing what everyone else is doing. And maybe you could even constructively critique your own routines.
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Unless otherwise linked to above, my information was found at-
Training on the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet: Effects of Cyclical Ketogenic Diets on Exercise Performance
&
Carbing Up on the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

[gijoe985]

Oh, and I'll be the first to post and comment that the guy who started this thread has no idea what he is talking about and claims no knowledge... Feel free to correct anything said above. I only posted because I am learning and want to learn more!

[gijoe985]

After doing some reading this morning, Dr. Di Pasquale does talk a little bit about training in his book Anabolic Solution for the Power Lifter, but not for the bodybuilder. Though he discusses training, he only talks about what types of lifts, and some possible programs. I do think that from all of his work, he alludes to just lifting on a 3, or 5, or whatever day split, just as if you were on a normal program. He does not account for glycogen depletion in workouts.

What I need to read up on now is the idea of training each group twice a week. I've read about it before. (Not so in general, but some specific studies about it.) I believe what I read was that your body will get all/most of your healing done in a 48 hour period. I'm sure that's what I read, but tell that to my legs 3-4 days after squatting hard??? Sometimes I feel that I need more. But maybe I should/could just lift in a sore state. Maybe not so hard, but a higher rep workout on those days.


WHEN DOES MASS BUILDING OCCUR ON KETO?

It seems to me that some people say that you should lift heavy on Mon/Tue right after you've carb loaded. While others, including Lyle MacDonald, refer to Mon/Tue as muscle maintaining days and that Friday is the mass gaining day. Looking into these would really switch around my theories mentioned in the OP.

Assuming Mon.Tue are good days for the mass training, my plan above would be good because on Mon/Tue you are doing lower rep set, which will use ATP instead of glycogen for part of the workout and it will increase testosterone production (which promotes muscle building.) For the latter workouts, if doing higher reps, it will increase growth hormone, which promotes fat burning.


I still feel lost in all this, but I keep writing my thoughts, hoping that I either help people out, or get proven wrong (which I'd count as a blessing since I a just trying to figure everything out.)

[gijoe985]

FYI, I'd still really appreciate other keto bulkers to post their workout routines...

Atavis? jaketyler123? PGW? redheadlaw7? chriskav?

[gijoe985]

Well, I need to gt a copy of Lyle's Ketogenic Diet book... I keep just finding excerpts here and there. Anyway, I am going to add to my keto bulk plan.

I am going to call it the TAD. Targeted Anabolic Diet. Which I am sure has been done with its own name, but I like giving it my own name...

The main thing that I'd like to add to this thread is some info I just found on pre workout carbs and replenishing glycogen stores, just enough to keep you in the fat burning 40-70mmol/kg state.

For my Mon/Tue workout, I have decided to go with 8x10 reps per musle group, using only one lift for each group. So chest might be bench. This was inspired by the German Volume Training, as well as Hugo Rivera's lifting protocols for the Anabolic Diet. 8X10 reps, is 80 reps, at 1.3mmol/kg per rep, will be 104mmol/kg burned. Subtract that from 150-160 and you get left with about 45-55. Which still falls in the 40-70 range. Now, depending on some expermenting, I might up it to 10x10 sets, but we'll see with time.

As for the Wed-Fri workouts, I plan on doing a three day split, hit the whole body in three days, about 150 total reps each day. My new info, found [url="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/46389-targeted-ketogenic-diet.html"]here[/ul], got me the needed data to plan to stay int hat 40-70 range. With 150 reps at 1.3mmol/kg per rep, I would potentially deplete myself of 195mmol/kg... More than I started with. But,

To convert mmol of glycogen to
grams of carbohydrate, we simply divide mmol by 5.56.
30 mmol/kg divided by 5.56 = ~5 grams of carbohydrates to replace 30 mmol of glycogen.

So for my 150 reps, divided by 5.56, I'd need about 35g of carbs to replace my glycogen I'd be burning up... So, taking a high GI carb spread out between pre and intra workout would be beneficial. Or a lower GI carb about 30 minutes before.

Friday afternoon/evening would be the depletion workout as described ina regular CKD diet, in order to created the atmosphere needed for supercompensation of glycogen...

[lnvictus]

sorry i couldn't contribute. but subbing for any response to op.

[Sami76]

You are one dedicated ketoer. Wish I had answers, but I'm new to this as well. I kept reading different takes on the workouts during CKD, so for now I'm just doing what feels right.

[gijoe985]

You are one dedicated ketoer. Wish I had answers, but I'm new to this as well. I kept reading different takes on the workouts during CKD, so for now I'm just doing what feels right.

As for the workouts on CKD, you can "do what feels right" in many aspects. When I first started, I just did my regular routine. Mon/Wed/Fri 3 day split. But if you want to get the maximum fat burn, follow three simple rules-

1) Cardio at beginning of week to help get ketones moving (Sunday, if you carb load ends Sat)
2)Try to hit every body part, even if only lightly, by Tuesday to deplete glycogen stores.
3)Try to get a full body workout on Friday, eve if only one set per muscle group, to prep your muscles for the carb load. (On that note, start taking in carbs immediately once your Friday workout is done... Don't wait)

Just some tips...