The New Christian Thread

[justme7]

It is an assumption that i am making here. The bible says that we are all sinners, that we can judge a person by their fruits.

So i default to saying that a person is not a Christian up until i get to know them better and see the fruits of God being revealed through their life. Playing an angel on a TV show is not a fruit of the lord. So they may be christian, i am not sure.

But hearing how they handle god's word in a form of a show from Christians who study this kind of thing makes me either think they are not christian, or Christians who need to repent by handling God's word correctly.

Of course this is all from second hand knowledge, which i hate debating on. I rather just see the show myself before making a final judgement call.

Just remember. The bible itself warns us of those who will claim to be christian but are not. Even in the last days some will preform great miracles that will even fool the elect.

idk that it's ever our place to judge whether someone is a Christian or not (or that we can. only God can rightly divide hearts). that said, i'm sure you see the problem with

1. assuming off the bat homeslice isn't a Christian
2. not looking into whether or not he is
3. condemning the tv show without even watching it as having ulterior motives because the guy isn't Christian (see #1 & 2)
4. then stating you're gonna watch the show to make a FINAL judgment call (implying you already have some judgment about the show without even being exposed to it yourself... which is problematic for viewing it with as unbiased a mind as one can this side of Heaven).
5. going by what others in the church have to say (erasing cynical comment here )

judging by what you've posted, it seems they want more direct correlation between homosexuality and sodom's destruction. on that point, they'd be in exegetical error, not burnett/his wife/the show.

Angels have no gender, but do have the appearance of male. Of every case that i read about angels visiting others, they have male features. So i would assume that the group of men in Sodom mistook them as regular Joes visiting Lot. Because the men of Lot did not know that they were angels.

idk how one has more-than-average masculine features in a time where people basically wore glorified dresses and had long hair, unless an author/Author was enumerating on a certain reproductive piece of anatomy that i've missed in the Bible's description of angels. (not trying to be flippant. just brief).






i know this is the interwebz, so you can't hear that i'm truly not trying to be pedantic, that all of my opinions are just that... opinion, and that they're meant with love, brah-in-Christ. and i hope you see why i'm pushing on the above so hard. my OT prof did that with me (and everyone else who came through his doors), and it changed my life (in a good way). we have got to stop making assumptions and start critically examining why we believe what we believe and not be so quick to jump on certain bandwagons championed in church history/in the contemporary Bible belt. if they hold after analysis, great. if not, dump out the dirty bathwater. the whole sodom's destruction=homosexuality thing is bathwater. and it's muddied Christianity to such an extent that it's forced away an entire group of people (LGBTQI2-s community and their advocates across multiple generations) from knowing the love of God b/c of how Christians have treated them, partly as a direct result of misinterpretation of Scripture.

but even if that interpretation is correct (which i humbly submit it isn't), then at what cost do we force it down other people's throats/across their airwaves?

[ppself]

idk that it's ever our place to judge whether someone is a Christian or not (or that we can. only God can rightly divide hearts). that said, i'm sure you see the problem with

1. assuming off the bat homeslice isn't a Christian
2. not looking into whether or not he is
3. condemning the tv show without even watching it as having ulterior motives because the guy isn't Christian (see #1 & 2)
4. then stating you're gonna watch the show to make a FINAL judgment call (implying you already have some judgment about the show without even being exposed to it yourself... which is problematic for viewing it with as unbiased a mind as one can this side of Heaven).
5. going by what others in the church have to say (erasing cynical comment here )

judging by what you've posted, it seems they want more direct correlation between homosexuality and sodom's destruction. on that point, they'd be in exegetical error, not burnett/his wife/the show.

I am just making an observation to what i have heard and seen so far.

I won't say anything further until i watch the show.

I am just saying that rich people and christianity do not mix easily. Even Jesus says this himself.

idk how one has more-than-average masculine features in a time where people basically wore glorified dresses and had long hair, unless an author/Author was enumerating on a certain reproductive piece of anatomy that i've missed in the Bible's description of angels. (not trying to be flippant. just brief).

Well Lot himself talked to the Angels as if they were male. And other angels like Gabriel and Michale were regarded to as male, even though angels are not male or female. It's one of the topics where we don't have enough information. But we do know that the angels visiting Lot were mistaken for as males.

i know this is the interwebz, so you can't hear that i'm truly not trying to be pedantic, that all of my opinions are just that... opinion, and that they're meant with love, brah-in-Christ. and i hope you see why i'm pushing on the above so hard. my OT prof did that with me (and everyone else who came through his doors), and it changed my life (in a good way). we have got to stop making assumptions and start critically examining why we believe what we believe and not be so quick to jump on certain bandwagons championed in church history/in the contemporary Bible belt. if they hold after analysis, great. if not, dump out the dirty bathwater. the whole sodom's destruction=homosexuality thing is bathwater. and it's muddied Christianity to such an extent that it's forced away an entire group of people (LGBTQI2-s community and their advocates across multiple generations) from knowing the love of God b/c of how Christians have treated them, partly as a direct result of misinterpretation of Scripture.

but even if that interpretation is correct (which i humbly submit it isn't), then at what cost do we force it down other people's throats/across their airwaves?

A lot of people would say that we are cramming the gospel down their throats by just speaking about it. and yet God commands us to spread the gospel to all people.

There is a fine line of course, and a common courtesy that is needed.

Either way. We must look to scripture in its context to determine the interpretation. The context with Lot and the men of Sodom is clear about sexual immortality. Whether or not you like it, is irrelevant. Whether or not it offends those who love that lifestyle, is irrelevant. God's word is absolute and does not change.

Only advice i can give on this is.

Love God will all your might and love your neighbor as you would yourself. Then determine how you preach the gospel to others.

[Fiyero]

Care to explain how the men of Sodom were not homosexuals when there were asking to have sexual relations with the men?

Because raping another man does not make one homosexual. Almost every perpetrator of rape against a male victim identifies as heterosexual. They are not doing it because they think the victim is attractive and sexy, they are doing it to humiliate and control them. This is backed by tons of research and has been common throughout all of history.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/sexualabuse...ape_myths.html

Sexual assault, no matter the gender of the perpetrator or victim, is a form of violence where sex is used to demean and humiliate another person. According to the 2010 NISVS report, 1 in 71 men in the U.S. are victims of rape or attempted rape in their lifetime; however, sexual violence of males is gravely underreported. Typically, the perpetrator is a heterosexual male, exerting his power and control over another man.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...ret-shame.html

Last year nearly 50,000 male veterans screened positive for “military sexual trauma” at the Department of Veterans Affairs.

While many might assume the perpetrators of such assaults are closeted gay soldiers, military experts and outside researchers say assailants usually are heterosexual. Like in prisons and other predominantly male environments, male-on-male assault in the military, experts say, is motivated not by homosexuality, but power, intimidation, and domination. Assault victims, both male and female, are typically young and low-ranking; they are targeted for their vulnerability. Often, in male-on-male cases, assailants go after those they assume are gay, even if they are not. “One of the reasons people commit sexual assault is to put people in their place, to drive them out,” says Mic Hunter, author of Honor Betrayed: Sexual Abuse in America’s Military. “Sexual assault isn’t about sex, it’s about violence.”

What story? Can you be a little more exact on which story and where in Judges 19 you referring to.

It's very similar to the story of Sodom. Men surround an old man's house in the city and demanded another man in the house be brought outside to be raped, because he was a visitor. The old man offered his virgin daughter and concubine instead, and the men raped the concubine all night.

[JValjean24601]

Glad to discover this thread over here. God bless you all!

[Fiyero]

Angels have no gender, but do have the appearance of male. Of every case that i read about angels visiting others, they have male features. So i would assume that the group of men in Sodom mistook them as regular Joes visiting Lot. Because the men of Lot did not know that they were angels.

Angels do appear in the Bible as female at least once. It's not surprising they are usually male though. The authors were patriarchal and women were inferior. They aren't going to describe people of power and position as female. Same reason G-d is always anthropomorphized as male. G-d has no gender.

[rdferguson]

If I recall correctly, it's explained more than once in the bible that the sin of Sodom was inhospitality. I remember a CARM article that laughed at this idea and reverted straight back to the sin being homosexuality and buttsecks. While there are many useful CARM articles, I don't feel that this was one of them. The reason given in the article for inhospitality not being the sin of Sodom is that inhospitality has never been a sin. The author evidently misunderstood the meaning of hospitality, and thus also misunderstood inhospitality. Hospitality is not primarily about elogance and fine dining (although taking high quality care of people is an act of hospitality), hospitality is the love of strangers. The Sodomites were brutal and cruel to strangers, as demonstrated by their insistance on raping the angels. Love your maker and love your neighbour, extending to strangers and even enemies. The Sodomites were remarkably inhospitable, and that alone was plenty to warrant the judgement brought upon them.

In other news, has anyone here read The Prodigal God?

[BobbyOrr1965]

I am not a prophet. I am not built for that. But yes I am a messanger. A teacher. Learn from me.

[lasher]

In other news, has anyone here read The Prodigal God?

I have 3 books ahead of it on my reading list. Have you read it? How was it?

[ppself]

Because raping another man does not make one homosexual. Almost every perpetrator of rape against a male victim identifies as heterosexual. They are not doing it because they think the victim is attractive and sexy, they are doing it to humiliate and control them. This is backed by tons of research and has been common throughout all of history.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/sexualabuse...ape_myths.html

Sexual assault, no matter the gender of the perpetrator or victim, is a form of violence where sex is used to demean and humiliate another person. According to the 2010 NISVS report, 1 in 71 men in the U.S. are victims of rape or attempted rape in their lifetime; however, sexual violence of males is gravely underreported. Typically, the perpetrator is a heterosexual male, exerting his power and control over another man.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...ret-shame.html

Last year nearly 50,000 male veterans screened positive for “military sexual trauma” at the Department of Veterans Affairs.

While many might assume the perpetrators of such assaults are closeted gay soldiers, military experts and outside researchers say assailants usually are heterosexual. Like in prisons and other predominantly male environments, male-on-male assault in the military, experts say, is motivated not by homosexuality, but power, intimidation, and domination. Assault victims, both male and female, are typically young and low-ranking; they are targeted for their vulnerability. Often, in male-on-male cases, assailants go after those they assume are gay, even if they are not. “One of the reasons people commit sexual assault is to put people in their place, to drive them out,” says Mic Hunter, author of Honor Betrayed: Sexual Abuse in America’s Military. “Sexual assault isn’t about sex, it’s about violence.”

Oh, that's right.

If balls don't touch, it's not gay.

The word "homosexuality" itself describes an sexual act. If a man preforms a sexual act on another man, it is homosexual in nature. Whether or not if it is rape. Consent has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It will either be heterosexual rape, or homosexual rape.

Angels do appear in the Bible as female at least once. It's not surprising they are usually male though. The authors were patriarchal and women were inferior. They aren't going to describe people of power and position as female. Same reason G-d is always anthropomorphized as male. G-d has no gender.

Do you have any scripture that refers to angels as being regarded as female?

And of course God has no gender. He is spirit. And no man can or able to see God. Which i never understood how there are paintings of him.

If I recall correctly, it's explained more than once in the bible that the sin of Sodom was inhospitality. I remember a CARM article that laughed at this idea and reverted straight back to the sin being homosexuality and buttsecks. While there are many useful CARM articles, I don't feel that this was one of them. The reason given in the article for inhospitality not being the sin of Sodom is that inhospitality has never been a sin. The author evidently misunderstood the meaning of hospitality, and thus also misunderstood inhospitality. Hospitality is not primarily about elogance and fine dining (although taking high quality care of people is an act of hospitality), hospitality is the love of strangers. The Sodomites were brutal and cruel to strangers, as demonstrated by their insistance on raping the angels. Love your maker and love your neighbour, extending to strangers and even enemies. The Sodomites were remarkably inhospitable, and that alone was plenty to warrant the judgement brought upon them.

I have never seen a article on CARM that said that the sin of Sodom was inhospitably. So i don't know.

But you are right that inhospitably has never been regarded to as an abomination by God, while homosexuality has. So for God to destroy 2 cities over something was not considered an abomination makes no sense.

[lasher]

I have never seen a article on CARM that said that the sin of Sodom was inhospitably. So i don't know.

Yeah that didn't sound right to me either. Not CARM's style.

I don't mean that pejoratively.

[ppself]

If anybody is interested. Chris Rosebrough of Fighting for the Faith did a talk on the series first episode, examining the Theological Errors contained within it.





Off topic. Anybody ever watch Duck Dynasty? Now that is a good christian show, that is not intentionally a Christian show.

[Fiyero]

O

The word "homosexuality" itself describes an sexual act. If a man preforms a sexual act on another man, it is homosexual in nature. Whether or not if it is rape. Consent has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It will either be heterosexual rape, or homosexual rape.

Which doesn't mean the men are gay or homosexuals and has no bearing on homosexuality being a sin. The Story of Sodom is consistently used to condemn gay people because of a rape event almost guaranteed to have taken place by straight men.

Homosexuality does not only refer to a sexual act. It refers to a sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with behavior.

Do you have any scripture that refers to angels as being regarded as female?

Zechariah 5

But you are right that inhospitably has never been regarded to as an abomination by God, while homosexuality has. So for God to destroy 2 cities over something was not considered an abomination makes no sense.

Actually, hospitality under Jewish law (the Torah) is one of the 613 Mitzvahs. Breaking it is a violation of divine law. Abomination also does not exist in Hebrew. I so wish people would stop using that word.

[Fiyero]

Yeah that didn't sound right to me either. Not CARM's style.

I don't mean that pejoratively.

You do realize the Bible itself says that is the sin of Sodom right? I already quoted Ezekiel.

[lasher]

You do realize the Bible itself says that is the sin of Sodom right? I already quoted Ezekiel.

I meant that it didn't sound right to me that CARM would take that position.

[ppself]

Which doesn't mean the men are gay or homosexuals and has no bearing on homosexuality being a sin. The Story of Sodom is consistently used to condemn gay people because of a rape event almost guaranteed to have taken place by straight men.

The story of Sodom and Lot is not condemning just homosexuals, but of continuous sin without repentance. It just happens that homosexual behavior towards those sent from God was what caused their destruction by God.

Homosexuality does not only refer to a sexual act. It refers to a sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with behavior.

Wrong. Homosexuality is a sexual act by nature. It is a behavior that affects ones lifestyle, and can be changed. No matter how many studies the secular world will say other wise. Especially when we have conflicting cases of those who lived the homosexual lifestyle repenting from their sins and living a healthy perfect hetero marriage afterwards.

But of course. You will say that they are lying just so that your behavior can be shown to be correct no matter what contradicting evidence is presented.

The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. Jesus says to repent from your sin, and be forever changed. So homosexual, and adulterous lifestyles can be abandoned for a life of repentance in the name of Christ.

It is freedom that Christ preaches, a choice in what you want in your life. You preach slavery under the false name of sexual orientation. No choice in who you want to be, only submission to what your sinful nature decides for you.

Actually, hospitality under Jewish law (the Torah) is one of the 613 Mitzvahs. Breaking it is a violation of divine law. Abomination also does not exist in Hebrew. I so wish people would stop using that word.

I am not a Hebrew scholar, but using some google-fu i can see that "Abomination" does exist in the Hebrew as תֹּועֵבָה towʿebah, toʿebah.

http://scholarsgateway.com/parse/%D7...91%D6%B8%D7%94 The source.

Even if i am wrong. What word is actually being used when the word "abomination" is being used 113 times in the OT and NT?

Also i have to ask. Are you Jewish by chance?

[JValjean24601]

Just wanted to introduce some great Christian music to all of you who might not be acquinted with Josh Garrels yet.

[Harbinger]

You mean the story of Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah is literal and not metaphorical?

[ppself]

You mean the story of Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah is literal and not metaphorical?

It is an historical account.

[QisGQ]

Those feels when your brother doesn't believe in God and yet has tremendous success. And you are actively working on improving and building your relationship with the Lord yet lack any success. These feels I don't want.

[Purge]

Those feels when your brother doesn't believe in God and yet has tremendous success. And you are actively working on improving and building your relationship with the Lord yet lack any success. These feels I don't want.

I know that feel.

I sometimes come across the ******** pages of old classmates to whom it wouldn't occur to foster a relationship with God and who were *ssholes back then, and they seem to be prospering. Then I realized that we should hope and pray that they keep prospering and ask God to remove any jealousy we may have in our hearts.

[Harbinger]

Those feels when your brother doesn't believe in God and yet has tremendous success. And you are actively working on improving and building your relationship with the Lord yet lack any success. These feels I don't want.

Satan is good to his followers.....at first.

[Myriad88]

Those feels when your brother doesn't believe in God and yet has tremendous success. And you are actively working on improving and building your relationship with the Lord yet lack any success. These feels I don't want.

God has providentially ordered history timelessly, brother. A genie he is not.

Developing a holy character is first and foremost and this entails the mental fortitude and tenacity to persevere hardships and lack of material wealth or "obvious" successes.


I'd hardly call material gains a "true" blessing anyway. The greatest benefits of faith are hidden deep beneath the level of superficialities, literalisms, liturgy, ritual and possessions. This is one reason I hate the Catholic Church.



If I met a Christian like that who prayed for nothing but money and pandered it around at the first sign of success I'd turn him in the right direction towards wisdom and enlightenment.

[QisGQ]

I know that feel.

I sometimes come across the ******** pages of old classmates to whom it wouldn't occur to foster a relationship with God and who were *ssholes back then, and they seem to be prospering. Then I realized that we should hope and pray that they keep prospering and ask God to remove any jealousy we may have in our hearts.

Yea by no means am I wishing them wrong. It's just the irony of the situation.

Satan is good to his followers.....at first.

you always have wise words.......

God has providentially ordered history timelessly, brother. A genie he is not.

Developing a holy character is first and foremost and this entails the mental fortitude and tenacity to persevere hardships and lack of material wealth or "obvious" successes.


I'd hardly call material gains a "true" blessing anyway. The greatest benefits of faith are hidden deep beneath the level of superficialities, literalisms, liturgy, ritual and possessions. This is one reason I hate the Catholic Church.

If I met a Christian like that who prayed for nothing but money and pandered it around at the first sign of success I'd turn him in the right direction towards wisdom and enlightenment.

I'm not praying for money or anything superficial like that. How about steady employment? That doesn't seem like much to ask for. The Bible even promotes working and not being a sluggard.

I always hear you need to keep the faith and persevere. That be much easier if things actually worked out. After a while you just grew frustrated.

[Myriad88]

Yea by no means am I wishing them wrong. It's just the irony of the situation.



you always have wise words.......



I'm not praying for money or anything superficial like that. How about steady employment? That doesn't seem like much to ask for. The Bible even promotes working and not being a sluggard.

I always hear you need to keep the faith and persevere. That be much easier if things actually worked out. After a while you just grew frustrated.

The whole point is, perseverance is a test of faith. It is one of the fundamental aspects of a holy character.

Paul and the apostles suffered through shipwreck, starvation, poverty, rejection, vilification, imprisonment, exile, torture.Christ suffered a hideous death he did not deserve. None of our hardships remotely compare. Thats the central message bro, in hardships and suffering of others/ourselves we find God. Especially when we surmount them


Even if I lost every last cent tomorrow and walked the streets finding morsels of food, I would still have affirm dimensions of experience far deeper than anything material and the only one who has lost everything would be he who defined himself by his possessions.

[ppself]

Those feels when your brother doesn't believe in God and yet has tremendous success. And you are actively working on improving and building your relationship with the Lord yet lack any success. These feels I don't want.

If your Bro does not believe in God, then he has no success.

Only an illusion of what is already dead and will not live in the next life.

My wife always brings this up. She sees our friends who are not christian and see their life flourish financially. This is the wrong way to approach this. We should be concerned with their status with God, not their financial status.

God will give you what you need, not what you desire. What you desire may not be what is good for you at the time. The lord sometimes needs to humble a person before he can bless them in a way that could cause them to be prideful. Paul talks about being humbled constantly by God so that he has no reason what so ever to be prideful.


Realize that you are successful under the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross. You have your place in heaven, while your brother may not. That is what should worry you.

[Fiyero]

The story of Sodom and Lot is not condemning just homosexuals, but of continuous sin without repentance. It just happens that homosexual behavior towards those sent from God was what caused their destruction by God.

No, the Bible does not say that. God did not send destruction because of homosexuality. The entire city was not made up of gays. The Bible specifically tells you he destroyed that city because the citizens were overfed, haughty and refused to help the needy and poor. That is the Mitzvah of hospitality that is being violated. That entire story is about inhospitality, not homosexuality. Homosexuality is a modern corruption of that story.

Wrong. Homosexuality is a sexual act by nature. It is a behavior that affects ones lifestyle, and can be changed. No matter how many studies the secular world will say other wise. Especially when we have conflicting cases of those who lived the homosexual lifestyle repenting from their sins and living a healthy perfect hetero marriage afterwards.

Sorry you're wrong. I know this for a fact. Not a single scientific source agrees with you. Even Exodus International, an evangelical "ex-gay" organization says that not a single member has ever turned straight. Have you seen the type of therapy "ex-gays" do? It's criminal and disgusting. And completely ineffective.

Does this seriously look like legitimate medical treatment to you?



Sexual Orientation is defined as "the predisposition to be emotionally, romantically, and/or sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex, same-sex or both sexes."

Behavior does not define attractions. A homosexual who has never had sex is still a homosexual.

But of course. You will say that they are lying just so that your behavior can be shown to be correct no matter what contradicting evidence is presented.

No contradicting evidence exists. Most humans are some degree of bisexual. You completely underestimate the power of people to suppress certain urges to conform to their beliefs. Sexual Orientation does not change. It is hardwired in the brain. We have MRI and PET scans of the gay brain showing that it's physically structured differently. Homosexuality is also universal in every animal species on earth. Do not for one second tell me that being gay is a choice. No argument pisses me off more than that one.

The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin.

No it doesn't. Sexual Orientation was not even discovered until the 19th Century. There was no distinction between gay or straight in Biblical days. Not a single case of same-sex behavior exists in the Bible outside pagan worship rituals or rape. You are completely ignoring the original context, culture, and language.

Jesus says to repent from your sin, and be forever changed.

Jesus said not a single word about homosexuality.

So homosexual, and adulterous lifestyles can be abandoned for a life of repentance in the name of Christ.

One cannot change their sexual orientation. They can choose not to engage in certain behaviors, but their same-sex attractions will never go away.

It is freedom that Christ preaches, a choice in what you want in your life. You preach slavery under the false name of sexual orientation. No choice in who you want to be, only submission to what your sinful nature decides for you.

And you live a self-righteous, haughty life style while judging people you know nothing about. Matthew 7, read it. The amount of harm people like you have caused the gay community is astronomical. God will not overlook the demonization and lies spread by his followers that have hurt gay people so much.

You really should learn to be more open minded. You are capable of being wrong. Your views do not line up with evidence or reality.

I am not a Hebrew scholar, but using some google-fu i can see that "Abomination" does exist in the Hebrew as תֹּועֵבָה towʿebah, toʿebah.

To'ebah means ritually impure/taboo. It was a prohibition on certain cultural practices forbidden among the Israelites and Levite priests. Leviticus is directed at the ritual practices of the priesthood, and how they are not to engage in practices common among the Egyptians and Canaanites. One of those prohibitions was for a man to be submissive to another man in pagan rituals. Shrine prostitution was forbidden to the Israelites. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with modern day gay people.

Even if i am wrong. What word is actually being used when the word "abomination" is being used 113 times in the OT and NT?

Abomination is used 76 times in the KJV Bible. Almost every use is in the Old Testament and comes from the word "To'ebah". The KJV mistranslated that word. It does not refer to a moral evil. Planting 2 seeds in the same field or wearing linen and wool together by definition are "abominations".

Also i have to ask. Are you Jewish by chance?

Yes, and I'm Messianic. And here is another shocker for you. I'm also Gay/Bi. Would you like to have a discussion on the torture and hell I've been through begging and crying to God my entire life to make me straight? Do you want to hear about my suicide attempts due to being extremely alone and hated by society for something I can't change? Try showing some humility and accept the fact that you very well might be wrong. I sure as heck have a lot more knowledge about this subject than you do. And I'm not basing it on religious right wing propaganda bent on demonizing gay people.

[Harbinger]

Yes, and I'm Messianic. And here is another shocker for you. I'm also Gay/Bi. Would you like to have a discussion on the torture and hell I've been through begging and crying to God my entire life to make me straight? Do you want to hear about my suicide attempts due to being extremely alone and hated by society for something I can't change? Try showing some humility and accept the fact that you very well might be wrong. I sure as heck have a lot more knowledge about this subject than you do. And I'm not basing it on religious right wing propaganda bent on demonizing gay people.

It's truly horrible what religion does to people.

[Fiyero]

Those feels when your brother doesn't believe in God and yet has tremendous success. And you are actively working on improving and building your relationship with the Lord yet lack any success. These feels I don't want.

Know that feeling. I live as pure a life as I can and ask God for help, yet I'm basically a failure and people I know who don't really care about being virtuous seem to make out much better.

[justme7]

No, the Bible does not say that. God did not send destruction because of homosexuality. The entire city was not made up of gays. The Bible specifically tells you he destroyed that city because the citizens were overfed, haughty and refused to help the needy and poor. That is the Mitzvah of hospitality that is being violated. That entire story is about inhospitality, not homosexuality. Homosexuality is a modern corruption of that story.



Sorry you're wrong. I know this for a fact. Not a single scientific source agrees with you. Even Exodus International, an evangelical "ex-gay" organization says that not a single member has ever turned straight. Have you seen the type of therapy "ex-gays" do? It's criminal and disgusting. And completely ineffective.

Does this seriously look like legitimate medical treatment to you?

[video=youtube;jJXWFZz0Qjo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jJXWFZz0Qjo[/vieo]

Sexual Orientation is defined as "the predisposition to be emotionally, romantically, and/or sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex, same-sex or both sexes."

Behavior does not define attractions. A homosexual who has never had sex is still a homosexual.



No contradicting evidence exists. Most humans are some degree of bisexual. You completely underestimate the power of people to suppress certain urges to conform to their beliefs. Sexual Orientation does not change. It is hardwired in the brain. We have MRI and PET scans of the gay brain showing that it's physically structured differently. Homosexuality is also universal in every animal species on earth. Do not for one second tell me that being gay is a choice. No argument pisses me off more than that one.

No it doesn't. Sexual Orientation was not even discovered until the 19th Century. There was no distinction between gay or straight in Biblical days. Not a single case of same-sex behavior exists in the Bible outside pagan worship rituals or rape. You are completely ignoring the original context, culture, and language.

Jesus said not a single word about homosexuality.

One cannot change their sexual orientation. They can choose not to engage in certain behaviors, but their same-sex attractions will never go away.

And you live a self-righteous, haughty life style while judging people you know nothing about. Matthew 7, read it. The amount of harm people like you have caused the gay community is astronomical. God will not overlook the demonization and lies spread by his followers that have hurt gay people so much.

You really should learn to be more open minded. You are capable of being wrong. Your views do not line up with evidence or reality.



To'ebah means ritually impure/taboo. It was a prohibition on certain cultural practices forbidden among the Israelites and Levite priests. Leviticus is directed at the ritual practices of the priesthood, and how they are not to engage in practices common among the Egyptians and Canaanites. One of those prohibitions was for a man to be submissive to another man in pagan rituals. Shrine prostitution was forbidden to the Israelites. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with modern day gay people.

Abomination is used 76 times in the KJV Bible. Almost every use is in the Old Testament and comes from the word "To'ebah". The KJV mistranslated that word. It does not refer to a moral evil. Planting 2 seeds in the same field or wearing linen and wool together by definition are "abominations".

Yes, and I'm Messianic. And here is another shocker for you. I'm also Gay/Bi. Would you like to have a discussion on the torture and hell I've been through begging and crying to God my entire life to make me straight? Do you want to hear about my suicide attempts due to being extremely alone and hated by society for something I can't change? Try showing some humility and accept the fact that you very well might be wrong. I sure as heck have a lot more knowledge about this subject than you do. And I'm not basing it on religious right wing propaganda bent on demonizing gay people.

i have been trying to rep you since first seeing your first post with the Ezekiel passage. stupid r/c is killing me.

you're amazing, and i admire you. (that's something i've said to exactly 2 other people in my entire life, so i intend it as a meaningful compliment). i'm so very sorry for what the church has put you through. and i'm equally impressed that you managed to find the love of God underneath all the dross the church has attached to it. would rep irl.

[lasher]

i have been trying to rep you since first seeing your first post with the Ezekiel passage. stupid r/c is killing me.

you're amazing, and i admire you. (that's something i've said to exactly 2 other people in my entire life, so i intend it as a meaningful compliment). i'm so very sorry for what the church has put you through. and i'm equally impressed that you managed to find the love of God underneath all the dross the church has attached to it. would rep irl.

Yeah Fiyero's a smart dude I like him too. Although he is still on my **** list for something he posted a while back. He knows what I mean ...