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    Is Satan Really Such a Bad Guy?

    found this on a site and thought it was pretty interesting

    discuss
    According to Christianity, Satan is the epitome and embodiment of all evil things, described as "the father of all lies" in the Catholic Church's Catechism (paragraph 391). It is his works that tempt humans into doing bad deeds. If something evil occurs, we can be assured that Satan had something to do with it.

    The History of Satan

    According to Catholicism, Satan only exists because God allows him to (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 395). This raises some serious issues about how righteous God can be if he allows evil to exist, but I digress. Satan, as the story goes, began as the angel Lucifer, who outrightly rejected God and rebelled against him. God cast Lucifer and those who followed him into Hell, a place of eternal torture and despair, where God was not present.

    Like any good propoganda machine, Christian authorities have made sure to limit the disenimation of information on the enemy (Satan) to what they want the public to know. For example, we are never told why Satan rebelled against God. We're never given his side of the story. Were Satan's reasons for rejecting God and attempting to overthrow him legitimate? From where I'm standing, they could certainly be considered valid if the authorities see fit to hide them from the general public.

    For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the book that outlines Catholic beliefs in detail, has barely half a column in its index devoted to Satan and information on him, where as Jesus Christ has a full 6 pages! Sound like a propoganda machine to you, yet?

    Christian authorities have made some big mistakes with their anti-Satan propoganda machine, however. Since there is so little information available about Satan, there is no record of anything he's done or any way to connect events to him. Christians simply and lazily accredit evil occurences to Satan. A good example are the events of September 11. Within weeks, a doctored picture was floating around the internet showing Satan's face in the clouds of smoke and debris eminating from the two towers, thus unfairly making Satan out to be responsible for these tragedies.

    Satan vs. God

    The only evidence we have to conclude Satan's utter evil is God's word, and frankly, God's word isn't worth too much. He's shown a remarkable inconsistency in his actions and words, and he's hardly above lying or dishonest conduct. Straight after giving Moses the first set of Ten Commandments (which included "Thou shalt not kill"), he let Moses go ahead and order the Levites to go on a mass-murdering rampages, which they did, but only after he talked God out of killing all the people! According to 2 Thessolonians 2:11-12, God will send a strong illusion to people so that they will believe lies, so he can condemn everyone to Hell. After giving Moses the Ten Commandments, God orchestrated a litany of atrocities through isoltated commandments that are simply too great in number to list here. I suggest checking out the The Skeptic's Annotated Bible to see for yourself, specifically this section. These events are detailed in Exodus 32. In 2 Chronicles 18:22, God lies to prophets. Why should anyone take his word at face value if he has no problem with lying to us for no reason other than to have an excuse to condemn us to Hell?

    Who's more evil? God or Satan? How can we determine this? Well, it's a simple matter of looking at the actions of both God and Satan. Who's commited more evil acts? Who's done more harm to humanity? Who's been the most oppressive? Is Satan really as bad as the Christian Smear Campaign makes him out to be? Let's find out...
    --
    God
    ?God takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, thus commiting the first murder, and holds their descendants responsible and visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children. In today's moral standards, the sins of the father die with the father.
    ?God destroys all life on Earth in a great flood, except for a drunk (Noah) and his family, for failing to worship him.
    ?God's tenth plague upon the Israelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children.
    ?Before sending the plagues to Egypt, God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go, so he could have an excuse to visit horrible plagues upon them, like boils, killing cattle and murdering all firstborn sons. (Exodus 4:21)
    ?God orders the Levites to kill their "every man and his neighnor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Exodus 32:27)
    ?God sends a plague to the Israelites, apparently feeling that mass-butchery wasn't enough of a punishment. (Exodus 32:35)
    ?God kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (Genesis 38:8-10)
    ?God kills the entire populations of Soddom and Gammorah (again, including women, children and infants) for practicing certain sexual techniques.
    ?God gives all Philistines hemorrhoids in their pubic areas. (1 Samuel 5:9)
    ?God kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 Samuel 6:19)
    ?God kills 70,000 people because King David decided to have a census. (1 Chronicles 21:7-14)
    ?God approves of slavery, and instructs owners to beat their slaves. (Proverbs 29:19)
    ?And, finally, God makes sure that if you are guilty of even the smallest transgression, you shall suffer endlessly for all eternity, following a dramatic homecoming for Jesus, who will be extremely pissed off at everyone for putting him to death, even though it was just the Romans and even though he knew what was going to happen beforehand, and he could have easily avoided it by using his power as God to perform a miracle and prove who he was. (See the entire book of Revelation)
    --
    Satan

    ?Satan, like Prometheus, gave knowledge to humanity by giving Eve the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis. Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did. Satan gave humans true capacity for moral judgment, unlike God, who simply expected everyone to mindlessly obey his orders.
    ?There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of commiting genocide.
    ?There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses.
    ?Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will.

    It doesn't take a mathematician to add up and compare God and Satan's respective body counts. God has, after all, killed billions of people in a great flood. Satan never did anything like that. What was the only thing Satan did "wrong"? He rebelled against God, but wouldn't you? Look at what kind of a God he is! He needlessly murders people in nearly every book and passage of the Old Testament! He created an entire race of people for the sole purpose of catoring to his own ego, and then gets mad when we don't live up to our appointed role in life or question one of his decisions! He is a ruthless, dictatorial, narcissistic, sociopathic mass murderer. If I go to Hell for not worshipping him, so much the better. I'd rather spend eternity with Satan, someone who hasn't treated the human race like disposable garbage, someone who has given knowledge to humanity rather than trying to suppress it.

    It's time to stop this needless slandering of Satan's name. Satan has done nothing to deserve it. He hasn't killed anyone, publicly exonerated slavery, demanded our worship or threatened us with eternal damnation for not doing his bidding. It is God who is guilty of all these crimes. Satan's done nothing but rebel against a repugnantly unjust authority figure, and he gets eternal damnation and association and blame for all evil on Earth! Meanwhile, Martin Luther King, Jr. gets a holiday named after him, and Satan was far more courageous that King was. After all, Satan stood up to an all powerful narcissist who made it clear that he never would change his mind on any issue. King at least had a democracy to work with. The Christian Smear Campaign toward Satan is completely unwarranted. Maybe, before criticizing Satan, they should look at the God they worship. Is Satan really a bad guy? Certainly not in comparison to God. In fact, I'd much rather have Satan running things. He just can't be worse than God.
    http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/o...on/satan.shtml
    Last edited by Gankez365; 02-10-2010 at 05:10 AM.
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    j/k

    I read somewhere that Yahweh had killed about 2,000,000 people according to the bible and Satan had only killed like 50.
    "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" - Delos McKown

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    Originally Posted by mug View Post


    j/k

    I read somewhere that Yahweh had killed about 2,000,000 people according to the bible and Satan had only killed like 50.

    yeah, of course you read somewhere... now lets take into account mao, che, hitler, stalin, hussein, attila, etc...
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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    yeah, of course you read somewhere... now lets take into account mao, che, hitler, stalin, hussein, attila, etc...
    Yeah cuz mao, che, hitler, stalin, hussein, attila are all comparable to a supreme ruler of the universe that is the epitome of goodness.
    "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" - Delos McKown

    "Suppose there was an intelligence, vast and unknowable. Suppose it lit the big bang, suppose it wrote the laws of physics, and has been subtly moulding the universe for 14 billion years. Now keep a straight face and tell me that it cares where you stick your dick."
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    Agnostic Atheist Large_Emu's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    yeah, of course you read somewhere... now lets take into account mao, che, hitler, stalin, hussein, attila, etc...
    lol! what a fail post.
    "worship me or i will torture you for eternity" - God.

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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    yeah, of course you read somewhere... now lets take into account mao, che, hitler, stalin, hussein, attila, etc...
    I love how even you as a Christian are comparing Yahweh to people like Hitler and Stalin. Says a lot about your god if even you are having to compare him to mass murderers to make him come off as "good."
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    Originally Posted by LordDarwin View Post
    I love how even you as a Christian are comparing Yahweh to people like Hitler and Stalin. Says a lot about your god if even you are having to compare him to mass murderers to make him come off as "good."

    not comparing, just showing that what you atheists read on some boards is completely biased. death is a part of this world. For one civilization to rise, another must fall.

    Brb, hating the U.S. and the rest of the world for the wars and deaths that it has contributed to...
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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    yeah, of course you read somewhere... now lets take into account mao, che, hitler, stalin, hussein, attila, etc...
    do you even realize how fail this post is? facepalm.
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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    not comparing, just showing that what you atheists read on some boards is completely biased. death is a part of this world. For one civilization to rise, another must fall.
    So if deaths part of the world you wont mind if I slaughter your family and all their pets with a sword?

    I mean death is a part of this world. ...

    Oh, and it's not like Yahweh could magic things right is it..He's not a god or anything is he? No he needs to kill people, animals and even children at the end of a sword, doesn't he?
    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    Brb, hating the U.S. and the rest of the world for the wars and deaths that it has contributed to...
    You don't seem to be getting this:

    God != The actions of a country or individual.

    HE'S AN ALL POWERFUL OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT GOD!
    HE DOESN'T HAVE TO KILL! Think about it....!!!
    ---

    If Yahweh is so good, and the devil is so bad then how do you explain the contrasting death toll?
    Last edited by LordDarwin; 02-10-2010 at 06:46 AM.
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    Originally Posted by LordDarwin View Post
    So if deaths part of the world you wont mind if I slaughter your family and all their pets with a sword?

    I mean death is a part of this world. ...

    Oh, and it's not like Yahweh could magic things right is it..He's not a god or anything is he? No he needs to kill people, animals and even children at the end of a sword, doesn't he?
    as far as the family part, that does happen. if we were two civilizations at war,civilizations that are incompatable, than yeah, that is a risk. i would do my best to prevent it, but if it happens, than it happens.

    Lol at magicing things right. next you would complain that there would be no free will, and that we were forced to worship. If he magicked(?) things right, how would that be just?

    point of my post was, you guys will attribute every death to God, but convienently overlook the other side. Also, most to all the deaths that you attribute to God, could ultimately be attributed to Satan, if God and satan do exist. Most of those who died, did so because of direct disobeyment of God (which could be taken as a metaphor i.e. sin=death)




    Originally Posted by LordDarwin View Post
    You don't seem to be getting this:

    God != The actions of a country or individual.

    HE'S AN ALL POWERFUL OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT GOD!
    HE DOESN'T HAVE TO KILL! Think about it....!!!
    well, lets think about it. your right, he doesnt have to kill, only take away your free will.

    He chooses to give his creature free will

    Originally Posted by LordDarwin View Post
    If Yahweh is so good, and the devil is so bad then how do you explain the contrasting death toll?
    we have already talked about the contrast. its biased.
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    do you even realize how fail this post is? facepalm.
    explain yourself?
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    interesting point op...if he loves us so much and it hurts him to see us sin and be bad...then why does he kill us?
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    Originally Posted by King_Breazy321 View Post
    interesting point op...if he loves us so much and it hurts him to see us sin and be bad...then why does he kill us?
    he wants you to have free will. there are consequences for making some wrong choices with free will, as there are also rewards
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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    he wants you to have free will. there are consequences for making some wrong choices with free will, as there are also rewards
    so we make one mistake or dont believe in him...we die?

    sounds like a loving father...just saying
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    I'm not getting into a quote-off coz I'm feeling lazy.

    So I'll just address your freewill "argument"



    1.) Did the people who God killed have any freewill in the matter... No?
    Your argument is invalid





    2.) Also if freewill exists, explain the purpose of prayer?
    *Waits for scoundrel to fall into trap*
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    It's amazing how brainwashed theists can be.
    "worship me or i will torture you for eternity" - God.

    Religion is dying, rejoice!


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    Originally Posted by LordDarwin View Post
    I'm not getting into a quote-off coz I'm feeling lazy.

    So I'll just address your freewill "argument"


    1.) Did the people who God killed have any freewill in the matter... No?
    Your argument is invalid *
    Where the people that God had killed enemies with God? Did the people that died disobey God?


    Originally Posted by LordDarwin View Post
    2.) Also if freewill exists, explain the purpose of prayer?
    *Waits for scoundrel to fall into trap*
    Might as well take the bait... There are many reasons for prayer, personal relationship, strength, enlightenment etc...
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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    Where the people that God had killed enemies with God? Did the people that died disobey God?
    If they did disobey God, and got killed for it by God then they didn't have freewill to do what they wanted because God intervened; therefore there is no freewill.

    Ged'it?




    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    Might as well take the bait... There are many reasons for prayer, personal relationship, strength, enlightenment etc...
    I just made a thread on it since it's such a good topic, thanks for causing me to remember yet another great flaw in Christianity.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post448009641
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    Originally Posted by Gankez365 View Post
    found this on a site and thought it was pretty interesting

    discuss

    http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/o...on/satan.shtml
    This is "CHRISTIANDUMBS" fairytale of SATAN, THE DEVIL, THAT OLD SERPENT!

    According to Christendumb, Satan created himself! He was supposedly a perfect archangel and then CHANGED HIMSELF INTO A DEVIL. Is this Scripturally true? Who created Satan?

    The Bible states the opposite [ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD - the Devil, Evil, etc.],

    You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [FROM THE BEGINNING], and the father [THE BEGINNER] of it" (John 8:44).

    "Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent, creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn't possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).

    "By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13).

    "And the LORD said unto SATAN [not a heretofore archangel], Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, "From going TO AND FRO in the earth, and from walking UP AND DOWN in it" (Job. 1:7 and 2:2).

    It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who goes "TO AND FRO" and "UP AND DOWN" in the earth! God created Satan for this purpose.

    "And the LORD said [is this a high enough authority for everyone?], Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN [not a heretofore archangel] hath desired to have you, that he may SIFT you as wheat" (Luke 22:31).

    It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.

    "Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

    God created the "WASTER," not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY" Now then, WHO'S role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?

    "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).

    It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be "the WASTER to DESTROY" men's flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20). Satan started with Adam and Eve and he isn't finished YET!

    I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there none beside Me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL [even the creation of evil and even the creation of Satan] THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:5-7).

    Satan is evil, God created evil, God CREATED SATAN!

    "He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil" (I John 3:8). So was it AFTER a supposed "Lucifer archangel" metamorphosed into Satan that he sinned, or did Satan the Adversary sin "from the BEGINNING?

    What GOOD purpose does EVIL and the Devil serve?
    Last edited by AREMNANT; 02-10-2010 at 09:00 AM.
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    Exactly. This is one thing that really led me to start questioning my beliefs when I was a kid.
    I want to touch the butt.
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    bump...
    -Night Miscers Crew-
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    I have a somewhat OT question. Does it ever state anywhere in the Bible, Tanak (sic?), or Koran that god is benevolent? I know this is the assumption alot of followers of Christianity, Judism, and Islam make; but I don't remember having ever actually seen it in any of the books.

    EDIT: I forgot to say serious, post is seriuos.
    Last edited by neonhypoxia; 02-16-2010 at 08:13 PM.
    All of this has been posted before, and all of this will be posted again.
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    Satan is more of a god than "god" is!
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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    yeah, of course you read somewhere... now lets take into account mao, che, hitler, stalin, hussein, attila, etc...
    I can't believe you wrote that.
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    Originally Posted by Scoundrel View Post
    yeah, of course you read somewhere... now lets take into account mao, che, hitler, stalin, hussein, attila, etc...
    not only is this a horrible post, but ATILLA THE HUN? WTF? apparently atheists are now to blame for everything pagans do. rofl.
    I want to touch the butt.
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    Originally Posted by Blindead View Post
    not only is this a horrible post, but ATILLA THE HUN? WTF? apparently atheists are now to blame for everything pagans do. rofl.
    Was atilla a christian. no.

    were talking in the scheme of God and satan. If satan exists, than the responsibility of those deaths would fall on him. that is the point, that you guys will add up every single death on God(by perception) and overlook some of the most brutal murderers in history.

    and you think your going to get any sympathy on your last statement?
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    lets end this thread, you guys are not going to persuade a christians mind on this. if God and satan exist, which we believe, then every sin(death) would be attributed to Satan.
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    Satan was already screwed to begin with, he just wants to take as many as he can with him.
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    Since apparently everything evil =/= not Christian, even when done by Christians, I don't really see the point of trying to argue with you. lulz.
    I want to touch the butt.
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    I'm sure a "Christain" is capable of doing evil as much as any other person.
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