overtraining. looking for alternatives

[chairmanMEOW]

sorry i couldnt come up with a more creative name but its pretty much the heart of the question.

175 lbs, 5' 8, 14.1% body fat. looking to cut first. i want to work out as much as possible cause it bugs me when i don't do something for a day. so i'd like to be active 6 days a week with 1 day of rest.

Monday, Wednesday, Friday: i do the typical three day split. (chest/tri, back/bi, shoulders/legs) about 6-8 exercises of 3 sets each. finish with 20 minutes cardio.

Tuesday, Thursday Saturday: full-body workout defined as cross-fit style stuff. long circuits with no rest. Followed by HIIT, 5 sets of 45 seconds sprinting and 1:30 jogging.

of course something (the many stickies and threads here) tells me that i'm definitely overtraining. given my goals, which one should i give up? i dont want to neglect the bench/squat/deadlift trifecta, but i've also been told that total body work outs do more for your goal.

and with that in mind, what can i do as an alternative when i drop one or the other?

[daman622]

Bro I had the same problem. I cant stay at home for a long period of time so i used to live at the gym cause it was just something to do. But i started to work one muscle group a day. Like monday: Chest, Tues: bi's, wed: tri's, thursday: shoulders and so on. The longer you work out one muscle maybe like an hour to and hour and a half just lifting for that one muscle. then do abs and your cardio. but 6 days a week one muscle a day and you'll shred up trust me **** works

[Miketoc]

sorry i couldnt come up with a more creative name but its pretty much the heart of the question.

175 lbs, 5' 8, 14.1% body fat. looking to cut first. i want to work out as much as possible cause it bugs me when i don't do something for a day. so i'd like to be active 6 days a week with 1 day of rest.

Monday, Wednesday, Friday: i do the typical three day split. (chest/tri, back/bi, shoulders/legs) about 6-8 exercises of 3 sets each. finish with 20 minutes cardio.

Tuesday, Thursday Saturday: full-body workout defined as cross-fit style stuff. long circuits with no rest. Followed by HIIT, 5 sets of 45 seconds sprinting and 1:30 jogging.

of course something (the many stickies and threads here) tells me that i'm definitely overtraining. given my goals, which one should i give up? i dont want to neglect the bench/squat/deadlift trifecta, but i've also been told that total body work outs do more for your goal.

and with that in mind, what can i do as an alternative when i drop one or the other?

You're not "definitely overtraining", wtf is with the overtraining threads lately? The only issue I could see is trying to do this on a cut, but as long as you got enough sleep you'd probably be fine. How heavy are you lifting?

[chairmanMEOW]

yeah i started doing one muscle group a day but my weight spiked from 170 to 175. even though my bmi went down, i'm looking primarily to lose all that weight first. freaking 175 at my height is ridiculous. (cause i'm not super big looking). i think i'm just abnormally heavy.

ironically i started an overtraining thread cause of the stickies and general talk. everyone seems more ripped and lifts less than i'm planning. lol

anyway. i'd typically do 2 sets of about 10 reps. the final set i'd do a drop set, going until failure and dropping weight till i couldnt do more than 5 reps on that weight.

because of the three day split, would you recommend i tack on more exercises or is it good at just doing my amount?

and i sleep an average of 8 hours. thats enough right?

[daman622]

Yeah im 5'8 and i weigh about 178 at our height its hard to get that slender thing going on but i'm still trying haha good luck dude

[daman622]

8 hours is the ideal sleep time. and you should do 3 sets 0f 10-12 reps at a little lower weight if youre tryin to cut. more reps less weight will shred you. more weight less reps will mass you.

[CookAndrewB]

You're not "definitely overtraining", wtf is with the overtraining threads lately? The only issue I could see is trying to do this on a cut, but as long as you got enough sleep you'd probably be fine. How heavy are you lifting?

It isn't just "lately."

I agree, it is virtually impossible to say whether this is simply too much, or what. Overtraining, no. Being a moron, maybe

yeah i started doing one muscle group a day but my weight spiked from 170 to 175. even though my bmi went down, i'm looking primarily to lose all that weight first. freaking 175 at my height is ridiculous. (cause i'm not super big looking). i think i'm just abnormally heavy.

ironically i started an overtraining thread cause of the stickies and general talk. everyone seems more ripped and lifts less than i'm planning. lol

anyway. i'd typically do 2 sets of about 10 reps. the final set i'd do a drop set, going until failure and dropping weight till i couldnt do more than 5 reps on that weight.

because of the three day split, would you recommend i tack on more exercises or is it good at just doing my amount?

and i sleep an average of 8 hours. thats enough right?

First, BMI is absolute crap. It is in no way a useful indicator of health, unless you are an untrained couch potato, in which case I doubt you need a calculator to tell you that you are fat, lazy and more likely to die from poor health.

Don't worry about what everyone else "is." Worry about what the best possible you looks like. If you expect to be someone else, you will always be frustrated and unhappy. That advice is free, the rest I'll be charging you for.

Get yourself on a well established routine for beginners. With your particular goals I will suggest you pick up the book (the paper square that they made you carry around in school) Muscle Logic (Charles Staley's Escalating Density Training). Randomly doing things isn't going to help you. Imagine you are in the middle of a lake trying to get to shore so you don't drown. If you decide to flail about you MAY get to the shore, but it is going to be a lot harder than if you just put your kicks and strokes together in some reasonable order

8 hours is a good amount of sleep. Some people need more or less, but 8 won't hurt.

8 hours is the ideal sleep time. and you should do 3 sets 0f 10-12 reps at a little lower weight if youre tryin to cut. more reps less weight will shred you. more weight less reps will mass you.

I actually heard Jesus punched a kitten when he read this and I had to come see what would have pissed him off so badly.


...yup, I would punch a kitten right now if I could. Fortunately for the feline population, there are no cats in sight.

1. 8 hours is a suggested sleep time. Ideal is nowhere in that concept.
2. high rep low weight while cutting is, again, one idea. It does not represent the ultimate answer, nor even a "good" answer, IMO.
3. No lifting protocol will "shred you." Rabid wolverines shred you. Falling into a wood chipper would effectively shred you. Lifting weights will only make you A) bigger B) stronger. Losing fat is necessary to see enhanced definition, and frankly exercise is a pretty poor method of losing fat.
4. More weight and fewer reps will not "mass" anything. Not without the calories to support muscle gain.

*shakes head* please stop offering advice.

[Papa_GC]

It isn't just "lately."

I agree, it is virtually impossible to say whether this is simply too much, or what. Overtraining, no. Being a moron, maybe


First, BMI is absolute crap. It is in no way a useful indicator of health, unless you are an untrained couch potato, in which case I doubt you need a calculator to tell you that you are fat, lazy and more likely to die from poor health.

Don't worry about what everyone else "is." Worry about what the best possible you looks like. If you expect to be someone else, you will always be frustrated and unhappy. That advice is free, the rest I'll be charging you for.

Get yourself on a well established routine for beginners. With your particular goals I will suggest you pick up the book (the paper square that they made you carry around in school) Muscle Logic (Charles Staley's Escalating Density Training). Randomly doing things isn't going to help you. Imagine you are in the middle of a lake trying to get to shore so you don't drown. If you decide to flail about you MAY get to the shore, but it is going to be a lot harder than if you just put your kicks and strokes together in some reasonable order

8 hours is a good amount of sleep. Some people need more or less, but 8 won't hurt.


I actually heard Jesus punched a kitten when he read this and I had to come see what would have pissed him off so badly.


...yup, I would punch a kitten right now if I could. Fortunately for the feline population, there are no cats in sight.

1. 8 hours is a suggested sleep time. Ideal is nowhere in that concept.
2. high rep low weight while cutting is, again, one idea. It does not represent the ultimate answer, nor even a "good" answer, IMO.
3. No lifting protocol will "shred you." Rabid wolverines shred you. Falling into a wood chipper would effectively shred you. Lifting weights will only make you A) bigger B) stronger. Losing fat is necessary to see enhanced definition, and frankly exercise is a pretty poor method of losing fat.
4. More weight and fewer reps will not "mass" anything. Not without the calories to support muscle gain.

*shakes head* please stop offering advice.

Finally someone came to their senses! I just got back from puking my brains out after reading some of the advice here. First, you are overtraining. I just finished coaching two groups of subjects on training protocols shorter, far more effective, for 4 days a week for a research study from Arizona State University in conjunction with Athletes' Performance Institute while I was interning there, the results: My two groups (5 subjects each) showed a SPIKE in cortisol levels and a drop in testosterone levels after only 5 weeks of training. Again, they were training 4 days in a week, two days on followed by a recovery day. Overtraining does not kill you, it just shows hoe dumb you are. They all had gains and results were even impressive, but the other two groups who did roughly half of the work they did HAD THE SAME RESULTS but without the cortisol and testosterone freak outs.
Second, your training is absolutely ineffective. If you are training that much you should either be getting all the results in the world or you are doing something wrong. Specially if you want to lean out and get "shredded", you need to worry about a more balanced work out, looking for higher metabolic stimulus while focusing on your diet. It does not matter what phase of training you are working on (foundations, hypertrophy, strength, power, olympic strength), to get cut you need to work your diet.

Honestly, some of the "advice" you are getting here are just plain stupid. Don't just believe on what people say, go study a bit. If you really can work on a single muscle group for a whole hour than your workout is absolutely terrible. I will make your group numb in 15 minutes, anyone can do that. Think of the most effective ways to increase hormonal response during recovery, thats when gains are made! Working out is just the stimulus.

Good luck man, any questions I would be glad to help you out just send me a message.

[CookAndrewB]

They all had gains and results were even impressive, but the other two groups who did roughly half of the work they did HAD THE SAME RESULTS but without the cortisol and testosterone freak outs.

Interesting... what did you conclude from this? Part of me says "Sure, you can get the same results with half the work." But the other part of me says "Maybe the cortisol/test issues aren't such a big deal after all?"

Curious to hear your take.

[Papa_GC]

Interesting... what did you conclude from this? Part of me says "Sure, you can get the same results with half the work." But the other part of me says "Maybe the cortisol/test issues aren't such a big deal after all?"

Curious to hear your take.

I think you took that the wrong way, the cortisol and testosterone levels ARE A BIG DEAL. The first thing I noticed was how easily irritated the subjects became. They also decrease their performance during workout sessions. The overtraining symptoms are very slight but they really affect us hard physiologically. 3 of the subjects had no history of getting sick very easily but they did in a time of the year they never used to. Some of them felt restless at night even though they were exhausted. Strength decreased. It was VERY evident for anyone in the study that the overtraining affected them, so my take on it is that training SMARTER over training HARDER will take you to success a lot sooner and for longer than the good old "let's go hard everyday" numbnuts.

Most of the plateau people hit at the gyms when they are training hard is due to this overtraining. There are a lot of smart ways to train and the reason it is important to train that way is for career productivity and longevity. You might get some results like they did, but the damage on their body didn't allow them to keep going. Every single subject in the overtraining groups had to recover for months before they felt motivated to work out again.

The study is not published yet, but I will be glad to post it once it comes out.

Any other questions feel free to ask, I am not here to "burn" anyone or try to act like the smartest guy out here, but whatever I can help with I will.

[NIguy]

I think you took that the wrong way, the cortisol and testosterone levels ARE A BIG DEAL. The first thing I noticed was how easily irritated the subjects became. They also decrease their performance during workout sessions. The overtraining symptoms are very slight but they really affect us hard physiologically. 3 of the subjects had no history of getting sick very easily but they did in a time of the year they never used to. Some of them felt restless at night even though they were exhausted. Strength decreased. It was VERY evident for anyone in the study that the overtraining affected them, so my take on it is that training SMARTER over training HARDER will take you to success a lot sooner and for longer than the good old "let's go hard everyday" numbnuts.

Most of the plateau people hit at the gyms when they are training hard is due to this overtraining. There are a lot of smart ways to train and the reason it is important to train that way is for career productivity and longevity. You might get some results like they did, but the damage on their body didn't allow them to keep going. Every single subject in the overtraining groups had to recover for months before they felt motivated to work out again.

The study is not published yet, but I will be glad to post it once it comes out.

Any other questions feel free to ask, I am not here to "burn" anyone or try to act like the smartest guy out here, but whatever I can help with I will.

I have a question or two;

1. What do you say to those individuals that workout say 6 times a weeks with a properly managed routine?
2. Many highly trained atheletes often build up to a high workload, does that study mean that they are overtraining?
3. These individuals you trained, at what stage were they with regards to training, just entered the gym, intermed, adv?
4. Why 5 weeks? do you think the gains would be the same over the course of the year for instance.
5. Did you measure muscle growth after a deload week? In my experience those people who train hardest in the run up to a deload gain the most on that deload.

Cheers.

[Papa_GC]

I have a question or two;

1. What do you say to those individuals that workout say 6 times a weeks with a properly managed routine?
2. Many highly trained atheletes often build up to a high workload, does that study mean that they are overtraining?
3. These individuals you trained, at what stage were they with regards to training, just entered the gym, intermed, adv?
4. Why 5 weeks? do you think the gains would be the same over the course of the year for instance.
5. Did you measure muscle growth after a deload week? In my experience those people who train hardest in the run up to a deload gain the most on that deload.

Cheers.

Good questions, here is what I think about it:

1. If the routine REALLY IS properly managed, then obviously they are ok. It is definitely possible to build a 6 days/week program that does not over train the person, but is it effective? Without any hormonal supplementation it will probably not be so effective. Now, you can always manage to have higher hormonal response days alternated with less stress/hormonal response days. It is tricky specially when trying to make a total body balance through all exercises chosen. But to answer your question, yes it is ok to have 6 days of working out, just not 6 hard days.

2. Some athletes do get up to very high work loads, but we do need to look at their sport. I spent time with John Godina, the olympic medalist shot putter watching him training his athletes and they do a lot of work. Though, they have 1/2 week off, or a whole week off every 4 - 6 weeks, and they do recovery protocols such as cold plunging EVERY WORK OUT DAY. I saw incredible results with those athletes, but they are professionals and do everything to take care of their bodies. I'm going to guess most gym guys don't cold plunge, for instance. Other athletes, such as team sports, do not train with high volume during season - it will decrease performance. Also, some athletes might train ineffectively too, my experience with professional athletes showed me that they are the masters of compensations. Most can't stand on one leg, but play their sport like masters. Skill is not trained in gyms.

3. I didn't know too much about the subjects but I did know they were all intermediate or highly advanced athletes. All in different types of sports but they all had a good athletic and strength training base - not any less than the usual gym rat. With increased tissue tolerance they could sustain more, but performance would still decrease. And yes, if they had good unload weeks they would have greater results. I say unload because that is what it is, not "deload". You unload, cut sets by roughly half.

4. I think, based on the time I spent with the subjects, which some became friends afterwards, that they would not last a year. By the end of the 10 wk period, most of them had chronic injuries flaring up or where already out of the study. 2 of them couldn't recover towards the end of the study and sustained muscle strains. Others just reported they absolutely hated everything related to working out and had reached a burned out stage.

5. I am sure they had a great recovery week after the study and probably reached gains, but the other group did so too. The purpose of the study is to show that smarter training can lead to same results as harder/overtraining protocols. It does not say that overtraining doesn't lead to results, but is it worth the risk of injury and bad physiological response? Any professional athlete will tell you; NO! They depend on their bodies, and overtraining is just too risky.

Overall, we know that recovery is the most important time of our workouts. It is when all our gains happen so it is just smart to make sure you have enough recovery time. If you body can handle it, go harder, but listen to it and measure results. You can't improve what you can't measure, and looking in the mirror is not a valid assessment.

Hope I was helpful!

[J.L.C.]

What makes you think you're overtraining??

Are you experiencing any symptoms of overtraining or even overreaching?

[chairmanMEOW]

a. not getting symptoms from overtraining, but curious if its something that'll harm me more than hurt me.

b. okay if what i'm doing is stupid, help me not be stupid. i've done versions of these beginning work outs but its not as long/often as i would like? anyone care to give me a sample intermediate that can totally kill me? haha i do it for the challenge more than the body but i'm sure there's a way i can do both if i work out smarter.

and thanks for the help everyone. i'm new and i appreciate how quick people are to help a newbie out

[daman622]

how you gonna listen to dudes that dont have abs and arent ripped about getting abs and getting ripped. Just doesnt make sense

[PinchTheBear]

how you gonna listen to dudes that dont have abs and arent ripped about getting abs and getting ripped. Just doesnt make sense

inb4 this kid gets ripped ..a new one

[Beech27]

how you gonna listen to dudes that dont have abs and arent ripped about getting abs and getting ripped. Just doesnt make sense

Perhaps because many "ripped" individuals have a genetic pre-disposition for leanness that allows them to stumble around aimlessly, yet still see results. I'd rather take advice from those for whom success is a result of intense learning and training; or more specifically, whose advice is supplemented with viable scientific research.

[PinchTheBear]

perhaps because many "ripped" individuals have a genetic pre-disposition for leanness that allows them to stumble around aimlessly.

snap

[chairmanMEOW]

okay. as good as it sounds to keep this troll-spree going, i still have to ask someone for concrete advice cause i've only gotten "yeah bro thats fine" and "no bro that sucks."

someone wanna step up and tell me how to fix my work out plan? and i've read the diet threads for cutting, i'm doing all that stuff. 500 calorie deficit, drinking lots of water, etc.

plz? haha and yes i prefer it from someone who has achieved with hard work and consistency

[BananaHammocks]

how you gonna listen to dudes that dont have abs and arent ripped about getting abs and getting ripped. Just doesnt make sense

Negged, and I'm very conservative usually when it comes to negging.

[Beech27]

okay. as good as it sounds to keep this troll-spree going, i still have to ask someone for concrete advice cause i've only gotten "yeah bro thats fine" and "no bro that sucks."

someone wanna step up and tell me how to fix my work out plan? and i've read the diet threads for cutting, i'm doing all that stuff. 500 calorie deficit, drinking lots of water, etc.

plz? haha and yes i prefer it from someone who has achieved with hard work and consistency

No one is telling you how to fix your workout because it isn't broken. Is it optimal? There's no way for anyone to know for sure, except you. And the only way to find out what works is to try things out. Which, of course, is not to say that research doesn't have a place, as it certainly does. I've found that I get my best results lifting four days a week, hitting everything twice. I don't do any cardio, and count my calories fairly strictly. But it took me a few years to figure this out. Lots reading, trial and error. Finally, I think you get the right idea with your last sentence. With hard work and consistency, you'll see results. Quickly? Probably not. But in time.

[CookAndrewB]

The study is not published yet, but I will be glad to post it once it comes out.

I really can't speak to this study until I've seen it. I have thoughts about it, but would rather speak to you about what I know than what I suspect.

I would like to point out that symptoms of overtraining are so incredibly general that I think people get fitness hypochondria where it is concerned. If I get a little sniffle I don't jump to the conclusion that I have anthrax, I start with the most likely answer (allergies, the common cold) and move on from there. So why then is it that we start with the "Anthrax" of the training world the moment someone doesn't get a good night's rest, or has a bad day in the gym, or is simply not educated enough to understand proper progression?

how you gonna listen to dudes that dont have abs and arent ripped about getting abs and getting ripped. Just doesnt make sense

I'll assume that you dropped in and voiced your ignorant oppinion because you like the color red.

[NIguy]

Good questions, here is what I think about it:

1. If the routine REALLY IS properly managed, then obviously they are ok. It is definitely possible to build a 6 days/week program that does not over train the person, but is it effective? Without any hormonal supplementation it will probably not be so effective. Now, you can always manage to have higher hormonal response days alternated with less stress/hormonal response days. It is tricky specially when trying to make a total body balance through all exercises chosen. But to answer your question, yes it is ok to have 6 days of working out, just not 6 hard days.

2. Some athletes do get up to very high work loads, but we do need to look at their sport. I spent time with John Godina, the olympic medalist shot putter watching him training his athletes and they do a lot of work. Though, they have 1/2 week off, or a whole week off every 4 - 6 weeks, and they do recovery protocols such as cold plunging EVERY WORK OUT DAY. I saw incredible results with those athletes, but they are professionals and do everything to take care of their bodies. I'm going to guess most gym guys don't cold plunge, for instance. Other athletes, such as team sports, do not train with high volume during season - it will decrease performance. Also, some athletes might train ineffectively too, my experience with professional athletes showed me that they are the masters of compensations. Most can't stand on one leg, but play their sport like masters. Skill is not trained in gyms.

3. I didn't know too much about the subjects but I did know they were all intermediate or highly advanced athletes. All in different types of sports but they all had a good athletic and strength training base - not any less than the usual gym rat. With increased tissue tolerance they could sustain more, but performance would still decrease. And yes, if they had good unload weeks they would have greater results. I say unload because that is what it is, not "deload". You unload, cut sets by roughly half.

4. I think, based on the time I spent with the subjects, which some became friends afterwards, that they would not last a year. By the end of the 10 wk period, most of them had chronic injuries flaring up or where already out of the study. 2 of them couldn't recover towards the end of the study and sustained muscle strains. Others just reported they absolutely hated everything related to working out and had reached a burned out stage.

5. I am sure they had a great recovery week after the study and probably reached gains, but the other group did so too. The purpose of the study is to show that smarter training can lead to same results as harder/overtraining protocols. It does not say that overtraining doesn't lead to results, but is it worth the risk of injury and bad physiological response? Any professional athlete will tell you; NO! They depend on their bodies, and overtraining is just too risky.

Overall, we know that recovery is the most important time of our workouts. It is when all our gains happen so it is just smart to make sure you have enough recovery time. If you body can handle it, go harder, but listen to it and measure results. You can't improve what you can't measure, and looking in the mirror is not a valid assessment.

Hope I was helpful!

Ok, cheers for the reply.

Here is what I think... As a generalisation most people don't overtrain, tiredness, increase stress, hormone levels flucuations don't really tell the full story - as I am sure you know. Overtraining is not black or white, you don't just suddenly wake up one day and you are overtrained yet the day previous you were perfectly fine, overtraining is an accumulation of fatigue that goes hand in hand with the process of training. Good programs are based on management of fatigue levels, knowing how to accumulate fatigue and then allieviate it is part of a functional training program - serious trainees pay very close attention reducing the effects of overtraining and there are alot of ways of combating overtraining within anyone program. I most likely display several signs of overtraining you listed above due to my training over the course of 6 weeks before I deload, but for the most part my muscles are capable of working to near maximum capacity and because of the layout of my program I do recieve greater benefit from doing legs, pull, push twice a week rather than just once.

In addition I don't necessary think that overtraining is a bad thing, infact I have read at least once that in the short term overtraining can desireable because the adaption of the body is proportional to the stress. Now this could be true or just dogma, but in my experience those guys who workout the most and the hardest are also the biggest and strongest.

So therefore I would suggest caution against broad stroaking training as a 4 day week affair based on one study, or indeed even a handful of studies. Instead I suggest each one be treated as a clue to the overall process of training rather than the ultimate answer. From what you have told me about your study it would seem highly unlikely that you were able to cover all bases of training.

I cannot however comment on the specifics of your paper without actually reading it and would appreciate it if you could send me a copy of it when it is published, your research sounds interesting and I would like to get a read of it when it is out. After that perhaps you, Cook and myself can get together and have a wee chin wag about it all

[CookAndrewB]

I cannot however comment on the specifics of your paper without actually reading it and would appreciate it if you could send me a copy of it when it is published, your research sounds interesting and I would like to get a read of it when it is out. After that perhaps you, Cook and myself can get together and have a wee chin wag about it all

Chin wag? My god man, speak English!

Actually my interest in a discussion, Papa, would be to look at ways for you (or someone) to go back and do more research while removing some frustrating variables that can cause findings to be inconclusive (or at least very questionable). I'm tickled pink that someone is doing research on weight training, but historically this research is very poorly conducted and that seems to cause more setbacks than advancements.

[Papa_GC]

Ok, cheers for the reply.

Here is what I think... As a generalisation most people don't overtrain, tiredness, increase stress, hormone levels flucuations don't really tell the full story - as I am sure you know. Overtraining is not black or white, you don't just suddenly wake up one day and you are overtrained yet the day previous you were perfectly fine, overtraining is an accumulation of fatigue that goes hand in hand with the process of training. Good programs are based on management of fatigue levels, knowing how to accumulate fatigue and then allieviate it is part of a functional training program - serious trainees pay very close attention reducing the effects of overtraining and there are alot of ways of combating overtraining within anyone program. I most likely display several signs of overtraining you listed above due to my training over the course of 6 weeks before I deload, but for the most part my muscles are capable of working to near maximum capacity and because of the layout of my program I do recieve greater benefit from doing legs, pull, push twice a week rather than just once.

In addition I don't necessary think that overtraining is a bad thing, infact I have read at least once that in the short term overtraining can desireable because the adaption of the body is proportional to the stress. Now this could be true or just dogma, but in my experience those guys who workout the most and the hardest are also the biggest and strongest.

So therefore I would suggest caution against broad stroaking training as a 4 day week affair based on one study, or indeed even a handful of studies. Instead I suggest each one be treated as a clue to the overall process of training rather than the ultimate answer. From what you have told me about your study it would seem highly unlikely that you were able to cover all bases of training.

I cannot however comment on the specifics of your paper without actually reading it and would appreciate it if you could send me a copy of it when it is published, your research sounds interesting and I would like to get a read of it when it is out. After that perhaps you, Cook and myself can get together and have a wee chin wag about it all

Hey guys, it has been a while but I have just now heard some news about the study so here it is:

First of all, I want to clarify that this is NOT MY STUDY, I was only part of it as the performance specialist training two groups of subjects. Secondly, I want to clarify that my comments on overtraining were guided towards the understanding that PERIODIZED training is more effective than overtraining or linear overload. There are very conclusive studies showing us that nonlinear periodization is just MORE EFFECTIVE than linear periodization. The effectiveness is due to the management of volume load according to specific phases of training. Look up Fleck and Kraemer (2004) on periodization!

"I would like to point out that symptoms of overtraining are so incredibly general that I think people get fitness hypochondria where it is concerned." - Cook

Cook, I certainly agree with your idea of "fitness hypochondria" - Further, I think overtraining is an absolutely relative term since tissue tolerance and conditioning will vary from one individual to another. Also, I define overtraining as excessive training due to ineffectiveness, and not a harmful alarming problem. I believe that, if you are training harder and for longer time than it is necessary to reach desired results - you are overtraining.

Now - latest news from the research - salivary sample results weren't as predictable as they thought it would be; though, qualitative analysis and psychological evaluations showed evidence of excessive stress response correlating with the gradual volume load increase during the 10wk training period. Leading to conclusions that linear overload for that long simply wasn't effective when compared to the other groups. My conclusion is: Why train harder and risk negative physiological response when you can train smarter and safer?

Good to hear your input!