Improved baseball performance?

[LifeisBaseball4]

How can I build strength for hitting and better arm strength, Speed for better base stealing and running down fly balls, and conditioning to stay in the game and be able defensively to play any position.

[XinApoK]

First of all, I am very well qualified to give you this answer.

Second of all, everything is tied together.

I dont know what level of baseball you are at, but i will assume that you are a senior in high school, or a freshman in college due to your age. Baseball players are graded on 5 tools. Arm, Speed, Power, Contact, Defense

All of those things can be improved by developing leg strength. Protect your arm but doing rotator cuff exercises. Help protect your ucl by developing forearm strength.

This is not a game of raw power. Master the mechanical aspect of the game and you will see much better results. work on your routes to fly balls, long toss with proper mechanics, hit off the tee and shoot the ball up the middle. If you want to condition, run every day.


It really is not about your strength... but strength is very conducive your goals.

If you have any specific questions, I am willing to help you.

Feel free to PM me if you want.

[LifeisBaseball4]

So whats a good routine or 2 to do. Weight training wise for all of this?

[XinApoK]

Honestly, there are more or less things you just need to avoid. Such as doing anything shoulder related at over 5 lbs. or perhaps doing barbell bench press. Just do standard lifts (squats, deadlifts, cleans, jump shrugs, db bench) and you will see results. Baseball is not about how yoked you are. Flexibility is king. Also, i do not want to give you a specific lift to do because i am not a certified trainer and i wouldnt want something that works for me, to hurt you.

[jonmd123]

First of all, I am very well qualified to give you this answer.

Second of all, everything is tied together.

I dont know what level of baseball you are at, but i will assume that you are a senior in high school, or a freshman in college due to your age. Baseball players are graded on 5 tools. Arm, Speed, Power, Contact, Defense

All of those things can be improved by developing leg strength. Protect your arm but doing rotator cuff exercises. Help protect your ucl by developing forearm strength.

This is not a game of raw power. Master the mechanical aspect of the game and you will see much better results. work on your routes to fly balls, long toss with proper mechanics, hit off the tee and shoot the ball up the middle. If you want to condition, run every day.


It really is not about your strength... but strength is very conducive your goals.

If you have any specific questions, I am willing to help you.

Feel free to PM me if you want.

Strong statement.

[jonmd123]

Honestly, there are more or less things you just need to avoid. Such as doing anything shoulder related at over 5 lbs. or perhaps doing barbell bench press. Just do standard lifts (squats, deadlifts, cleans, jump shrugs, db bench) and you will see results. Baseball is not about how yoked you are. Flexibility is king. Also, i do not want to give you a specific lift to do because i am not a certified trainer and i wouldnt want something that works for me, to hurt you.

Wonder if Matt Holliday does more than 5 pounds? http://i47.tinypic.com/ehygxc.jpg

[XinApoK]

Wonder if Matt Holliday does more than 5 pounds? http://i47.tinypic.com/ehygxc.jpg

Matt Holliday is probably not overly concerned with his rotator cuff considering that he drops absolute tanks. That being said, he does not do much more than 5 lbs if any. I understand the op said he was an outfielder. However, no intelligent baseball player will not do more than 5 lbs when dealing with shoulders unless they have a specific regime given to them by their professional trainer.. My trainers are extremely anal about the fact that shoulder injuries occur when putting a lot of strain on the rotator cuff. In case you are not aware, throwing is extremely unnatural, thus putting a tremendous amount of strain on your cuff. There is no need to put more strain on it, especially when you are 18 and not fully developed.


and yes, as far as the population here is concerned, i am well qualified. he does not have to take my advice, but it would help him a lot. I will not give you my credentials as i do not feel it to be important. Take my advice or dont.


If you would like to counter my points, feel free. I would be very interested in what you have to say seeing as how you have already contributed so much useful information here (sarcasm and matt holliday picture)

[jonmd123]

Matt Holliday is probably not overly concerned with his rotator cuff considering that he drops absolute tanks. That being said, he does not do much more than 5 lbs if any. I understand the op said he was an outfielder. However, no intelligent baseball player will not do more than 5 lbs when dealing with shoulders unless they have a specific regime given to them by their professional trainer.. My trainers are extremely anal about the fact that shoulder injuries occur when putting a lot of strain on the rotator cuff. In case you are not aware, throwing is extremely unnatural, thus putting a tremendous amount of strain on your cuff. There is no need to put more strain on it, especially when you are 18 and not fully developed.


and yes, as far as the population here is concerned, i am well qualified. he does not have to take my advice, but it would help him a lot. I will not give you my credentials as i do not feel it to be important. Take my advice or dont.


If you would like to counter my points, feel free. I would be very interested in what you have to say seeing as how you have already contributed so much useful information here (sarcasm and matt holliday picture)

More strong statements...

90% a baseball player's workout should be the same as a football player or a hockey player - squat, bench, deadlift, row, etc. As you added, throwing is stressful on your shoulder that is why there is some need to strengthen the tissues that decelerate the arm during the throwing action. Also, baseball is primarily a single-leg sport, so there is a need for a lot of unilateral and anti-rotational/rotational core work (but this is true for most sports).

There is no reason a healthy baseball player cannot barbell bench press or, heaven forbid, lift over 5 pounds over their head. If fact, these movements are what strengthen the rotator cuff muscles and improve their function. Isolated band and dumbbell work does very little to prevent injury of the shoulder and, if done incorrectly, I believe can actually increase the chance of injury, due to the strengthening of poor function.

If you were to look at an EMG of the rotator cuff muscles you would see they are only active for a split second and then they turn off. Because of this, they never reach anywhere near 100% of their MVC. These muscles are reflex/stability muscles - they respond to changes in the position of the shoulder and shoulder blade. Training these muscles in a slow isotonic fashion really does very little for their function. The best exercises for the rotator cuff muscles are movements like Bear Crawl, Bottom-Up Kettlebell Press, Bench Press, etc. These movements train the rotator cuff muscles to react and stabilize the shoulder as it moves through a full range of motion.

To the OP. Find a general sports performance program that builds general strength and explosiveness. Add in some bear crawls and kettlebell work for shoulder health. Hit homeruns.

[XinApoK]

How long have you been in baseball? You seem to think you have knowledge on the subject... yet you recommend things that are well known as being bad for the health of a baseball players arm. Why is it that at a professional trainer, (as in, somebody who trains professional baseball players for a living) will not allow his players to barbell bench or do any type of shoulders with more than 5 lbs??? You seem to have knowledge of general strength, but you lack the specific knowledge that comes with experience.

Barbell bench press is notorious for tightening baseball players across the chest... which surprisingly enough (not surprising at all) causes injuries. I apologize if I am coming off as rude but you honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I may not be a certified athletic trainer, but I have years of experience when it comes to being trained by the best in the business.


Also, this statement is probably one of the most ignorant comments I have ever read in regards to baseball strength training.

90% a baseball player's workout should be the same as a football player or a hockey player .

Also, I happen to have a strength and conditioning handbook from a professional organization right next to me. This is what it says about the rotator cuff. Please notice the last sentence...

[XinApoK]

More strong statements...

Those statements seem a little stronger now, don't they.

[jonmd123]

How long have you been in baseball? You seem to think you have knowledge on the subject... yet you recommend things that are well known as being bad for the health of a baseball players arm. Why is it that at a professional trainer, (as in, somebody who trains professional baseball players for a living) will not allow his players to barbell bench or do any type of shoulders with more than 5 lbs??? You seem to have knowledge of general strength, but you lack the specific knowledge that comes with experience.

Barbell bench press is notorious for tightening baseball players across the chest... which surprisingly enough (not surprising at all) causes injuries. I apologize if I am coming off as rude but you honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I may not be a certified athletic trainer, but I have years of experience when it comes to being trained by the best in the business.


Also, this statement is probably one of the most ignorant comments I have ever read in regards to baseball strength training.


Also, I happen to have a strength and conditioning handbook from a professional organization right next to me. This is what it says about the rotator cuff. Please notice the last sentence...

It appears you are still a little misguided. Here are a couple resources that you should appreciated. Rather than arguing with you I will let you read up. I will say one thing in regards to your link, however. The reason why it is recommended that isolated rotator cuff exercises be performed slow is because it prevents the stronger deltoid, lat, trap, and pec from kicking in. I agree, if performing isolated rotator cuff exercises you should perform them slow. I do however stand by my statement that isolated rotator cuff work is for less effective than reactive forms of training.

http://www.ericcressey.com/

http://graycook.com/

Here's a couple articles I pulled up with a quick search. I'm sure there are many more, but if you're open minded I'm sure you can find them.

http://www.ericcressey.com/clearing-...ff-controversy
http://www.ericcressey.com/training-...simultaneously

[XinApoK]

It appears you are still a little misguided. Here are a couple resources that you should appreciated. Rather than arguing with you I will let you read up. I will say one thing in regards to your link, however. The reason why it is recommended that isolated rotator cuff exercises be performed slow is because it prevents the stronger deltoid, lat, trap, and pec from kicking in. I agree, if performing isolated rotator cuff exercises you should perform them slow. I do however stand by my statement that isolated rotator cuff work is for less effective than reactive forms of training.

Strong response to my point.... I do my reps slow... I just do them with 5 lbs, as the instruct their players to do. Like I originally argued.

So here goes my last post because I am tired of dealing with your ignorant self. I apologize for what I am about to say but I feel like I need to say it for the OP's sake.

I am an all-american pitcher. I was drafted into professional baseball but declined to get my education. It pains me greatly to say this next part but I have never had a serious injury to my arm (knock on wood). My brother is a very successful major league baseball player who has also never had a serious injury. I have been playing baseball for as long as i can remember. I have trained under the best strength coaches in the business. "Business" - Their job. What they are paid to do. This major league conditioning manual right next to me is stating my points just as i have. I am going to read those articles, just not right now. However, those articles do not mean much to me due to the fact that I am a seasoned veteran. I understand that there are certain things that are not perfectly understood by major league clubs (such as nutrition) and that is perfectly fine. However, when dealing with the safety and longevity of players, they do not mess around. You see, when you invest millions of dollars into an athlete, it is in your best interest to keep them healthy. If this major league organization says you should only do 5 lbs when doing shoulders... you should probably listen.

Until I hear you state some type of real world evidence, I will not take you seriously. My 15 years playing baseball and my brothers 22 years playing baseball, both at the highest level possible have created a very lengthy "study" for us. So you can sit there and cite scientific studies or articles all you want. I will keep using my major league strength and conditioning hand book given to my brother by his organization. They have been doing their job very well for a very long time. They pay him a lot of money to be great, thus I would presume they want him to be healthy.

Honestly, you need to understand the difference between a situation where the proof is literally right in front of you and studies. There is a very specific reason that NO intelligent pitcher uses more than 5 lbs on his shoulders. That specific reason happens to be that over the last century, baseball conditioning and strength has seen countless improvements because they have learned what has worked for them. I am sick of arguing with you because you have no basis in the real world of baseball. I do. It is that simple. I know my **** when it comes to baseball as it is my job. It is my livelihood. It is how i will provide for my family. Can you say that? I doubt it.

[jonmd123]

Strong response to my point.... I do my reps slow... I just do them with 5 lbs, as the instruct their players to do. Like I originally argued.

So here goes my last post because I am tired of dealing with your ignorant self. I apologize for what I am about to say but I feel like I need to say it for the OP's sake.

I am an all-american pitcher. I was drafted into professional baseball but declined to get my education. It pains me greatly to say this next part but I have never had a serious injury to my arm (knock on wood). My brother is a very successful major league baseball player who has also never had a serious injury. I have been playing baseball for as long as i can remember. I have trained under the best strength coaches in the business. "Business" - Their job. What they are paid to do. This major league conditioning manual right next to me is stating my points just as i have. I am going to read those articles, just not right now. However, those articles do not mean much to me due to the fact that I am a seasoned veteran. I understand that there are certain things that are not perfectly understood by major league clubs (such as nutrition) and that is perfectly fine. However, when dealing with the safety and longevity of players, they do not mess around. You see, when you invest millions of dollars into an athlete, it is in your best interest to keep them healthy. If this major league organization says you should only do 5 lbs when doing shoulders... you should probably listen.

Until I hear you state some type of real world evidence, I will not take you seriously. My 15 years playing baseball and my brothers 22 years playing baseball, both at the highest level possible have created a very lengthy "study" for us. So you can sit there and cite scientific studies or articles all you want. I will keep using my major league strength and conditioning hand book given to my brother by his organization. They have been doing their job very well for a very long time. They pay him a lot of money to be great, thus I would presume they want him to be healthy.

Honestly, you need to understand the difference between a situation where the proof is literally right in front of you and studies. There is a very specific reason that NO intelligent pitcher uses more than 5 lbs on his shoulders. That specific reason happens to be that over the last century, baseball conditioning and strength has seen countless improvements because they have learned what has worked for them. I am sick of arguing with you because you have no basis in the real world of baseball. I do. It is that simple. I know my **** when it comes to baseball as it is my job. It is my livelihood. It is how i will provide for my family. Can you say that? I doubt it.

Good luck to you. I hope you make it!

[XinApoK]

Good luck to you. I hope you make it!

By the way i read your articles... they are doing 5 lbs when working their cuffs. But i enjoyed the read so thank.


Also, thank you for your best wishes.

[mbland02]

I love jumping into a pissing match. I think that both of your statements are correct. but in my experience which to the second poster is also very extensive and knowledgeable on the subject, it is hard to just jump to a broad statement and say hey don't use over 5 pounds for your shoulders. I think it is a lot of times dependent on the individual in question. I would do a lot of overhead movements because personally when I had stronger traps and delts my shoulder would feel and recover a lot quicker after a game that I would start I could even come back on my second off day and close. But I will agree with you for the general public and somebody that is not that old and does not know his body or have good body awareness the overhead movements should be kept very light and focus on the contraction of the muscle. stick with the main lifts deads squats lots of single leg squats lunges, lats and core core I would say is the most important. doing the sleeper stretch daily and doing ytwls with a soup can over a fitness ball. Once you learn a little bit more about your body then it would be a completely different thing to try in the off season some overhead type lifts to strengthen shoulders and traps.

[a_emory]

Spartans, lay down your weapons!

Ha had to say that.


OP, my answer to your question is Crossfit. It is how I train. I wouldn't worry about heavy shoulder movements SO LONG AS THEY (the movements) ARE FUNCTIONAL.

I have a feeling that part of the confusion in this thread between Xin and Jon is just a communication issue and I would like to distinguish between say shoulder press, certainly Xin did not mean you cannot shoulder press more than five pounds, and external rotation exercises for your shoulder.

That being said I work closely w/ a clinic that works w/ the Cardinals. Not too long ago one of the doctors told me that you want to be able to do 10% of your 1rep max on bench for a set of eight reps of external shoulder rotation (some of the muscles that decelerate your arm).

I am very careful with this exercise as it is not functional, and I can tell, clearly dangerous. I do a set of 12 at varrying angles w/ like 5 or 8 lbs. Then a set of 10 at 12lbs, another set of 10 at 15lbs. Then sets of 8 w/ 20 and 25lbs. I was told not to do less than 8 reps as your are not really trying to build size and strength like you are w/ most lifting.

25 lbs is my 8 rep max for external shoulder rotation. Now I don't know what my 1rep max for bench press is but I am pretty sure it's over 300. So, clearly I have some work to do.

And clearly, different clubs have different approaches, as do different athletes. Two good examples Matt Holiday and Matt Carpenter. Holiday is a beast who kind of has a "hulk smash" approach to hitting. And if he hits the ball to right field it is usually an accident. Holiday is probably about twice as strong as Carpenter. But Carpenter is probably more skilled.

So Holliday spent a lot of his time getting jacked while Carpenter spent a lot of his time learning to hit the ball to the opposite field. Both are successful major league players and neither is right and neither is wrong (though I do think the best player would be more a combination of the two).

OP, decide for yourself who want to be. Rather than following a path suggested here, blaze your own trail.

[Bballer99]

Spartans, lay down your weapons!

Ha had to say that.


OP, my answer to your question is Crossfit. It is how I train. I wouldn't worry about heavy shoulder movements SO LONG AS THEY (the movements) ARE FUNCTIONAL.

I have a feeling that part of the confusion in this thread between Xin and Jon is just a communication issue and I would like to distinguish between say shoulder press, certainly Xin did not mean you cannot shoulder press more than five pounds, and external rotation exercises for your shoulder.

That being said I work closely w/ a clinic that works w/ the Cardinals. Not too long ago one of the doctors told me that you want to be able to do 10% of your 1rep max on bench for a set of eight reps of external shoulder rotation (some of the muscles that decelerate your arm).

I am very careful with this exercise as it is not functional, and I can tell, clearly dangerous. I do a set of 12 at varrying angles w/ like 5 or 8 lbs. Then a set of 10 at 12lbs, another set of 10 at 15lbs. Then sets of 8 w/ 20 and 25lbs. I was told not to do less than 8 reps as your are not really trying to build size and strength like you are w/ most lifting.

25 lbs is my 8 rep max for external shoulder rotation. Now I don't know what my 1rep max for bench press is but I am pretty sure it's over 300. So, clearly I have some work to do.

And clearly, different clubs have different approaches, as do different athletes. Two good examples Matt Holiday and Matt Carpenter. Holiday is a beast who kind of has a "hulk smash" approach to hitting. And if he hits the ball to right field it is usually an accident. Holiday is probably about twice as strong as Carpenter. But Carpenter is probably more skilled.

So Holliday spent a lot of his time getting jacked while Carpenter spent a lot of his time learning to hit the ball to the opposite field. Both are successful major league players and neither is right and neither is wrong (though I do think the best player would be more a combination of the two).

OP, decide for yourself who want to be. Rather than following a path suggested here, blaze your own trail.

Weren't you the guys who got his thread closed for advertising crossfit?

Also, crossfit is not that great for athletes in team sports. There was a pro football player who decided crossfit would increase his playing performance, but it did the opposite as he lost muscle mass and strength. He quit XFit, did a regular strength routine, and did better than his Xfit season. (Those who claim bull****, look up elgintensity's video on youtube called crossfit the worst football training program)

Also, if I constantly get trapped under my bed and have to push it up while laying down, does that make the bench press functional for me?

[a_emory]

The bench press is functional.

As for advertising Crossfit, I want to be clear, when I talk about Crossfit I do not mean the brand. I mean the approach to your training. Obviously people who only do Crossfit are only interested in Crossfit. If I suggest it for someone's exercise routine it should be considered as a core approach, not the end all be all.

And what I mean by this is a way of thinking. Everyone focuses on the low standards of some coaches. But what about the flip side of the standard coin. Crossfit has created some very real (maybe a better word for that is badass) athletes.

The key thing to understand is to attack your weaknesses. The next thing is to focus on is your goals.

[Bballer99]

The bench press is functional.

As for advertising Crossfit, I want to be clear, when I talk about Crossfit I do not mean the brand. I mean the approach to your training. Obviously people who only do Crossfit are only interested in Crossfit. If I suggest it for someone's exercise routine it should be considered as a core approach, not the end all be all.

And what I mean by this is a way of thinking. Everyone focuses on the low standards of some coaches. But what about the flip side of the standard coin. Crossfit has created some very real (maybe a better word for that is badass) athletes.

The key thing to understand is to attack your weaknesses. The next thing is to focus on is your goals.

You're somewhat right I guess. But for athletes, crossfit football is a better alternative (even if you don't play football)

Also dude, your recommending crossfit to people on a bodybuilding site is obviously gonna be criticized (even in the sports training section)

And the way you're thinking that the bench press is functional is really the overhead press. Mainly because you're not lying on a bench.

[reddevilTE95]

I believe I agree with Jon on this one, or maybe I just disagree with Xin.

I have also have been playing baseball for 15 years and seeing as I also play football, often do Bench Presses, DB Shoulder Press, BB Shoulder Press, as well as Front and Lateral Raises during workouts. So far in my baseball career I have had 0 serious shoulder/arm injuries so from my personal experience I would personally have to disagree with your belief that OP should avoid those lifts. Now what works and has worked for me may not work for everyone else and perhaps I am simply extremely blessed.

Also, I don't see how the tightening of the chest would cause an issue for a baseball player other than minor inconvenience so that argument didn't make a lot of sense to me.

Addressing another point you made: perhaps a professional baseball trainer would not prefer his athletes to BB Bench Press or Work shoulders over 5 lbs. because he would rather be safe than sorry. Obviously these lifts do put stress on the shoulders and he feels that added stress on top of the stress from throwing a baseball are unnecessary. Or perhaps he just does not feel the need to strengthen the shoulder muscles but would like to reap the mobility improving benefits of that particular movement.

And lastly, as you have stated you were an all-american and drafted into professional baseball out of high school. Could you possibly pm me your name so I may do a quick google search to confirm this? I can assure your anonymity, I would just like to see if your statements are true as a google search of "2011 MLB Draft Greenville, NC" and "2012 MLB Draft Greenville, NC" have turned up no results. Thanks.