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    Bose-Einstein condensate relating to the singularity (explains big bang?)

    The Bose-Einstein condensate occurs at a billionth of a degree above absolute zero. The coldest sections of the universe are about 2-3 k, but only because of the radiation from the big bang which leads me to believe that a natural disposition of space would tend to absolute zero. The big bang theory states that every atom in the universe originated from a singular point. It makes sense that the Bose-Einstein condensation would have played a vital role in the big bang - it would only take the movement of a billionth kelvin for the atoms to expand away from the condensation, and then it would be like an inevitable and massive avalanche.

    thoughts?
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    The Bose-Einstein condensate occurs at a billionth of a degree above absolute zero. The coldest sections of the universe are about 2-3 k, but only because of the radiation from the big bang which leads me to believe that a natural disposition of space would tend to absolute zero. The big bang theory states that every atom in the universe originated from a singular point. It makes sense that the Bose-Einstein condensation would have played a vital role in the big bang - it would only take the movement of a billionth kelvin for the atoms to expand away from the condensation, and then it would be like an inevitable and massive avalanche.

    thoughts?
    Too complicated. Prefer magical resolution so brain not hurt as much.

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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    The Bose-Einstein condensate occurs at a billionth of a degree above absolute zero. The coldest sections of the universe are about 2-3 k, but only because of the radiation from the big bang which leads me to believe that a natural disposition of space would tend to absolute zero. The big bang theory states that every atom in the universe originated from a singular point. It makes sense that the Bose-Einstein condensation would have played a vital role in the big bang - it would only take the movement of a billionth kelvin for the atoms to expand away from the condensation, and then it would be like an inevitable and massive avalanche.

    thoughts?
    Hypothetically, if the singular point of origin of the big bang was surrounded by a steady ultra-cool temperature environment at a billionth of a degree above absolute zero...




















    ...where did that billionth-of-a-degree-in-heat come from?


    Did i add some temperature to your mind whereupon it instantly expanded at a steady rate?
    → 92b


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    The Admiral neonhypoxia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    The Bose-Einstein condensate occurs at a billionth of a degree above absolute zero. The coldest sections of the universe are about 2-3 k, but only because of the radiation from the big bang which leads me to believe that a natural disposition of space would tend to absolute zero. The big bang theory states that every atom in the universe originated from a singular point. It makes sense that the Bose-Einstein condensation would have played a vital role in the big bang - it would only take the movement of a billionth kelvin for the atoms to expand away from the condensation, and then it would be like an inevitable and massive avalanche.

    thoughts?
    Oh hell, where to being.

    First off no where in the universe is cold enough to form a condensate naturally. That 3k temperature is still several million times hotter than what you need to form a condensate and there is nowhere that's going to be protected from the background radiation. The're a lab only kind of thing. Also when the condensate heats up and is destroyed as the function start to seperate out instead of overlapping it doesn't just explode. It basically just sort of falls apart. Its not like a bomb going off or anything like that.

    Also the Big Bang is not at all an explosion. You have matter in a small area not because its somehow packed in, but because that's all the space there was at the time. Its not an explosion but instead its just space expanding and the density of matter going down because he has a large volume it can occupy. So no explosion, no actual bang at all. If the name is misleading that's because the term was originally meant to mock it, and it just sort of caught on.

    Also there wasn't a singularity. If you keep going backwards in time the universe will continue to get smaller and if you go far enough eventually it would be infinitesimal. The catch is that none of the models go back that far. They do go back until its extremely, unbelievably small, but not infinitesimal. None of the concepts that we have for the formation of the universe start out with it being infinitesimal, there are all small but still finite. Although even if that wasn't the case you can't get a condensate into an infinitesimal area anyways.

    Now having said all of that, condensates are still really cool.
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    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Hagakure24 View Post
    Hypothetically, if the singular point of origin of the big bang was surrounded by a steady ultra-cool temperature environment at a billionth of a degree above absolute zero...

    ...where did that billionth-of-a-degree-in-heat come from?


    Did i add some temperature to your mind whereupon it instantly expanded at a steady rate?
    i dunno lol. something to do with quantum physics which eludes my mental capacities at the moment

    here's my guess though: quantum particles pop in and out space. if the condensate was infinitely small then there would be a very small chance of a quantum particle popping into it, but if one did then it would act as a catalyst for its expansion.
    Originally Posted by neonhypoxia View Post
    Oh hell, where to being.

    First off no where in the universe is cold enough to form a condensate naturally. That 3k temperature is still several million times hotter than what you need to form a condensate and there is nowhere that's going to be protected from the background radiation. The're a lab only kind of thing. Also when the condensate heats up and is destroyed as the function start to seperate out instead of overlapping it doesn't just explode. It basically just sort of falls apart. Its not like a bomb going off or anything like that.
    well yeah, no where in the universe right now is able to reach absolute zero because of the radiation of the big bang. this radiation wouldn't precede the big bang, so why couldn't absolute zero be achieved?

    and i didn't say the break down of the condensate was an explosion?

    Originally Posted by neonhypoxia View Post
    Also the Big Bang is not at all an explosion. You have matter in a small area not because its somehow packed in, but because that's all the space there was at the time. Its not an explosion but instead its just space expanding and the density of matter going down because he has a large volume it can occupy. So no explosion, no actual bang at all. If the name is misleading that's because the term was originally meant to mock it, and it just sort of caught on.
    I didn't say the big bang was an explosion.
    Originally Posted by neonhypoxia View Post
    Also there wasn't a singularity. If you keep going backwards in time the universe will continue to get smaller and if you go far enough eventually it would be infinitesimal. The catch is that none of the models go back that far. They do go back until its extremely, unbelievably small, but not infinitesimal. None of the concepts that we have for the formation of the universe start out with it being infinitesimal, there are all small but still finite. Although even if that wasn't the case you can't get a condensate into an infinitesimal area anyways.

    Now having said all of that, condensates are still really cool.
    why not? no one has actually achieved absolute zero before. perhaps actually achieving absolute zero would allow this.

    i'm glad you replied so quickly lol, this thread was basically directed to you. you're a physicist/mathematician, right?
    Last edited by shadowwalker021; 02-04-2010 at 08:41 PM.
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    Stuff Rune's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    no one has actually achieved absolute zero before. perhaps actually achieving absolute zero would allow this.
    You can't physically get to absolute zero, I mean unless you can some how create some kind of pocket of space that exists outside of our universe.. that would be kind of cool.
    Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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    The Admiral neonhypoxia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    uhhhh

    i dunno lol. something to do with quantum physics which eludes my mental capacities at the moment

    well yeah, no where in the universe right now is able to reach absolute zero because of the radiation of the big bang. this radiation wouldn't precede the big bang, so why couldn't absolute zero be achieved?

    and i didn't say the break down of the condensate was an explosion?


    I didn't say the big bang was an explosion.

    why not? no one has actually achieved absolute zero before. perhaps actually achieving absolute zero would allow this.

    i'm glad you replied so quickly lol, this thread was basically directed to you. you're a physicist/mathematician, right?
    Ah, I thought from your first post you were implying it was an explosiong. I may have just misread but it came off like that to me.

    Even at absolute zero if you somehow managed to acheive it, they still couldn't be infinitesimal. 0k only removes all thermal energy, but there is still energy within the system. Because of that the size of the waveforms are still finite, they won't ever become infinitesimal. In order to do that you would somehow have to remove all of the energy from the system. So no electrons in orbitals around the nucleus, or protons or neutrons in orbitals in the nucleus. No seperation at all between particles with any kind of attractive charge, and somehow infinite distance between particles with repulsive charges which um, would be an issue with an infinitesimal area. Even mass causes an associated wavelength. So infinitesimal doesn't work. (Side note, this may seem somewhat confusing as the singularity within a black hole is usually described as being infinitesimal in pop culture. It actually isn't and does have a minumum size via compton wavelength.)

    And even the ambient radiation is an issue. Even empty space, even prior to background radiation, still gives off energy. Vacuum energy would still keep it above 0k.
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    The Admiral neonhypoxia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    You can't physically get to absolute zero, I mean unless you can some how create some kind of pocket of space that exists outside of our universe.. that would be kind of cool.
    And it would have to be a different space from what we live in. D*mn you vacuum energy! *shakes fist at empty space*
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    I also don't really follow how you relate a singularity to a BEC... the two things are quite different.
    Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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    Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    I also don't really follow how you relate a singularity to a BEC... the two things are quite different.
    really? it makes logical sense to me. but reading yours and neonhypoxia's responses, i guess it isn't naturally possible. oh well, i thought it was an interesting idea
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    really? it makes logical sense to me. but reading yours and neonhypoxia's responses, i guess it isn't naturally possible. oh well, i thought it was an interesting idea
    Well, I mean in general a BEC will always occupy a fairly large volume of space, it's just a good portion of the atoms will be in the same quantum state (same wave function). A singularity on the other hand represents an asymptote as the volume of space goes towards zero.

    So you see how it can be confusing if your talking about something that will take up a definite volume, vs something that by definition has a volume as close to zero as is possible.
    Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    really? it makes logical sense to me. but reading yours and neonhypoxia's responses, i guess it isn't naturally possible. oh well, i thought it was an interesting idea
    The're pretty different objects. A condensate is where the waveforms of multiple particles overlap in a way that they start acting together almost like a single object. A singularity on the other hand has to do with space being curved around the object until the metric goes to infinity. This is a really bad way to put it but I'm having trouble thinking of any other way; essentialy in a singularity space has folded in on itself. So one is a group of particles getting together and almost acting like they were just one particle, and a singularity is space pulling a WTF.
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    The Admiral neonhypoxia's Avatar
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    Rune, we have to stop posting in the same threads. We end up saying almost the same thing just worded differently, and we keep posting at almost exactly the same time.







    Wait...







    Are you reading my thoughts somehow Rune? Get out of my head!
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    Stuff Rune's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by neonhypoxia View Post
    Are you reading my thoughts somehow Rune? Get out of my head!
    I think I might be... I try to de-mathify them slightly though.



    Yes, I did just make that word up.
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    Originally Posted by neonhypoxia View Post
    Rune, we have to stop posting in the same threads. We end up saying almost the same thing just worded differently, and we keep posting at almost exactly the same time.







    Wait...







    Are you reading my thoughts somehow Rune? Get out of my head!
    you never answered my question before, are you a physicist or a mathematician or both?
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    you never answered my question before, are you a physicist or a mathematician or both?
    Both, however my physics is only a B.S. so I don't really think its fair to count that. A B.S. in physics is still a long way from being an expert on the subject.
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