so instead of "who's better than whom" at QB...

[kethnaab]

what about focusing on "tiers"?

arguments about who's better, Brady or Manning, will continue to go back and forth probably until one retires and/or one goes through a late-career "breakout" a la Bradshaw or Rich Gannon.

So what about tiers (alphabetical order within tiers)

Tier 1 are guys who are "fully developed", prime-time QBs, and are on the fast track to the Hall of Fame. They aren't really getting any better, just wiser

Tier 2 are younger guys who are "almost there", but still have flaws in their games that need to be rectified. They have enough youth to demonstrate that they will obviously be hitting Tier 1 within the next few seasons. As they gain experience, their success and abilities will increase dramatically. Basically, they will comprise Tier 1 in about 3-4 years

Tier 3 are a mixture of guys who are also "almost there" but either haven't demonstrated consistency or have nagging flaws in their games that are tough to ignore. Tons of potential to jump up, but could possibly drop down as well

Tier 4 are guys that are either past their prime, very inconsistent, or are still very young with a good bit of potential that haven't had a full opportunity to demonstrate yet

Tier 1 - Brady, Brees, Manning, Warner, Favre
Tier 2 - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers
Tier 3 - Schaub, Romo, Eli, Cutler
Tier 4 - McNabb, Cassel, Ryan, Palmer

so, flame away....

[SpiderSense]

This will eventually turn into Manning vs. Brady and how Peyton is on another level from everybody else.

It was worth a shot though.

[SpiderSense]

Jay Cutler on a higher tier than Donovan McNabb?

[ezmac31]

schaub, cutler, and eli are not above McNabb...brett favre is not a 1st tier Qb in the NFL, this isnt the 1990s..

[spirit3530]

what about focusing on "tiers"?

arguments about who's better, Brady or Manning, will continue to go back and forth probably until one retires and/or one goes through a late-career "breakout" a la Bradshaw or Rich Gannon.

So what about tiers (alphabetical order within tiers)

Tier 1 are guys who are "fully developed", prime-time QBs, and are on the fast track to the Hall of Fame. They aren't really getting any better, just wiser

Tier 2 are younger guys who are "almost there", but still have flaws in their games that need to be rectified. They have enough youth to demonstrate that they will obviously be hitting Tier 1 within the next few seasons. As they gain experience, their success and abilities will increase dramatically. Basically, they will comprise Tier 1 in about 3-4 years

Tier 3 are a mixture of guys who are also "almost there" but either haven't demonstrated consistency or have nagging flaws in their games that are tough to ignore. Tons of potential to jump up, but could possibly drop down as well

Tier 4 are guys that are either past their prime, very inconsistent, or are still very young with a good bit of potential that haven't had a full opportunity to demonstrate yet

Tier 1 - Brady, Brees, Manning, Warner, Favre
Tier 2 - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers
Tier 3 - Schaub, Romo, Eli, Cutler
Tier 4 - McNabb, Cassel, Ryan, Palmer

so, flame away....

C'mon keith. He may not have won the big game but he DOESN'T deserve 4th tier. Thats bull****. McNaab is a second tier QB

[Nodice123]

This will eventually turn into Manning vs. Brady and how Peyton is on another level from everybody else.

It was worth a shot though.

I am glad you are finally coming to your senses

[SpiderSense]

I am glad you are finally coming to your senses

I never said I agree, it's just pretty easy to think on the same wavelength as retards like you.

It goes like this: "If I drooled all over myself and wore pampers, what would I say in this instance? I got it: "durrr Peytum Maneeng iz on teh uther levallz".

And then I get out of character (of pretending I'm you) and revert back to my normal genius self.

[Nodice123]

I never said I agree, it's just pretty easy to think on the same wavelength as retards like you.

It goes like this: "If I drooled all over myself and wore pampers, what would I say in this instance? I got it: "durrr Peytum Maneeng iz on teh uther levallz".

And then I get out of character (of pretending I'm you) and revert back to my normal genius self.

Yeah bro just remember who had to turn the argument to personal insults.

I'm sorry I know more about football than you

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1939911&page=6

[SpiderSense]

You'll get over it.

[Nodice123]

You'll get over it.

Oh trust me I'm not insulted at all.

LMFAO just cause something is an insult doesn't mean it's effective.

**** went from making points to "dur you're an idiot".

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1939911&page=6

[JRRBadBoy4Life]

Tier 1 - Brady, Brees, Manning, Warner, Favre
Tier 2 - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers
Tier 3 - Schaub, Romo, Eli, Cutler
Tier 4 - McNabb, Cassel, Ryan, Palmer

so, flame away....

I know you hate McNabb, but putting him below Romo, Schaub, and Cutler is a joke, right? Like it or not he is going to be in the hall of fame some day. First of all, he's the most accomplished black QB to date. That alone will give him some votes. Personally, I would put him at Tier 2, and probably drop Rodgers to tier 3 because he just hasn't been doing it long enough for me to believe he's going to continue doing it for another 10 years.

I like Brees, but I'm not ready to say he's on the fast track to the hall of fame just yet. I drop him to Tier 2. My version of Tier 2 I would consider all likely future hall of famers, but only McNabb as a current hall of famer if all Tier 2's carreers ended today.

After Cutler's performance this past year, I must drop him to Tier 4. I'm just not sure he'll be able to recover to a top 10 quarterback in the NFL any time soon. Also, Schaub is good but not quite Tier 3 in my book.


Tier 1 - Brady, Manning, Warner, Favre
Tier 2 - Ben, Rivers, Brees, McNabb
Tier 3 - Romo, Eli, Rodgers
Tier 4 - Cassel, Ryan, Palmer, Schaub, Cutler


LOL, I just realized that your definitions of Tiers are totally different from what I was thinking. But I still think McNabb will be a HOF'er. And no I'm not a huge McFann, but I've watched a game live at Fedex field and witnessed him singlehandedly take apart my beloved Redskins. This was years ago, but he's been a winning quarterback for quite some time now minus one or 2 seasons.

[IraHays]

hahaha, McNabb 4th tier. I love it. Eagle fan, you mad?

[SpiderSense]

**** went from making points to "dur you're an idiot".

*sigh*

The difference Nodice, is that you and I were currently involved in a back and forth discussion.

When you couldn't take me countering your points anymore you decided to make with personal insults.

With this here, who made any points?

Nobody.

All you did was try turning my words around on me, to which I clarified what I meant with some colorful language.

I said this would turn into people saying how Manning was on his own level, and you came in and took that bait by agreeing, so all you really did was prove my point.

So as for your attempts at thinking you can get on my level?

No dice.

[IraHays]

You forgot Tebow on your tier 1 list.

[JRRBadBoy4Life]

hahaha, McNabb 4th tier. I love it. Eagle fan, you mad?

The numbers: As it stands, McNabb has 4303 attempts (32nd all time) with 2534 completions(26th) for 29,320 yards (33rd) with 194 touchdowns (34th) and only 90 interceptions. So in the four most important statistical categories he's in the top 35. So for right now he's already of Hall of Famers Terry Bradshaw (in yards, attempts, and completions), Len Dawson (in the same three categories), and Troy Aikman (touchdowns). There are two other stats where he is light years ahead of darn near everybody: interception percentage (the percent of his passes that get picked off) and touchdown/interception ratio. His interception percentage is 2.1; the Hall of Famer that come closest is Joe Montana with 2.6. Think about that for a minute; Donovan McNabb throws interceptions at a lower rate than every quarterback in the Hall of Fame ever did. His TD/Int ratio is 2.16 to 1; the only Hall of Famer of McNabb's era who fares better is Steve Young with 2.17. The next closest one to McNabb is Joe Montana with 1.96. Compared with active players McNabb falls behind only Tom Brady's 2.29.

The Awards: McNabb has been to the Pro Bowl five times. He is admittedly lacking here. That's more than Bradshaw and Jim Kelly, but Bradshaw has four Super Bowl rings and Super Bowl MVPs to make up for it while Kelly was first team All Pro once.

Postseason success: McNabb is a little short here, too. One Super Bowl appearance, four trips to the NFC championship game, and a 7-5 overall playoff record. He's better than Marino's 8-10 with one Super Bowl appearance, but that's about it. If you take away the Super Bowl year Manning is 3-7, but when you add it in he's 7-7 with a ring. Warren Moon is 3-7, but that's mitigated by the five CFL titles he won. Sorry Donovan, you're coming up short here.

Mitigating Circumstances: Here's where McNabb again trumps his competition. Every Hall of Fame quarterback of recent vintage played several years with at least one receiver who was at best a Hall of Famer himself and at worst a consistent 1,000 yard receiver. McNabb has done this twice, in 2004 with Terrell Owens and in 2007 with Kevin Curtis. No other Eagle receiver has gotten over 1,000 yards the entire time McNabb has played there. Marino, Aikman, Moon, Young, Montana, and Elway all had at least on receiver go for 1,000 yards in over half of their seasons as starters. So have Favre and Manning. The only current Hall of Famer with a ratio similar to McNabb's is Jim Kelly, but he already has one of his receivers in the Hall (James Lofton) and a second who may be there soon. Tom Brady has only had a 1,000 receiver three times in seven years, but he'll have at least another two years or so with Randy Moss and Wes Welker so that will be changing soon. To be blunt, McNabb has had the worst receiving corp of any big-time quarterback in who knows how long. You can't find a Hall of Fame quarterback who didn't have at least one guy who is in the Hall of Fame, got 1,000 yards a bunch of times, or was at least known for making big plays.

The Verdict Numbers wise, he'll be fine. He's bound to crack the top 20 in yards, attempts, completions, and touchdowns soon. He may even break the top ten in some of those. In terms of accolades, it'll be hard to get more Pro Bowls with Drew Brees in New Orleans and Eli Manning in New York. He may squeak in one or two more. First team All-Pro just isn't going to happen at this point. He'll likely get a few more playoff victories since the Eagles will be competitive for the near future, but a Super Bowl run is hard to imagine right now. I think there will be some real debate over it, with people taking strong positions on either side. I think the lack of receivers helps him; has anyone done more with less, save Elway in the eighities? In my book, he's a Hall of Famer







Read the bold, hard to believe but holy ****.

[SpiderSense]

Tier 1a. posters: SpiderSense

Tier 1b. posters: God, aka Jehova, Om, The alpha and the omega

Tier 29,000z. posters: Nodice123

[spirit3530]

Yeah I agree that I didn't read the tier examples well BUT you made the survey biased toward dropping McNaab in the bottom tier when you have guys that have "potential" to do what he did. You can't drop him in the 4th tier when he went to 5 championship games and 4 Division titles. Up and comers that haven't proved ANYTHING can't be in front of him. The only people ahead of him ore on par with him have to be SB winners or equivalent stats to his championships appearances.

Thats like saying Trent Dilfer is better than Marino and Jim Kelly. SO like the above poster said. He may not be top tier but he is on the second level. Like I have always said you put Don on a run first team, and strong defense and he will win that SB. Putting him on a pass heavy team is not playing to his strengths. He wins inspite of that.

[Messiahtype]

Using 2009 as a measuring stick, and not taking into account past failures or successes:

Tier 1 - Brady, Brees, Manning, Warner, Favre: agree
Tier 2 - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers, Schaub-Led NFL in passing yards, 5th in TD passes
Tier 3 - Romo, Eli, McNabb-completion pct and TD's were about the same as Cutler(factoring Donovan missed 2 games), but Cutler threw 16 more picks. 16!
Tier 4 - Palmer, Cutler, Ryan

[SpiderSense]

I'm really failing to see how Cutler is even making anybody's list.

[IraHays]

[b]Schaub-Led NFL in passing yards,

mind = blown.

[Nodice123]

*sigh*

The difference Nodice, is that you and I were currently involved in a back and forth discussion.

When you couldn't take me countering your points anymore you decided to make with personal insults.

With this here, who made any points?

Nobody.

All you did was try turning my words around on me, to which I clarified what I meant with some colorful language.

I said this would turn into people saying how Manning was on his own level, and you came in and took that bait by agreeing, so all you really did was prove my point.

So as for your attempts at thinking you can get on my level?

No dice.

So when I use your name to make light of your comments it's nonsense. However when you use mine it's somehow genius?? lol oooooooooooooooooooooooooooook



*SIGH**SIGH**SIGH**SIGH**SIGH**SIGH**SIGH**SIGH**S IGH**SIGH**SIGH**SIGH*

[Messiahtype]

I'm really failing to see how Cutler is even making anybody's list.

If he is "Tier 4", he's the 13th, 14th, or 15th best QB in the NFL. That's pretty accurate. He's better than Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, the 3 rookies, Fatmarcus, the shell of Matt Hasselbeck, VY10, etc.

[rampagefc77]

How about some current tiers? Ones which do not care if you did something 5-10 years ago... Bringing up stats from 8 years ago to justify a QB being in the top tier of QBs currently is flawed imo.

[Miked1978]

Jay Cutler on a higher tier than Donovan McNabb?

This, not to mention Romo. McNabb should be in same tier as Romo at least.

[SpiderSense]

If he is "Tier 4", he's the 13th, 14th, or 15th best QB in the NFL. That's pretty accurate. He's better than Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, the 3 rookies, Fatmarcus, the shell of Matt Hasselbeck, VY10, etc.

LULZ Jay Cutler is NOT better than Matt Hasselback.

Everybody else I agree with.

[SpiderSense]

So when I use your name to make light of your comments it's nonsense. However when you use mine it's somehow genius?? lol oooooooooooooooooooooooooooook

OMG dude you're really gonna whine about that?

[kethnaab]

Tier 1 are guys who are "fully developed", prime-time QBs, and are on the fast track to the Hall of Fame. They aren't really getting any better, just wiser

Tier 2 are younger guys who are "almost there", but still have flaws in their games that need to be rectified. They have enough youth to demonstrate that they will obviously be hitting Tier 1 within the next few seasons. As they gain experience, their success and abilities will increase dramatically. Basically, they will comprise Tier 1 in about 3-4 years

Tier 3 are a mixture of guys who are also "almost there" but either haven't demonstrated consistency or have nagging flaws in their games that are tough to ignore. Tons of potential to jump up, but could possibly drop down as well

Tier 4 are guys that are either past their prime, very inconsistent, or are still very young with a good bit of potential that haven't had a full opportunity to demonstrate yet

Tier 1 - Brady, Brees, Manning, Warner, Favre
Tier 2 - Ben, Rivers, Rodgers
Tier 3 - Schaub, Romo, Eli, Cutler
Tier 4 - McNabb, Cassel, Ryan, Palmer

as expected, it got a response. I'll explain

Tier 1 - Brady, Manning, Favre require no explanation. Warner belongs there based on his absolutely ludicrious postseason performances as well as how good he's been when he's healthy.
Brees belongs, most certainly. Tied with Peyton for TDs and more yards than anyone else in the NFL over the last 4 seasons (and it's really not even close)
5000 yard season throwing to a 7th round TE, and 3 undrafted free agents, without a single one of them going over 950 yards receiving. 4 consecutive seasons > 4300 yards (unprecedented).

Some may disagree, but he belongs in the first tier undeniably.

I saw someone mention that Favre didn't belong because it's not 1995 or whatever, which is typical of the short-memoried folks around here. Problem with the argument is that Favre put up 4200 yards, 68.4%, 33 TDs, 7 picks, and a passer rating of 107. That compares favorably with Mr. MVP.

as for McNabb being a 2nd tier guy, I guess I just don't understand this. He had one season with > 25 TD passes (2004). His career completion % is under 60%, which is very strange considering the era. The only thing about him that is consistent is that he is inconsistent. spirit, I can appreciate you sticking up for your dude, but honestly, take a step back and think about it. Is he HONESTLY getting better?

Tier 2, I stated clearly that those were the guys who were next in line to make the jump to Tier 1, i.e. damn good now, and young enough to show a great deal of improvement. Do you HONESTLY see McNabb ever getting up to Tier 1? Does

I'm not trying to bust your chops, and if you like him, then god bless you for having faith, but you can have him. Good luck with what he brings you. Besides, in his 7 losses in the playoffs, he has thrown 11 interceptions. Sorry. Not tier 2. Not tier 3 (someone with potential). His peak came and gone when TO came and left. JRR, I simply do not see how he can be considered a HoF guy. I just don't. I'm colorblind, so that argument doesn't hold any weight with me.

You can't drop him in the 4th tier when he went to 5 championship games and 4 Division titles.

and look how he played in those games.

vs. NYG 2000 - 20 for 41, 48.8%, 181 yards, 1 TD, 1 pick, 59.1 rating
vs. Rams 2002 - 18 for 30, 171 yards, 1 TD, 1 pick
vs. Bucs 2003 - 26 for 49, 243 yards, 0 TDs, 1 pick
vs. Carolina 2004 - 10 for 22, 100 yards, 0 TDs, 3 picks
vs. Pats 2005 - 30 for 51, 357 yards, 3 TDs, 3 picks (lost by 3 in that game too, eh?)
vs. Cards 2008 - 28 for 47, 375, 3/1 (great game, he played outstanding in this game)
vs. Dallas 2009 - 19 for 37, 230 yards, 1/1 and he was DRASTICALLY outplayed by Tony Romo

9 TDs, 11 picks. His only true redeeming quality has been a reasonably decent ability to protect the ball, yet in EVERY game, he threw picks. Every single one of them.

luv ya spirit, nothing but respect for you, but like I said. You want McNabb? You can have him. Philadelphia has ALWAYS underperformed relative to their talent level, and I place the blame squarely on their incredibly talented, very humorous, and painfully inconsistent QB.

does he know what "overtime" is yet?

moving on....I included Cutler based purely on potential. Hate all you want, but he has an extreme amount of talent, and he's no more of a headcase than a guy like McNabb. He has Tier 1 talent with a Tier 7 brain and a tier 13 attitude. He has a lot of maturing to do, make no mistake. He could be the next Brett Favre OR the next Jeff George. I'd give even odds on either of those happening to be honest.

Schaub is in Tier 3 because he has had 1 very good season, but I haven't seen him perform under pressure very well and, well, he has shown potential with his single good season. I'd like to see a 2nd one. Rodgers has been lights-out both seasons as a starter and he was a monster in his first playoff game. Tier 2 for him. I like Schaub and think he could easily end up Tier 2 (there's a reason he's on just about every one of my dynasty football teams)

I fought back and forth with Romo, and included him in Tier 3 because he's put together 3 very solid - to - excellent season. He's played poorly in the postseason, but his failures are greatly exaggerated, as he has only thrown 2 picks in his 4 games. Yeah, far from spectacular, but McNabb has thrown more picks in a single playoff GAME than Romo has thrown in all 4 games of his career. I could easily accept an argument for Romo being a Tier 4 guy though.

[jkeithc82]

Schaub is in Tier 3 because he has had 1 very good season, but I haven't seen him perform under pressure very well and, well, he has shown potential with his single good season. I'd like to see a 2nd one. Rodgers has been lights-out both seasons as a starter and he was a monster in his first playoff game. Tier 2 for him. I like Schaub and think he could easily end up Tier 2 (there's a reason he's on just about every one of my dynasty football teams)

I agree with pretty much everything keth but I would like to say that Schaub's 2008 season was fairly decent for him playing in only 11 games.

[kethnaab]

The numbers: As it stands, McNabb has 4303 attempts (32nd all time) with 2534 completions(26th) for 29,320 yards (33rd) with 194 touchdowns (34th) and only 90 interceptions. So in the four most important statistical categories he's in the top 35.

and he plays in an era which is COMPLETELY dominated by QBs

So for right now he's already of Hall of Famers Terry Bradshaw (in yards, attempts, and completions), Len Dawson (in the same three categories), and Troy Aikman (touchdowns).

so he's ahead of a pair of 60s/70s guys who played 14 games/season in an era when nobody broke a passer rating of 95. also note, both Dawson and Bradshaw led the NFL in various categories on multiple occasions, something McNabb never did.

There are two other stats where he is light years ahead of darn near everybody: interception percentage (the percent of his passes that get picked off) and touchdown/interception ratio.

yep. He is darn good at protecting the ball during the regular season. When McNabb is on, he's very good.

Every Hall of Fame quarterback of recent vintage played several years with at least one receiver who was at best a Hall of Famer himself and at worst a consistent 1,000 yard receiver. McNabb has done this twice, in 2004 with Terrell Owens and in 2007 with Kevin Curtis. No other Eagle receiver has gotten over 1,000 yards the entire time McNabb has played there. Marino, Aikman, Moon, Young, Montana, and Elway all had at least on receiver go for 1,000 yards in over half of their seasons as starters.

the WRs need someone to get them the ball. McNabb's completion % during the REGULAR season is about the same as a guy like Bradshaw's completion % during the POSTSEASON, and he is playing in an era DOMINATED by QBs.

One of the reasons he has never had a 'great WR' is because he simply isnt' consistent as a QB. In 3 seasons with TO, the immortal Jeff Garcia AVERAGED 4,000 yards, 29 TDs, 10 interceptions.

In McNabb's main season with TO, he put up 3997 yards, 33 TDs, 9 interceptions. Strikingly similar.

He's bound to crack the top 20 in yards, attempts, completions, and touchdowns soon.

and he won't be there for long. Consider his contemporaries who are hot on his heels.

In my book, he's a Hall of Famer

nothing wrong with supporting your dude.

[kethnaab]

I agree with pretty much everything keth but I would like to say that Schaub's 2008 season was fairly decent for him playing in only 11 games.

agreed. it was definitely 'decent' (more than decent, actually)

a quick extrapolation of his 11 games over a 16-game season (i know, not legitimate, but that's all we can really go off of) would end up with a pretty solid season overall

365 for 553, 66.1%, 4425 yards, 22 TDs, 16 picks