Balancing pushing with pulling (Bench:Row strength ratio)

[PowerToWeight]

I think I need to increase the strength of my back from rowing exercises but I'd a "benchmark" (no pun intended) for the strength of a person's benchpress vs. their Pendlay/Bent over row.

I've checked exrx's strength guidelines, but they only have Dead, Squat, Press, Bench and Clean. This shows me that my bench is my strongest and my standing press weakest.

What's the "typical" ratio of a bench:bent-over row? Is it 1:1? I would expect the bench to be stronger...

Thanks.

[PowerToWeight]

OK, it seems 1:1 might be right from a quick Google, but still interested to hear from others their bench vs. their row.

Given my 170lb bench vs. my 116lb row, it's no wonder my shoulders would be pulled forwards.

Also, any thoughts on tall guys vs. short guys in terms of mechanics of movement? I saw a post that suggest tall guys would be better at pulling movements and short guys better at pushing. I'm a biochemist, not an engineer, so I'm not sure of the physics involved.

[Defiant1]

usually 6.

[-Lucifer]

Mine are equal. (no poast edit)

[Pull14]

Might be best to try and get the two equal, but all-in-all it doesn't matter. Just get stronger in all lifts.

[chazzy1864]

Since i don't have all the proper symbols,
I'll use % for bench weight
$ for rowing weight

a(B)=a(a) + $Xr(B/A) + %X[%Xr(B/A)] + 2%X(v(B/A)+a(B/A)

X stands for cross product
r is a vector and (B/A) means that the vector at point B is relative to A.


Good luck.

[ezra76]

I can row a little more than I can bench.

[PowerToWeight]

Thanks for the serious replies.

What's with the two sarcastic ones? I see n00bs get treated like this all the time on BB (i.e. asking a question and getting BS replies). I can understand if I had asked "OMG guyz, what's the best thing to build my bicepz peakz?!" but I feel my question was relevant and well-formed.

Needless to say, a search for "push pull" and similar terms yields nothing of value for this particular question.

[woodsd13]

I don't believe ur chest should be stronger, the opposite. Your back should be. For me my 1 rep max for bench is 315 and I can do that for reps of 8 with bent over rows.

[amtharin]

Back is a bigger muscle and should be stronger.

With that said, my bench is more than my row.

[__r]

Depends on the back angle. If your back is almost horizontal like in a pendlay row you are able to row less weight, as opposed to the almost vertical rows you typically see in the gym.

That being said, it doesn't matter much if your program is well balanced, because your back strength will sooner or later be in a good relation to your chest strength.

[Muckle_Ewe]

I only started barbell benching and barbell rowing last month after only doing 5 day a week dumbbell splits for 2 years...

Saying that...
Yesterday I rowed 93kg (205lbs) for 6, and 88kg (194lbs) for 10. Then injured my back doing barbell curls lol...

My bench suuuucks but I think that's mostly down to lack of time benching and also a shoulder injury which brought it down a lot...
Bench:Row ratio is roughly 1:1.4

However I can Incline dumbbell press more than I can bench so using that my ratio is...
Incline DB:BB Row => 1:1.25

...

[mobikwa]

Depends on the back angle. If your back is almost horizontal like in a pendlay row you are able to row less weight, as opposed to the almost vertical rows you typically see in the gym.

That being said, it doesn't matter much if your program is well balanced, because your back strength will sooner or later be in a good relation to your chest strength.

You can also "cheat" a little during rows, throwing your body up a bit, while you cannot do this on the bench.

My dumbbell bench press is 80 lbs x 6 while my dumbbell row (no cheating) is 75 lbs x 7. So pretty much 1:1

[chazzy1864]

Thanks for the serious replies.

What's with the two sarcastic ones? I see n00bs get treated like this all the time on BB (i.e. asking a question and getting BS replies). I can understand if I had asked "OMG guyz, what's the best thing to build my bicepz peakz?!" but I feel my question was relevant and well-formed.

Needless to say, a search for "push pull" and similar terms yields nothing of value for this particular question.

There were two sarcastic posts? Did you not even try to solve the equation?!? My f*cking god! I take the time to write out the formula for you, and you can't even take the time to f*cking use it, on top of that, you accuse me of being a smart ass and somehow I'm the dick!!

[Muckle_Ewe]

You can also "cheat" a little during rows, throwing your body up a bit, while you cannot do this on the bench.

My dumbbell bench press is 80 lbs x 6 while my dumbbell row (no cheating) is 75 lbs x 7. So pretty much 1:1

True but it you can easy cheat on bench by doing quarter/half reps.
You could argue row form with regard to how parallel the body is to the ground. I bend over to about 30-45 degrees from the ground but many would say go parallel so... ?

My Incline DB press (probably more than flat DB) is 36.5kg (80.5lbs lol) for 8 and I can dumbbell row 51.5kg (113.5lbs) for 8. I was doing DB rows for about 6 months before I got my first bench so maybe that's why my pull >> push. Or maybe cos I'm tall I dunno...

[stanli]

I believe the Rippetoe's thread on this forum specified that most people can lift the most weight in this progression: deadlift > squat > bench > power cleans or rows > press.

I'd give you my figures and whatnot but I'm pretty new so they won't mean much.

[chazzy1864]

True but it you can easy cheat on bench by doing quarter/half reps.
You could argue row form with regard to how parallel the body is to the ground. I bend over to about 30-45 degrees from the ground but many would say go parallel so... ?

But with row, you can argue about how high youa ctually pull it as well.

[Dominik]

I think I need to increase the strength of my back from rowing exercises but I'd a "benchmark" (no pun intended) for the strength of a person's benchpress vs. their Pendlay/Bent over row.

I've checked exrx's strength guidelines, but they only have Dead, Squat, Press, Bench and Clean. This shows me that my bench is my strongest and my standing press weakest.

What's the "typical" ratio of a bench:bent-over row? Is it 1:1? I would expect the bench to be stronger...

Thanks.

You would need to keep both exercises strict with full ROM to have any chance of effectively measuring this.

There's no point doing half-assed lockouts on bench or BB rows standing almost upright with a lot of bar humping and thinking the numbers have some relevance to each other.

Since bench is performed with the back resting against a bench, it would make sense to measure your rowing strength with some kind of chest support (and keep your chest against the bench on all reps).

[bigla2004]

You would need to keep both exercises strict with full ROM to have any chance of effectively measuring this.

There's no point doing half-assed lockouts on bench or BB rows standing almost upright with a lot of bar humping and thinking the numbers have some relevance to each other.

Since bench is performed with the back resting against a bench, it would make sense to measure your rowing strength with some kind of chest support (and keep your chest against the bench on all reps).

Yup, also I would say that overall volume of pressing vs pulling exercises in both the horizontal and vertical planes are what should be monitored more so than trying to keep the strength equal. I will say though that if your bb row is far behind your bench it's probably holding your bench back.

[PowerToWeight]

Since bench is performed with the back resting against a bench, it would make sense to measure your rowing strength with some kind of chest support (and keep your chest against the bench on all reps).

Good point. I wish my gym was better equipped.

I also assume that if my bench is stronger that, given equal work on bench and row, the row would catch up since my bench is closer to the point of "diminishing returns".

Thanks again to those posting helpful info, as well as those attempting humor.

[MWheatley]

Since i don't have all the proper symbols,
I'll use % for bench weight
$ for rowing weight

a(B)=a(a) + $Xr(B/A) + %X[%Xr(B/A)] + 2%X(v(B/A)+a(B/A)

X stands for cross product
r is a vector and (B/A) means that the vector at point B is relative to A.


Good luck.

I came up wit 350

[tropo]

But with row, you can argue about how high youa ctually pull it as well.

If you use a bench row and keep the chin glued to the bench it can be determined how strong the back really is compared to the chest provided the bench press is also performed performed strictly. I pause at the bottom will solve the cheating issue and determine the actual strength.

The guys who claim to row 300 lbs + will be a little surprised (or upset) how much weight they'll have to drop to perform a strict bench row.

[jacpot]

Back is a bigger muscle and should be stronger.

With that said, my bench is more than my row.

LOL me too

[NZninja101]

OK, it seems 1:1 might be right from a quick Google, but still interested to hear from others their bench vs. their row.

Given my 170lb bench vs. my 116lb row, it's no wonder my shoulders would be pulled forwards.

Also, any thoughts on tall guys vs. short guys in terms of mechanics of movement? I saw a post that suggest tall guys would be better at pulling movements and short guys better at pushing. I'm a biochemist, not an engineer, so I'm not sure of the physics involved.

OP, I think when you saw the post that suggested tall guys would be better at pulling movements, it was specifically referring to the deadlift, where having longer arms would shorten the range of motion of the movement, (it would do the opposite for rowing movements).


People say that the row should be stronger than the bench because the upper back back muscles are bigger than the chest, but I see this as flawed logic. When someone starts training, they are probably able to do one pull up, and if thy can't then it wouldn't take very long at all for them to progress to one pull up. Its not quite like that with the bench, most people would be unable to bench their bodyweight as a new trainer, and IMO it would take longer for them to progress to benching their bodyweight than it would for them to progress to doing a pull up with their bodyweight. Now what this has to do with the row is that while the bench press may be the exercise that puts the chest in its strongest position, (some would say decline does this but if you're arching your back it won't make much difference), the row isn't the exercise that puts the upper back in its strongest position, (I'll leave deadlift out of this because it involves many more muscles than simply the upper back), the chin up/pull up is. So to say that x back exercise should be stronger than x chest exercise doesn't really hold validity in regard to bench vs row as it would with bench vs pull up.



Most people seem to bench more than they row. Individual body mechanics play a part in influencing this, for example if you have a long spine, then this holds little advantage for a row, but it helps the bench in that it enables greater bridging and thus allows for a shorter ROM, (which is also the reason why some of the best benchers in the world are tall), but it generally just relates to more muscles being used in the bench press, (strongest movement for the chest), than in the row, (not the strongest movement for the upper back; unlike vertical pulling movements), though ROM is also a factor.

usually 6.

6.1 but I'll let it slide.

[Rasputin4]

I read an article once that stated the ratio should be 1:1 on DB bench vs DB row and 1:1 on BB bench vs. pullup. This sounds reasonable to me, as rows just don't rely on that many stabilizers and BB bench takes stablizers much out of the equation.

[chazzy1864]

OMG, this thread made me realize how much better of a poster I was before I got banned the fist time. Any newbie who feels I'm a dick should talk to those during the 2009 to early 2010 era and then get back to me.

[Tyciol]

I don't think it necessary has to be a standing bent-over row to qualify. A machine row would be just as good.

We should keep in mind that things like Pendlay rows have more complex demands (like hip/back extensor flexibility/strength, balance) than the bench press does.

The bench press has the core supported so that you don't have to stabilize very much. Ignoring the whole barbell/freeweight thing for a second, a machine row is actually a lot closer to being the bench's opposite since most of the machines support the lower back somewhat by having a chest pad, plus being upright you don't have to support your own weight.

"Balance" or "stabilizers" aren't something we need to worry about in terms of the actual shoulder girdle for pulling movements. While things like deadlifts and bent-over rows do require balance and stability, that's in the legs and lower back, not the actual arms/shoulders.

Halving your bench and doing dumbbell rows with half or more of the amount would be another option.

[Tommy W.]

To more accurately compare rowing to benching you should have the low back supported when rowing otherwise the low back comes into play too much as a weak link for a proper comparison of strength.


You should be doing almost double the work on your back as your chest. More pull and less push for most people I see training.

[h3adbang3r14]

mines a lil less than 1:1 bench being better by about 25 lbs

[LifeGuru]

mines 1:0.5
thoughts in a PM plz