Need Help? Ask Here. Part II (Nutrition, Strength, Speed, Agility, Recruiting, etc.)

[GodsAngina]

First off bro, it's bugging me you keep calling it a deadlift, and a high elbow rack position.

I believe it's a little more complicated than just holding a bar, jumping, and then boom. There is a power clean. The clean is a very complex movement, regardless of how mildly you try to describe it. It takes weeks to learn the movement, and I personally don't see why you should spend the time when you can do something you do typically every day... Sit down. The typical training protocol for teaching the clean is a 10-12 step process. Not 2 or 3 as you described?

Why wouldn't you know if you've become more explosive in something as the squat with an equal load? They would both be dynamic movements, under an equal load. I also don't understand how it's more "explosive" if that's your main point. It's still just moving a sub-maximal weight, at a very short acceleration period.

The typical training process for learning to powerclean is
1)Rack position

2)Jumping position, bar a few inches above knee, elbows straight

3)Do a few hang cleans from that position to connect jumping position to rack position

4)deadlift the bar at any speed you want to jumping position, jump, rack. As he gets better over the next few weeks he can deadlift the bar to the jumping position faster.

And thats the Powerclean.

Not being snide here (really) but if your teaching process takes 10-12 steps that probably has something to do with your difficulty in teaching the lift. The powerclean is not a competitive lift, as long as you do it the same way every time and the weight you are lifting gets heavier then you are getting more powerful.


Now, your second, and most important question, how come I know my lifting speed stays constant when powercleaning but not when squatting with light loads?

When you powerclean, since your starting position and your racking position remain the same, the only way you can get the bar there is by moving it fast enough to get there. Hence you know speed remains a constant from one 1rm to another, heavier personal best.

On the other hand when you're doing dynamic effort work with your squat, when you increase the weight you can't know if you've gotten more powerful and are thus setting a personal best, or if you're just lifting a slightly heavier weight slightly slower, because as there's no racking position or racking position equivalent speed is no longer a constant. The rack position in the powerclean means you know that if you powerclean 150lbs 1 day, and then a week later you powerclean 160lbs you know you are now definitely moving a heavier weight just as fast as you were previously only able to a move a lighter weight, thus you know you are more powerful.

Again, with dynamic effort squats as there is no rack position or rack position equivalent speed doesn't remain a constant and increases in power are impossible to quantify.

[Fullback7]

The typical training process for learning to powerclean is
1)Rack position

2)Jumping position, bar a few inches above knee, elbows straight

3)Do a few hang cleans from that position to connect jumping position to rack position

4)deadlift the bar at any speed you want to jumping position, jump, rack. As he gets better over the next few weeks he can deadlift the bar to the jumping position faster.

And thats the Powerclean.

Not being snide here (really) but if your teaching process takes 10-12 steps that probably has something to do with your difficulty in teaching the lift. The powerclean is not a competitive lift, as long as you do it the same way every time and the weight you are lifting gets heavier then you are getting more powerful.


Now, your second, and most important question, how come I know my lifting speed stays constant when powercleaning but not when squatting with light loads?

When you powerclean, since your starting position and your racking position remain the same, the only way you can get the bar there is by moving it fast enough to get there. Hence you know speed remains a constant from one 1rm to another, heavier personal best.

On the other hand when you're doing dynamic effort work with your squat, when you increase the weight you can't know if you've gotten more powerful and are thus setting a personal best, or if you're just lifting a slightly heavier weight slightly slower, because as there's no racking position or racking position equivalent speed is no longer a constant. The rack position in the powerclean means you know that if you powerclean 150lbs 1 day, and then a week later you powerclean 160lbs you know you are now definitely moving a heavier weight just as fast as you were previously only able to a move a lighter weight, thus you know you are more powerful.



Again, with dynamic effort squats as there is no rack position or rack position equivalent speed doesn't remain a constant and increases in power are impossible to quantify.

Positioning, grip, lift, pull, extension... I can keep going. I quoted Allen Hendrick, by the way. Olympic lifter, and Head SC coach at AF.

as long as you do it the same way every time

That kind of contradicts what you've been saying this whole time.

What? Sorry, but that statement made no sense. You can become faster in the box squat as well. You also meant you're speed doesn't stay constant, it wouldn't stay at a constant rate, neither would the total output.

I would assume the plainly obvious assessment would be that you're moving the bar at a faster rate. I mean sure for a more precise determination you would use a tendo, but you're still able to reflect speed manually.

It puzzles me a little bit that you're saying personal best as if it was a 1RM. I'm not talking about maximal lifts, which neither are in the same comparison. Also why would one increase weight to such a degree, if they haven't improved "speed?" That would basically defy the entire principle.

Another thing that bothers me is that you're confusing power as one. Power is both a function of velocity, and force. Power cleans is more ideal for velocity, not force. However, with different loads box squats obviously are more ideal for force, but can also cover the velocity aspect on a given load. The clean is not a maximal lift, so let's say you have an athlete lagging in maximal strength, a clean obviously won't improve his total power output. However, you can kill two birds with one stone here by varying the loads on the bar with the box squat by focusing in on both maximal strength, and speed.

What you're basically focusing in here is simply velocity, and not force. I think that's the confusion you are starting to come under.

If you want to talk about a lift not being as genuine because the results aren't as clearly stated (seeing as rate of movement seems obsolete to you), then what would you say about Verkhoshansky's idea's of the best explosive exercises being the shock method?

Also another thing that puzzles me, and as I've mentioned that looking back on my notes. I can't find a single certified coach that disagrees with power cleans being a complex, and difficult lift to learn. Like I said you may have your opinion, but the majority rules in this question.

That last statement makes no sense what so ever. So I'll take your last little part of being able to quantify the "power" of the box squat. Have you ever stretched before, or used a stretching routine on a consistent basis? If so, I'm sure you increased your flexibility. How did you know your flexibility increased? Did you reach down and notice you could move further? How about driving in a car? Can you tell the difference between 25 MPH, and 55 MPH? If so, and I hope you can, then why can't you tell if you're increasing speed? If I throw a ball further than the one I threw prior I can feel it, and know how much faster it is before the ball is a few inches from my hand. Same goes for sprinting without a timer. You can obviously tell when you've run a faster sprint than the ones prior, and that's about a .05-.1 difference. So why wouldn't you be able to tell the difference between to varying speeds?

[GodsAngina]

Why would you quote an olympic coach? You aren't using cleans as a lift in and of itself, so you don't need to tinker with it like real competitive lifter would to make the lift more efficient.

An analogy would be the bench press, when I say keep everything the same once you're doing it correctly I mean just keep usin the same form. SO with the bench this would mean not constantly tinkering with your grip width, the amount of arch etc, get it? If everything stays the same but the weight goes up then you are more powerful. With squats there's no way of ensuring the speed stays the same, with powercleans there's the rack.


Powercleans work velocity and force, which is something you seem to be very confused about. Power is understood as being less force, more velocity. In the case of the powerclean you are particularly wrong because velocity stays constant from one, let's say 3 rep max, to the next, only the weight lifted, and therefore force production of the athlete at that velocity, increases.

Majority never ever rules. What makes sense rules. End of story. For that matter I'm not even sure the majority does agree with you but that is irrelevant so I;m not going to waste my time arguing this point.

Clean and jerk, endlessly complex. Powercleans, very very simple.

SO, to sum up, powercleans keep speed constant and increase force, thus training you to lift heavier weights at a speed high enough to allow you to rack. Squats on the other leave you unable to tell if you are lifting 260lbs as fast as you lifted 250lbs last week, or if you're moving it slightly slower and thus have not improved your power at all.

[Fullback7]

Why would you quote an olympic coach? You aren't using cleans as a lift in and of itself, so you don't need to tinker with it like real competitive lifter would to make the lift more efficient.

An analogy would be the bench press, when I say keep everything the same once you're doing it correctly I mean just keep usin the same form. SO with the bench this would mean not constantly tinkering with your grip width, the amount of arch etc, get it? If everything stays the same but the weight goes up then you are more powerful. With squats there's no way of ensuring the speed stays the same, with powercleans there's the rack.


Powercleans work velocity and force, which is something you seem to be very confused about. Power is understood as being less force, more velocity. In the case of the powerclean you are particularly wrong because velocity stays constant from one, let's say 3 rep max, to the next, only the weight lifted, and therefore force production of the athlete at that velocity, increases.

Majority never ever rules. What makes sense rules. End of story. For that matter I'm not even sure the majority does agree with you but that is irrelevant so I;m not going to waste my time arguing this point.

Clean and jerk, endlessly complex. Powercleans, very very simple.

SO, to sum up, powercleans keep speed constant and increase force, thus training you to lift heavier weights at a speed high enough to allow you to rack. Squats on the other leave you unable to tell if you are lifting 260lbs as fast as you lifted 250lbs last week, or if you're moving it slightly slower and thus have not improved your power at all.

Um, bro. Everything in that post is wrong, and is scientifically (factually) wrong. Your science is way off bro, no offense. This is why I'm not going to reply to it, because I don't think you have an understanding of basic physics for one. I'm not trying to be ignorant or anything, but you honestly don't know what you're talking about. You also ignore points made, with no argument what so ever given. I'm all for having a debate, but you have a lot of basic terms wrong in sequences, and general science. I've had to correct, and ignore many of these things because you just don't get it yet. I'm not trying to put you down, but it's a little frustrating having to ignore basic mistakes, re-explain the same basic terms, and trying to decipher a lot of your statements that make no sense at all.

Like I said above these reply's should only be for members who have an educated background, and/or in the field. Because, it gets clogged up with a lot of false statements, and uneducated theories by a Misc. troll.

I'll talk to you more about this through PM, and help you with some more of the stuff, but I'm not replying to these anymore, and If you don't mind I ask if you switch any reply to PM. Thanks. have fun with the no life Misc.

[GodsAngina]

Um, bro. Everything in that post is wrong, and is scientifically (factually) wrong. Your science is way off bro, no offense. This is why I'm not going to reply to it, because I don't think you have an understanding of basic physics for one. I'm not trying to be ignorant or anything, but you honestly don't know what you're talking about. You also ignore points made, with no argument what so ever given. I'm all for having a debate, but you have a lot of basic terms wrong in sequences, and general science. I've had to correct, and ignore many of these things because you just don't get it yet. I'm not trying to put you down, but it's a little frustrating having to ignore basic mistakes, re-explain the same basic terms, and trying to decipher a lot of your statements that make no sense at all.

Like I said above these reply's should only be for members who have an educated background, and/or in the field. Because, it gets clogged up with a lot of false statements, and uneducated theories by a Misc. troll.

I'll talk to you more about this through PM, and help you with some more of the stuff, but I'm not replying to these anymore, and If you don't mind I ask if you switch any reply to PM. Thanks. have fun with the no life Misc.

I didn't use any esoteric terms whatsoever. If I embarrassed you by showing you how you're wrong then I'm sorry you feel that way, but at your age and in your profession you really should just show you're right or, as this case demands, admit you're wrong. Running away when you're losing an argument reflects very badly on you.

Cliffnotes on why fullback is wrong for anyone who can't be bothered to read the posts:

1)Powercleans have the same jumping position and rack position every time, thus ensuring when you move up to a new, heavier personal best, that velocity remains the same as it has always done and you have therefore improved your capacity to develop force at that velocity, ie you are more powerful.

2)Box squats have no rack position, thus velocity does not remain a constant, therefore when you lift a heavier weight you can't know if you are more powerful. For example if on your dynamic effort day you squat 180lbs at 2pmh, and next week you think you have set a new personal best by squatting 190lbs on your dynamic effort day at what you think is the same speed, you might well be squatting 190lbs at 1.9mph, thus your power remains the same for all you know. It isn't possible to quantify power with squats etc with enough precision to make them a viable outright replacement for powercleans or powersnatches.

[TheHitStick]

I didn't use any esoteric terms whatsoever. If I embarrassed you by showing you how you're wrong then I'm sorry you feel that way, but at your age and in your profession you really should just show you're right or, as this case demands, admit you're wrong. Running away when you're losing an argument reflects very badly on you.

Cliffnotes on why fullback is wrong for anyone who can't be bothered to read the posts:

1)Powercleans have the same jumping position and rack position every time, thus ensuring when you move up to a new, heavier personal best, that velocity remains the same as it has always done and you have therefore improved your capacity to develop force at that velocity, ie you are more powerful.

2)Box squats have no rack position, thus velocity does not remain a constant, therefore when you lift a heavier weight you can't know if you are more powerful. For example if on your dynamic effort day you squat 180lbs at 2pmh, and next week you think you have set a new personal best by squatting 190lbs on your dynamic effort day at what you think is the same speed, you might well be squatting 190lbs at 1.9mph, thus your power remains the same for all you know. It isn impossible to quantify power with squats etc with enough precision to make them a viable replacement for powercleans or powersnatches.

Fullback7 knows more than you.This is how his last thread got messed up.

People like you, who think they know everything come in here and start trying to "prove him wrong."

This thread is meant for people to ask FullBack7 questions. If you want a thread like this since you think you know so much, go ahead and start one. It won't get the popularity like this one (there's a reason for that) but you might get a few questions.

If you aren't here to ask for help, then just don't post here. It's not that difficult.

I don't understand how people that think they know everything can't understand the simple concept of this thread.

[GodsAngina]

Fullback7 knows more than you.This is how his last thread got messed up.

People like you, who think they know everything come in here and start trying to "prove him wrong."

This thread is meant for people to ask FullBack7 questions. If you want a thread like this since you think you know so much, go ahead and start one. It won't get the popularity like this one (there's a reason for that) but you might get a few questions.

If you aren't here to ask for help, then just don't post here. It's not that difficult. It's like they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I don't understand how people that think they know everything can't understand the simple concept of this thread.

He actually doesn't. He is a very talented athlete but he seems to be lacking in critical thinking skills. He'll probably just quote this and call me a troll because that seems to be his style, but whatever.

Squats don't have a rack position equivalent, therefore speed doesn't remain a constant from one weight to the next, making power impossible to quantify. With powercleans speed remains a constant from one weight to the next, empowering you with the knowledge that you have definitely gotten more powerful.

[TheHitStick]

He actually doesn't. He is a very talented athlete but he seems to be lacking in critical thinking skills.

What have you done in your life to back up your knowledge? Oh wait, I know...

Drink, fukk, lift.

Yeah, that's alot to backup your thoughts on lifting.

Most people here know FullBack's story and I've seen him argue many times before. I'm not on his nuts, but he knows what he's talking about. Give credit when credit is due.

People like you that come into threads like this trying to take them over annoy me. It shows that you're immature and an attention whore. You remind me of my ex-girlfriend.

If you don't agree with what he's saying, just leave. You're 39 years old and you have to argue online to look cool. Nobody cares and quite frankly, I doubt anybody is going to take your advice over his. So stop the flaming, stop the e-bragging and just leave.

[Fullback7]

Just drop this. The guy is a troll, and a misc. troll at that. I've offered to talk to him about this in PM, but he just wants attention. I'm all for having a debate, but it's an obvious joke to him. Just leave it alone, and if he continues with this childish trolling just report him. That's the end of it.

[GodsAngina]

Why are you so mad hitstick? I think my sig is funny, that's why it's there. Does having a lowbrow sense of humor negate my points? I don't think I'd be considered a troll in the misc so much as a regular poster to be honest, but I was originally attracted to this site by these sections.

Something you are going to have to learn as a lifter is that just because someone is much bigger and stronger than you, does not necessarily mean they know more about training than you, usually it's just that they're more talented than you. If you disagree just go buy some muscle magazine's.

Anway, cliffs once more because I don't really want to talk with you or have you delineate the conversation.


Cliffnotes on why fullback is wrong for anyone who can't be bothered to read the posts:

1)Powercleans have the same jumping position and rack position every time, thus ensuring when you move up to a new, heavier personal best, that velocity remains the same as it has always done and you have therefore improved your capacity to develop force at that velocity, ie you are more powerful.

2)Box squats have no rack position, thus velocity does not remain a constant, therefore when you lift a heavier weight you can't know if you are more powerful. For example if on your dynamic effort day you squat 180lbs at 2pmh, and next week you think you have set a new personal best by squatting 190lbs on your dynamic effort day at what you think is the same speed, you might well be squatting 190lbs at 1.9mph, thus your power remains the same for all you know. It isn't possible to quantify power with squats etc with enough precision to make them a viable outright replacement for powercleans or powersnatches.

[Fullback7]

No, he was 5 foot 5 230 lbs at his biggest in like 6 or 7th grade.Also, should I put him on upper/lower split so...
-monday upper
-tuesday lower
-wed. off
-thurs. upper
-friday lower
and weekends off?

Also, I have him doing prowler after every leg workout. Is this good? We do pull the prowler for 20 yards by the low handles then push it back with the raised handles than 1 min break and repeat 5-6 times. Also, what is the "basic reaction drill?"

That routine schedule is fine, but you may want to have performing basic compound lifts such as squats, press, and deadlifts only at 3-4x8. Try to watch his technique, and work on any problems you see. Teach technique first, and then move into heavier loads and more complex lifts. You just have to move his training with his development, and can't rush him too quickly.

I would have him performing sprints and basic lateral movements first, because it sounds like the kid could barely run as it is. I would work on basic sprinting for a few weeks, until you have gotten his general running better. After this, then you may want to incorporate some prowler's. Keep the sprinting around the 20-25 yard mark for 6-10 sprints. If his times begin to significantly subside, or his technique begins to worsens than you know he's had enough. This is why I gave the general outline of 6-10 sprints.

As for basic reaction drills; I'm talking about the drills taught by pee wee coaches. You know the player stands five yards back from the coach, and the coach points him in a given direction to move. Working with him, on basic things such as mirror drills, will also be light enough for him.

I would also have him work on plyo's, nothing strenuous but simple 3 quarter squat jumps with a large focus on proper landing.

Another thing is the dynamic warm-up, can also be a great tool in teaching him proper mechanics. Things such as high knees, skips, ladder drills, etc. will benefit him as a warm-up, and as a teaching tool. So don't slack behind on watching his mechanics during this phase of training also.

Also, if you don't have this kid on a static stretching routine post workout, than you really need to start. I would first test his flexibility using the old box test method to get a simple indicator. I posted a stretching routine on the second page, so have him begin that. Make sure you watch him, becuase I know in HS I was extremely lazy after a workout, and a stretching routine was something I could care less about..As do most athletes. This portion alone will most likely be the most important aspect of his training, because my money is on him not even being able to touch his toes from a sitting position. You will see dramatic increases just from an improvement in flexibility over a 3-4 week period. You must make sure to do this as many times as you can, because I doubt the kid will go home and stretch if he is anything like most kids around the nation.

[TheHitStick]

Why are you so mad hitstick? I think my sig is funny, that's why it's there. Does having a lowbrow sense of humor negate my points? I don't think I'd be considered a troll in the misc so much as a regular poster to be honest, but I was originally attracted to this site by these sections.

Something you are going to have to learn as a lifter is that just because someone is much bigger and stronger than you, does not necessarily mean they know more about training than you, usually it's just that they're more talented than you. If you disagree just go buy some muscle magazine's.

Anway, cliffs once more because I don't really want to talk with you or have you delineate the conversation.


Cliffnotes on why fullback is wrong for anyone who can't be bothered to read the posts:

1)Powercleans have the same jumping position and rack position every time, thus ensuring when you move up to a new, heavier personal best, that velocity remains the same as it has always done and you have therefore improved your capacity to develop force at that velocity, ie you are more powerful.

2)Box squats have no rack position, thus velocity does not remain a constant, therefore when you lift a heavier weight you can't know if you are more powerful. For example if on your dynamic effort day you squat 180lbs at 2pmh, and next week you think you have set a new personal best by squatting 190lbs on your dynamic effort day at what you think is the same speed, you might well be squatting 190lbs at 1.9mph, thus your power remains the same for all you know. It isn't possible to quantify power with squats etc with enough precision to make them a viable outright replacement for powercleans or powersnatches.

lol power cleans...

You think I don't know that? But you haven't seen Fullback in the years and you haven't seen his journey like I have. If you read his OP, you would understand. He defiantly knows what he's talking about. Why? Because I've taken his suggestions and they've worked before. Same as others. He has success to back him up. You don't.

Don't tell me what to do or don't do. I've found what's working for me. Stop acting like you're right in everything when you're not.

So you're saying someone should only power clean to raise their explosiveness and squats don't do anything. Nice...

Hop off the power clean bandwagon and just leave. You obviously still DON'T understand the point of this thread.

I will repeat myself and hopefully you might understand this time. The point of this thread is to ask Fullback7 questions.

I hope you understand that. If you disagree with him, PM him about it. Don't come in here and debate with him because that's not the point of this thread.

My gosh there are too much idiots who don't have basic reading comprehension on these forums. I'll add you to the list.

[GodsAngina]

lol power cleans...

You think I don't know that? But you haven't seen Fullback in the years and you haven't seen his journey like I have. If you read his OP, you would understand. He defiantly knows what he's talking about. Why? Because I've taken his suggestions and they've worked before. Same as others. He has success to back him up. You don't.

Don't tell me what to do or don't do. I've found what's working for me. Stop acting like you're right in everything when you're not.

So you're saying someone should only power clean to raise their explosiveness and squats don't do anything. Nice...

Hop off the power clean bandwagon and just leave. You obviously still DON'T understand the point of this thread.

I will repeat myself and hopefully you might understand this time. The point of this thread is to ask Fullback7 questions.

I hope you understand that. If you disagree with him, PM him about it. Don't come in here and debate with him because that's not the point of this thread.

My gosh there are too much idiots who don't have basic reading comprehension on these forums. I'll add you to the list.

Please don't reply to me again, this discussion doesn't concern you. One more time

1)Powercleans have the same jumping position and rack position every time, thus ensuring when you move up to a new, heavier personal best, that velocity remains the same as it has always done and you have therefore improved your capacity to develop force at that velocity, ie you are more powerful.

2)Box squats have no rack position, thus velocity does not remain a constant, therefore when you lift a heavier weight you can't know if you are more powerful. For example if on your dynamic effort day you squat 180lbs at 2pmh, and next week you think you have set a new personal best by squatting 190lbs on your dynamic effort day at what you think is the same speed, you might well be squatting 190lbs at 1.9mph, thus your power remains the same for all you know. It isn't possible to quantify power with squats etc with enough precision to make them a viable outright replacement for powercleans or powersnatches.

[TheHitStick]

Please don't reply to me again, this discussion doesn't concern you. One more time

i lol'd

you mad im right?

reported

[GodsAngina]

i lol'd

you mad im right?

reported

for what exactly?

[GodsAngina]

Chill out a little bit. Seriously think you just want some troll attention here.

On a true serious note either way. All of your formulas, and theories defy laws of physics here. You simply don't have the basic understanding of these simple things. It's impossible to debate with you, because you have no factual theories, and you're simply speaking from opinion, and not fact on everything. You don't understand the simple output of power, you don't understand how to test that power, and you are off on many basic terms of the powerclean. I highly suggest you crack open a book, or either go out in the real world to get "real world" attention that you seem to be seeking. I highly doubt you are serious about any of this, and if you are I feel really sorry for who ever taught you physics.

But, I'll humor you here....

1.) You contradicted yourself in your prior statement, by saying it isn't constant and then saying it is constant. Second, you aren't improving force ideally on a sub-maximal weight, you are improving velocity. A maximal weight such as bench press, squat, etc. at maximal is ideal for force. What you're saying makes no sense. An improvement in velocity, does not equate to an improvement in force production which equals a mean power output. That simply will defy the laws of physics. A law is not something you can argue. It's a law for a reason, and in a hundred or so years no one has proved it to be wrong. I doubt someone who doesn't even have the basic understanding of the equations, will prove it wrong.

2.) That again makes no sense, because it's a contradiction for one, and honestly is one of the most illogical things I have ever read in a debate. If you want studies showing how illogical your statement is I would be happy to post it up, but I don't know if you can even read or understand them... or will even accept anything other than your word as factual.

Physics?

I'm not talking about phsyics and I'm not using those words as a mathametician would use them, I'm using them with the meaning they have for non specialist laypeople. Furthermore, I didn't use any formalae or theories in making any of my points whatsoever, so I really don't know what you're talking about in that regard. I can only suggest you read my post again a bit more carefully before you type an essay length response to it.

I didn't say keep everything, including the weight lifted, the same, I said keep your form the same so it doesn't effect how much weght you lift and so that doesn't distort your appraisal of your progress. If your form stays the same and the amount of weight you can lift increases then you have definitely gotten more powerful.


One last god damn time:

If the jumping position remains constant and the rack position remains constant, that means that the speed at which the bar moves to perform a 1rm must remain constant for the bar to rack. Ok?

The bar must move a minimum of 'X' miles per hour from the jumping position to get to the rack position then. Ok?

By finding your 1 rep max, or your 3 rep max or whatever, you find the maximum weight you can lift while still keeping your speed at 'X' mph. Ok?

Do you understand this?

By setting a new 1 rep max personal best, or a new 3 rep max personal best you have demonstrated that you are now able to lift a heavier weight at 'X'mph. Alright? I honestly don't think this is that difficult a point to understand to be honest.

This is what the powerclean trains you to do, it makes you stronger at moving progressively heavy weights *quickly*, 'X'mph is quick for everyone. This is why powercleans are valuable and sports specific, eg for a wrestler who needs to be able to lift his 200lb opponent *quickly*.

I'm not saying that if you lift 100lbs at 'X'mph one week, then 110lbs at 'X'mph the next week for a pb, that means you are now necessarily going able to move 100lbs at a speed >'X'mph, that is not what the powerclean trains you to do. It makes you stronger at lifting something at 'X'mph. It develops strength within that speed range.


Box squats performed at dynamic effort loads on the other hand have no equivelant of a rack position, thus speed does not remain constant, therefore you cannot measure improvement in either speed the ability to lift heavy stuff at high speeds accurately. If you lift 150lbs for 5 one week, and 160lbs for 5 the next, as speed doesn't remain constant you can't measure progress. You can't see if you are moving the weight as fast as you moved it 150lbs, so you can't see if you are stronger at squatting heavy stuff fast or not.

Thes inability to measure speed means that squats etc are unsuitable as an outright replacement for powercleans; you simply can't tell if you're getting better at them.

[Fullback7]

Physics?

I'm not talking about phsyics and I'm not using those words as a mathametician would use them, I'm using them with the meaning they have for non specialist laypeople. Furthermore, I didn't use any formalae or theories in making any of my points whatsoever, so I really don't know what you're talking about in that regard. I can only suggest you read my post again a bit more carefully before you type an essay length response to it.

I didn't say keep everything, including the weight lifted, the same, I said keep your form the same so it doesn't effect how much weght you lift and so that doesn't distort your appraisal of your progress. If your form stays the same and the amount of weight you can lift increases then you have definitely gotten more powerful.


One last god damn time:

If the jumping position remains constant and the rack position remains constant, that means that the speed at which the bar moves to perform a 1rm must remain constant for the bar to rack. Ok?

The bar must move a minimum of 'X' miles per hour from the jumping position to get to the rack position then. Ok?

By finding your 1 rep max, or your 3 rep max or whatever, you find the maximum weight you can lift while still keeping your speed at 'X' mph. Ok?

Do you understand this?

By setting a new 1 rep max personal best, or a new 3 rep max personal best you have demonstrated that you are now able to lift a heavier weight at 'X'mph. Alright? I honestly don't think this is that difficult a point to understand to be honest.

This is what the powerclean trains you to do, it makes you stronger at moving progressively heavy weights *quickly*, 'X'mph is quick for everyone. This is why powercleans are valuable and sports specific, eg for a wrestler who needs to be able to lift his 200lb opponent *quickly*.

I'm not saying that if you lift 100lbs at 'X'mph one week, then 110lbs at 'X'mph the next week for a pb, that means you are now necessarily going able to move 100lbs at a speed >'X'mph, that is not what the powerclean trains you to do. It makes you stronger at lifting something at 'X'mph. It develops strength within that speed range.


Box squats performed at dynamic effort loads on the other hand have no equivelant of a rack position, thus speed does not remain constant, therefore you cannot measure improvement in either speed the ability to lift heavy stuff at high speeds accurately. If you lift 150lbs for 5 one week, and 160lbs for 5 the next, as speed doesn't remain constant you can't measure progress. You can't see if you are moving the weight as fast as you moved it 150lbs, so you can't see if you are stronger at squatting heavy stuff fast or not.

Thes inability to measure speed means that squats etc are unsuitable as an outright replacement for powercleans; you simply can't tell if you're getting better at them.

I just reported you as well, something I've never done.. I don't even neg people that often. I took this to PM for a reason, and it wasn't to start this debate on here or for you to post that message on the board. I asked you to please stop, and be civil and not some childish kid seeking attention. You obviously couldn't respect that. Then you post my PM on the board to continue some e-fight that you're looking for. I'm trying to be cool with you, chill out, and take this to PM as I tried to do.

[GodsAngina]

What did you report me for? Disagreeing with you?

lulz


I really don't want to talk through pm, I'm interested in other people's opinions on the matter etc

[Fullback7]

What did you report me for? Disagreeing with you?

lulz


I really don't want to talk through pm, I'm interested in other people's opinions on the matter etc

Nope, posting PM's across the board that weren't meant to cease this, e-fighting, and trying to antagonize an e-fight by your actions..and the list goes on.

You don't care about an opinion, you care about seeking attention. Why, I don't know. I'm not going to sit here, and have some e-fight with you. I'm sure you're some obsessed poster from the past that had a disagreement with me. Either way I don't care.

This topic isn't a debate, and last I checked no one is going to post in here doing something that I kindly asked not to do. Most people in here, aren't concided as you so obviously are. I shouldn't have assumed you were a quality, and knowledgeable poster, or else I never would have debated a few posts with you.

This is the end of it. I'm putting you on ignore so I don't have to see some 12 year old kid, trying to seek online attention. I suggest anyone else that reads this to do the same.

Good luck with what ever you're doing.

[GodsAngina]

e-fighting?

lol explain how I was 'e-fighting'.

I'll wait.

[dolphinsfan270]

Fullback,
You said earlier in one of your posts you should be doing box squats on a 12 inch or below box. I am 6 foot 3 and a 17 inch box is a little below parrallel for me. Why did you say 12 inch box or below? jwing you probably have a reason behind it

[HardHitter22]

What are some of your favorite max effort lower and upper exercises? Just curious.

Thanks.

[Fullback7]

Fullback,
You said earlier in one of your posts you should be doing box squats on a 12 inch or below box. I am 6 foot 3 and a 17 inch box is a little below parrallel for me. Why did you say 12 inch box or below? jwing you probably have a reason behind it

First off, 17 inches is higher than most benches are. At 17 inches you most likely are way above parallel. Parallel is about 2 or so inches below that, typically for your height . We then take it an inch or 2 further so we have a better explosion out of the hole (Dave Tate considers these actually low box squats). 14 inches is typically the highest the box should be unless working on high box squats. I basically have a straight philosophy of not going above 2 inches below parallel for any lifter. I know a few guys disagree, but if you look at the most powerful lifters out of the hole, they typically are working with 6-12 inch boxes. I had amazing results from performing box squats on a 6 1/2 inch box. If you've never done them I highly suggest you try cycling box heights. The pure force you will have out of the hold on a 12 inch box is incredible after a 6 inch box cycle. It was one of the best things when I hit a plat at 545 on the box squat. Within a month alone, I hit 565 with ease after cycling to much lower box heights. Be warned though if you don't posses the flexibility to get down that low, it will be rough. It's also a hell of a struggle to get that weight up that low.

Here is a few quotes from Dave Tate's Basic training book that you may like. I am also going to PM you with some info that may help you in your athletic training.

Keep sitting back until you sit on the box. The box should be one inch lower than parallel for most people, although I sometimes recommend that less experienced lifters find a box that puts them at one inch above parallel. When selecting a box, most people need one about 12–14 inches high. Also, pick one that's big enough to fit your butt. Some people use a flat bench for box squats. I've found that these are seldom set at the proper height and may be too narrow for some.

As far as the definition of "parallel," it's defined as when the crease of the hip is in line with the top of the knee. Remember, most people have very poor hamstring and hip strength to squat properly in the first place. If they tried to squat without the box, they'd fall over backward. The box is the best way to teach proper squat
48
form while bringing up weak points. The box squat also breaks the eccentric/concentric chain. This is one of the best ways to build explosive strength. The box squat also causes you to squat from a static contraction to a dynamic concentric contraction, which is another very effective way to build explosive strength.
When you reach the box, sit down and relax the hip flexors while keeping every other muscle tight. Don't fall down on the box and try to bounce off of it. Sit back with the same speed that you squat. Pause on the box for a split second and explode off of it. Don’t bounce! Your knees must still be pushed out and your abs, upper back, and arms should remain tight while your back stays arched. When you're on the box, it's important to have the shins perpendicular to the floor, or better yet, past perpendicular. This places all of the tension on the squatting muscles.

[Fullback7]

What are some of your favorite max effort lower and upper exercises? Just curious.

Thanks.

My favorite lift is whichever one needs to be worked on to help my weakness

For upper body it would have to be floor press for triples, and lower would easily be the box squat with a SS bar for singles.

[virtus]

Thank you for making this thread. If you need any additional information, please let me know.

BACKGROUND

I am 27 years old and play pickup basketball and other recreational sports. I am 6'1" 183 lbs. with 11% bf. I've been lifting off and on for 9 years, but am trying to get more serious about it.

Due to $$ reasons, I had to give up my gym membership and currently only have access to my apartment's gym room. This gym has a cable machine (Precor FTS Glide, I'd post the link but BB.com won't let me) with two 200 lbs stacks of weights. The machine has ankle strips, hand grips and a barbell-like bar attachment.

There is also a rack of DBs that goes up to 50 lbs.

Since losing access to free weights in October, I feel like I've hit a plateau.

GOAL

I'd like to get to the 190-200 lb. range with <10% bf while being as explosive as possible (in terms of sprinting, vertical, etc.)

QUESTIONS

Is there a workout routine I can do with my current equipment (+ sprinting and anything else I can do outdoors) to get to my goal or do I need to figure out a way to join a gym?

Do you have any advice on cheap sources of relatively clean calories that I can use to put on weight?

[dolphinsfan270]

First off, 17 inches is higher than most benches are. At 17 inches you most likely are way above parallel. Parallel is about 2 or so inches below that, typically for your height . We then take it an inch or 2 further so we have a better explosion out of the hole (Dave Tate considers these actually low box squats). 14 inches is typically the highest the box should be unless working on high box squats. I basically have a straight philosophy of not going above 2 inches below parallel for any lifter. I know a few guys disagree, but if you look at the most powerful lifters out of the hole, they typically are working with 6-12 inch boxes. I had amazing results from performing box squats on a 6 1/2 inch box. If you've never done them I highly suggest you try cycling box heights. The pure force you will have out of the hold on a 12 inch box is incredible after a 6 inch box cycle. It was one of the best things when I hit a plat at 545 on the box squat. Within a month alone, I hit 565 with ease after cycling to much lower box heights. Be warned though if you don't posses the flexibility to get down that low, it will be rough. It's also a hell of a struggle to get that weight up that low.

Here is a few quotes from Dave Tate's Basic training book that you may like. I am also going to PM you with some info that may help you in your athletic training.

ok thanks for the tips. After this 3 week cycle with the SS bar for triples and 70 lbs of chains ima do a reg bar squat cycle on a 14 in box for 5 reps. But, my toes are 43 inches apart when I squat. So since i am going to bring by depth down 4 more inches should I bring my feet in? What stance do you ussually reccomend for box squats?

[DriveMyWhey]

If you tell them the position, they will know when to fast forward. Don't learn my lesson the hard way. I sent a hundred highlight tapes out, and those tapes aren't cheap. Every coach liked the highlight tape, but what they really wanted to see was the full game tape. I spent a lot of time doing those tapes, and I worked hard putting it together with music, and everything. All the coaches do is turn the volume down, and watch the tape. I mean they don't want to hear your rap highlight tape about caddy's, big booty ho's, and purple drank.

They can usually, and easily pick you out. Most of the time it's some GA sitting in a back room watching countless video tapes. I remember going into the video room freshman year, and seeing a stack of video tapes up to the wall, and a little GA was sitting there watching hours of tape. Because that GA then sends it to the asst., who talks to the HC. This obviously doesn't happen everywhere, but it's been the norm at d1-d3 schools that I have personally seen.

when you say tape you actually mean dvd, right?
on film session, we had a guy that would actually edit the games, i don't mean put music, but have an intro, and you could choose if you want special teams only, defense only and offense only, or a combination of some of these. this is accepted right?
should i maybe send a highlight tape AND 2 full-game tapes of my best games?
if I'll send these(tapes will be uploaded to youtube) on BOTH email and regular mail, will it just increase my chances of getting noticed or will it be rude and the coaches might just knock me off?

[davis94FBALL]

Hi Fullback7, I was wondering if you can help me out here. I have been lurking around these forums for a long time now but never made an account -- until I saw this thread and figured it could be A LOT of help. I play football in High School and am currently lifting. I am a sophomore, 16 years old. Next year is Junior year, time for the big Varsity. I want to play linebacker and / or fullback. But, my coaches see me as an offfensive lineman because my freshman year was my first time playing organized football and like an idiot i went to the lineman with a friend. Now my coaches all say that "I will be an offensive line man for the rest of my life" well, I disagree. They say I have a knack for it, i'm good at creating holes and have the aggressiveness for an o lineman. But, I don't want to be an o-lineman. What are the chances of a college football scout scout out a 5'10 200 pound lineman? I'm to small. I can easly be a fullback because I have ball coordination and the aggressiveness to run someone over (i've done it plenty of times on scout) or create a hole for the RB. Well anyways, I want to be a linebacker or fullback. I played O line and linebacker last year (2009). My school is completely bias, it's "if you're a senior, you will start". Well to my understanding i need two years to get my name out, and I am absolutely positive I am better then most of the seniors, and want to step on that field and take away whatevr position from them.

I have a gym membership, and plan to start going everyday now. I run track.
About me: 5'10; 200 pounds. BENCH: 225, Squat: 335, Deadlift: 305. 40: 5.4-5.3, is FOOTBALL SMART, understands everything and is a good listener and fast learner.

Now, what type of nutrition should I be on? I'm 16 years old, so protein? How should I eat? like buling or a lot of proteins split into amounts? What type of workouts: speed, explosion, strength, agility, flexibility (I don't care much for strength, I'm naturally strong in the legs, but the other 4 are a BIG NEED TO KNOW. I want to stress explosion.) EDIT: and also what I work out by myself at the gym, it's what I do, so going heavy how should I do that without a spotter? Like turn bench into DB press?

Any help would be appreciated!

[-iLift-]

Hey broski, thanks for taking some of your time to do this thread.

I'm actually inquiring for a friend, here. My friend is entering his last football offseason, and he wants to make his senior year a memorable one. So I took up the task of training him.

The thing is, I'm a wrestler, not a football player. All of the training I do is with the intent to either maintain my strength throughout the season, or increase strength, while minimizing hypertrophy. I'm knowledgeable as far as nutrition and general kinesiology are concerned, but I'm lacking in terms of football specific training, in this case for a DE.

I've read several Defranco articles, browsed his website and I know a good amount about his training philosophies and such. But, I'm hesitant to pick up this up one of his WSFSB routines for a couple of reasons. One, he has never done any serious weight training. Two, I'm not sold enough on his training to want to use it just yet. I've also considered starting up on a rippetoes, but he's not exactly a complete novice, either.

To give some background on my friend, he's 5'11, 220 lbs, around 23% bf. Ideally, he wants to be slightly heavier, at around 12-15% bf. I don't know any of his legit bench or squat stats, but I've seen him throw around 225 for eight reps easily, so I'm guessing his max is probably around 265-285. His bench is pretty mediocre. I don't know his forty because our school's football program is sh!t, and they don't ever test their players.

We have the equipment of your typical commercial gym available to us, and we are considering investing in a prowler. We have around 6-7 months, so we want to take advantage of all the time we have available. Thanks in advance.

[Fullback7]

Been out for a few days, I'll answer PM's and posts tonight or in the morning.