Paleo diet discussion

[AbAbber2k]

A diet based on a religion of evolution? Amazing, sounds like lean meat and vegetable diet to me. Paleolithic man is a joke, you guys can believe you evolved from a rock, go ahead.

Does troll need feedz?//

[mac520]

As far as I know, lifespans continued to increase post paleolithic time, and none of that had to do with modern medicine or refrigeration or any of the fancy things that pro-paleo fanatics like to accuse our current state of relying upon.

There are causes other than medicine or refrigeration. When paleo man gave up his nomadic lifestyle to build houses next to his farm, he acquired more protection from the elements and predators. Childbearing women did not have to migrate every day, stressing their bodies and resulting in high childbirth death rates. Most paleo people died violent deaths from trauma. Also farming provided a consistent food supply, mitigating risk of starvation.

So lifespan is not an indicator of health when there are other variables going on that the same time. Pelvic depth and height are better indicators, and we still haven't returned to our paleo standards, though we have been slowly getting closer over the past 10,000 years.

This is all in that article that was posted on the first page, by the way.

[Jefferson17]

I'll answer science with science, but that piece you linked is merely dressed-up opinion.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. (Abraham Lincoln)

[Jefferson17]

There are causes other than medicine or refrigeration. When paleo man gave up his nomadic lifestyle to build houses next to his farm, he acquired more protection from the elements and predators. Childbearing women did not have to migrate every day, stressing their bodies and resulting in high childbirth death rates. Most paleo people died violent deaths from trauma. Also farming provided a consistent food supply, mitigating risk of starvation.

So lifespan is not an indicator of health when there are other variables going on that the same time. Pelvic depth and height are better indicators, and we still haven't returned to our paleo standards, though we have been slowly getting closer over the past 10,000 years.

This is all in that article that was posted on the first page, by the way.

Hi Mac,

Just to clarify - that quote was from On Fire. So you may wish to edit or repost to him rather than to me.

Jeff

[deniall]

Just wanted to contribute to this thread as I recently went on a Paleo/Crossfit adventure.

Overall the diet is geared towards good health and performance (where Crossfit is concerned). It achieves this by controlling insulin so you don't get uneven energy spikes throughout the day. As a result, performance/energy is nice and even and in some cases greatly increased.

As far as overall health goes I can't really comment because I only did Paleo for 30 days but performance wise it was fantastic. I had more energy for Crossfit workouts, better lifts, better energy throughout the day, faster recovery and I lost bodyfat. I didn't gain any lbm because I wasn't eating enough and I need a lot of food to gain weight. I think if I did it again I would use the Crossfit/Zone protocol for hardgainers and use only Paleo foods.

I think if you're looking for overall health and performance then this is the diet for you. However, if you're a bodybuilder and are concerned with gaining weight then I think grains are a very important food that cannot be overlooked.

Checkout the Crossfit forums for more info on Paleo.

[deniall]

Just read through the thread and I apologize for my post above as it's not science based at all. I do have an opinion on Paleo but as far as scientific evidence goes I don't have anything to contribute apart from what is available on the internet.

[mac520]

So far I've gained 6 lbs of LBM and 1 pound of fat over the past 6 weeks on a paleo diet and bulking. The trick to getting in extra calories is lots of fat: cook with a whole stick of butter. take shots of olive oil.

[Jefferson17]

Just read through the thread and I apologize for my post above as it's not science based at all. I do have an opinion on Paleo but as far as scientific evidence goes I don't have anything to contribute apart from what is available on the internet.

Oh that's just fine. This thread doesn't really require that all posts are exclusively "science-based". We are pleased to have you join the conversation in such a thoughtful manner, and we are equally pleased to have someone share their real life experiences.

Perhaps your post might help to inspire others to try it out.

Welcome!

Jeff

[Jefferson17]

So far I've gained 6 lbs of LBM and 1 pound of fat over the past 6 weeks on a paleo diet and bulking. The trick to getting in extra calories is lots of fat: cook with a whole stick of butter. take shots of olive oil.

Hi Mac,

How can one actually measure LBM to determine those gains? I believe your #s. I'm just curious as to how that's doable.

What I'd be also interested in is what are the strength gains over the same timeframe with some of the big typical lifts.

Tx!

Jeff

[SDC77]

So far I've gained 6 lbs of LBM and 1 pound of fat over the past 6 weeks on a paleo diet and bulking. The trick to getting in extra calories is lots of fat: cook with a whole stick of butter. take shots of olive oil.

You have not gained 6 lbs of muscle in 6 weeks. If you did, you'd be the first person in the history of the the universe who has done so.

[On Fire]

So far I've gained 6 lbs of LBM and 1 pound of fat over the past 6 weeks on a paleo diet and bulking. The trick to getting in extra calories is lots of fat: cook with a whole stick of butter. take shots of olive oil.

Paleo and anabolic steroids? You should share your secrets with Ronnie Coleman, I'm not even sure he gains LBM that quickly.

Cook with a whole stick of butter and take shots of pure olive oil.... JUST LIKE PALEOLITHIC MAN WOULD.

I believe your #s.

Your naivety is rearing its ugly head again.

You have not gained 6 lbs of muscle in 6 weeks. If you did, you'd be the first person in the history of the the universe who has done so.

BINGO.

[KLMARB]

I'll answer science with science, but that piece you linked is merely dressed-up opinion.

How ironic. Debating religion is so pointless....

[Teflon_Don]

How ironic. Debating religion is so pointless....

If you have something that's written by someone who doesn't have such an obvious bias, then I will read it. Loren Cordain is not one of those people. Don't give me this religion bullshiz.

[KLMARB]

If you have something that's written by someone who doesn't have such an obvious bias, then I will read it. Loren Cordain is not one of those people. Don't give me this religion bullshiz.

"Obvious bias"? Do you understand that you've just dismissed his research and made an ad hominem attack at the same time? Do you expect to be taken seriously? If you're going to make that type of an attack, you could at least attempt to cite some reason why you believe the way you do. Or is it a matter of faith?

[mac520]

You have not gained 6 lbs of muscle in 6 weeks. If you did, you'd be the first person in the history of the the universe who has done so.

Sorry, was closer to 7 or weeks.

And beginners have reportedly gained up to 3 lbs of muscle per week. I had taken all winter break off and so I had lost a lot of strength which I quickly regained. While this would have been possible on a non-paleo diet too, I was just proving that it is also possible to bulk on a paleo diet.

Cook with a whole stick of butter and take shots of pure olive oil.... JUST LIKE PALEOLITHIC MAN WOULD.

Again, it's not about mimicking exactly the foods paleo man ate, but mimicking the metabolic effect. From www.panu.com:

The diet is not about eating exactly what "cavemen" ate, or killing your own food. It is solely about more closely duplicating what I believe are the key elements of the internal hormonal metabolic milieu that we evolved under from especially less than 1 million years ago to about 10,000 years ago. This is likely to be achieved not by eating specific things, but more by not eating specific things.

[On Fire]

And beginners have reportedly gained up to 3 lbs of muscle per week.

Beginners are also notorious for exaggerating gains and reporting placebos as real body effects.

[Holyspokes]

Again, it's not about mimicking exactly the foods paleo man ate, but mimicking the metabolic effect. From www.panu.com:

and.... by eating butter you are "not eating specific things"?

[mac520]

Beginners are also notorious for exaggerating gains and reporting placebos as real body effects.

No, that's straight from Rippetoe witnessing beginners gain up to 3 lbs a week

and.... by eating butter you are "not eating specific things"?

Correct I am not eating grains, legumes, seed-derived oils, or processed garbage. Read up at www.panu.com

[SDC77]

Paleo man did not eat butter, therefore you should not eat butter either.

[Teflon_Don]

No, that's straight from Rippetoe witnessing beginners gain up to 3 lbs a week

When Rippetoe allows an independent 3rd party to verify his claims, I'll actually think about believing him. Right now its him with calipers and some before and after pictures. I fully believe that these guys can gain 3lbs of weight per week, but not 3lbs of LBM.

Correct I am not eating grains, legumes, seed-derived oils, or processed garbage. Read up at www.panu.com

Except that paleo man did, in fact, eat grains. Oh, and you forgot the evil fructose in your little list.

[Teflon_Don]

"Obvious bias"? Do you understand that you've just dismissed his research and made an ad hominem attack at the same time? Do you expect to be taken seriously? If you're going to make that type of an attack, you could at least attempt to cite some reason why you believe the way you do. Or is it a matter of faith?

That's not primary research. Its more of a review of the literature as Cordain sees it. And don't bullshi me with the "obvious bias" nonsense, when you put "Loren Cordain" into the google search box, this website (http://www.thepaleodiet.com/) is the first search result.

Stop with your accusations of matter of faith. You are standing on the side that looks more religious. Show me the primary research that demonstrates why I shouldn't consume grains, fructose, omega-6 fats, and legumes. Please. Randomized Controlled Trials (aka RCTs) Or at least an impartial review of the primary research. Thank you.

[Holyspokes]

Correct I am not eating grains, legumes, seed-derived oils, or processed garbage. Read up at www.panu.com

great, wtf does that have to do with Paleo?

[mac520]

great, wtf does that have to do with Paleo?

That IS paleo. I really hate repeating myself. All your questions can be answered by that link.

[Holyspokes]

That IS paleo. I really hate repeating myself. All your questions can be answered by that link.

first, that link is either wrong or broken.

second, dairy is not paleo... in any way.

[Jefferson17]

That's not primary research. Its more of a review of the literature as Cordain sees it. And don't bullshi me with the "obvious bias" nonsense, when you put "Loren Cordain" into the google search box, this website (http://www.thepaleodiet.com/) is the first search result.

Stop with your accusations of matter of faith. You are standing on the side that looks more religious. Show me the primary research that demonstrates why I shouldn't consume grains, fructose, omega-6 fats, and legumes. Please. Randomized Controlled Trials (aka RCTs) Or at least an impartial review of the primary research. Thank you.

Wow! You actually CAN write more than just dis-inventive thoughtless one liners? You can actually also write inane multi-sentence replies and meaningless accusations, without a single shred of anything to back up what is merely your personal opinion. The research is all out there for you to peruse ... if you knew how to navigate Google, which now seems less likely with every passing post from you, then you might actually learn something. But a full cup can't be filled with knowledge - and your cup is tiny indeed.

Again, master of the self-proclaimed, "world fittest blog" .. we've SEEN your photos on ********.

Again - take some tips from your BROTHER - he's the one that LOOKS FIT!

When you shed that extra chin fat, and demonstrate that you can in any way hold a proper counter-argument then you MIGHT be taken seriously, instead of for the utter fool that you consistently strive to remain.

Unfortunately, it also appears that you have already sired a child, who will no doubt inherit your utter lack of coherent reasoning and even less ability to debate a point or hold a simple back-and-forth conversation. But I guess that's ok - the world needs it's lowest common denominator types like you, to humor us while you persist in striving in vain to have your "15 minutes".

We may all look forward to having your daughter serving us lunch in a few years when she achieves her own personal height of professional aptitude.

Thanks for playing!

[Beech27]

Good god what a mess this thread has turned in to. Although it smacks of hubris, I'm going to re-post something I said in an earlier thread.

A strict interpretation of the paleo diet is unnecessarily exclusionary. Which is not to say that there aren't valuable lessons to be gleaned from it. Pasture raised meat is nutritionally superior to grain fed -- and tends to taste much better as well. In general people should eat more vegetables. They are much more satiating and nutritionally dense that grains, thus making them ideal for those concerned with body composition. And fat isn't the devil. In fact, the paleo diet is rather tame in making this point, when compared to other "primal-esque" diets. The point is, following a diet to the "T" is generally just an excuse to indulge in compulsive behavior. It's better to take appealing, helpful ideas, and fit them in to your life.

That, I think, is the key point here. If people find aspects of the diet that seem to yield positive results, then that's great for them. If others have success eating in ways that are starkly different, that's great too. I don't think there's any need to establish a "best" diet, or to deride one as total malarky.

[On Fire]

Wow! You actually CAN write more than just dis-inventive thoughtless one liners? You can actually also write inane multi-sentence replies and meaningless accusations, without a single shred of anything to back up what is merely your personal opinion. The research is all out there for you to peruse ... if you knew how to navigate Google, which now seems less likely with every passing post from you, then you might actually learn something. But a full cup can't be filled with knowledge - and your cup is tiny indeed.

Again, master of the self-proclaimed, "world fittest blog" .. we've SEEN your photos on ********.

Again - take some tips from your BROTHER - he's the one that LOOKS FIT!

When you shed that extra chin fat, and demonstrate that you can in any way hold a proper counter-argument then you MIGHT be taken seriously, instead of for the utter fool that you consistently strive to remain.

Unfortunately, it also appears that you have already sired a child, who will no doubt inherit your utter lack of coherent reasoning and even less ability to debate a point or hold a simple back-and-forth conversation. But I guess that's ok - the world needs it's lowest common denominator types like you, to humor us while you persist in striving in vain to have your "15 minutes".

We may all look forward to having your daughter serving us lunch in a few years when she achieves her own personal height of professional aptitude.

Thanks for playing!

Pitiful. Absolutely pitiful and it speaks to your character. You came into an advanced nutrition thread to personally attack someone who disagrees with you and asks for non-biased research findings.

I'm absolutely disgusted with your tactics. I think it's time you got off the forums and took a good look in the mirror. If I could neg you again, I would, and I suggest everyone does so others know the person they're taking 'advice' from is a useless tit.

[mac520]

Good god what a mess this thread has turned in to. Although it smacks of hubris, I'm going to re-post something I said in an earlier thread.

A strict interpretation of the paleo diet is unnecessarily exclusionary. Which is not to say that there aren't valuable lessons to be gleaned from it. Pasture raised meat is nutritionally superior to grain fed -- and tends to taste much better as well. In general people should eat more vegetables. They are much more satiating and nutritionally dense that grains, thus making them ideal for those concerned with body composition. And fat isn't the devil. In fact, the paleo diet is rather tame in making this point, when compared to other "primal-esque" diets. The point is, following a diet to the "T" is generally just an excuse to indulge in compulsive behavior. It's better to take appealing, helpful ideas, and fit them in to your life.

That, I think, is the key point here. If people find aspects of the diet that seem to yield positive results, then that's great for them. If others have success eating in ways that are starkly different, that's great too. I don't think there's any need to establish a "best" diet, or to deride one as total malarky.

Thank you, this summed up everything I have been trying to say but not in words those good. People seem to look at the most extremist versions of Paleo and attack it. Take what is useful, reject what is not. Most of Paleo's contentions such as the pastured meat and eating vegetables are indisputably true.

[On Fire]

Most of Paleo's contentions such as the pastured meat and eating vegetables are indisputably true.

I honestly don't think you'd find anyone non-vegetarian/vegan would contend that eating pasture raised meats and organic vegetables is a bad thing. As we all know this thread has gone completely sideways, and I think we can all share a little fault in it.

Back to the topic at hand: Here at BB.com, the guys who don't buy into broscience prefer to base our tactics on scientifically backed findings usually gleaned from abstracts written by professionals. To this end, can any of you paleo followers produce said abstracts in regards to eating organic grains, legumes, etc etc? As you can see, I'm clearly having a hard time wrapping my head around the exclusion of well known healthy foods.

Lets try to stay on track.

[Teflon_Don]

Wow! You actually CAN write more than just dis-inventive thoughtless one liners? You can actually also write inane multi-sentence replies and meaningless accusations, without a single shred of anything to back up what is merely your personal opinion. The research is all out there for you to peruse ... if you knew how to navigate Google, which now seems less likely with every passing post from you, then you might actually learn something. But a full cup can't be filled with knowledge - and your cup is tiny indeed.

Again, master of the self-proclaimed, "world fittest blog" .. we've SEEN your photos on ********.

Again - take some tips from your BROTHER - he's the one that LOOKS FIT!

When you shed that extra chin fat, and demonstrate that you can in any way hold a proper counter-argument then you MIGHT be taken seriously, instead of for the utter fool that you consistently strive to remain.

Unfortunately, it also appears that you have already sired a child, who will no doubt inherit your utter lack of coherent reasoning and even less ability to debate a point or hold a simple back-and-forth conversation. But I guess that's ok - the world needs it's lowest common denominator types like you, to humor us while you persist in striving in vain to have your "15 minutes".

We may all look forward to having your daughter serving us lunch in a few years when she achieves her own personal height of professional aptitude.

Thanks for playing!

Still waiting on that primary research...