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  1. #1
    Insert custom user title mark118's Avatar
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    Depressing study on atd

    Just read this news on a study done on atd

    http://www.ergo-log.com/atd.html

    what do you guys think? im not sure how heavy a rat is but it would seem the doses used in this experiment are rather large relative to what we BBers use.

    any opinions?
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  2. #2
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    30-60mg/kg is a ridiculous amount. That's equivalent to 300-600mg in a 220lb man or 10-20x the amount recommended.
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  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by ~Hades~ View Post
    30-60mg/kg is a ridiculous amount. That's equivalent to 300-600mg in a 220lb man or 10-20x the amount recommended.
    aah thanks, my head is really fuzzy. its 11pm here and i've been looking at drug doses all day
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  4. #4
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    Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    aah thanks, my head is really fuzzy. its 11pm here and i've been looking at drug doses all day
    Well I've been sick the last couple days and my head is a little fuzzy, too. Hopefully my math is right.
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  6. #6
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    bump
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    Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    Just read this news on a study done on atd

    http://www.ergo-log.com/atd.html

    what do you guys think? im not sure how heavy a rat is but it would seem the doses used in this experiment are rather large relative to what we BBers use.

    any opinions?

    those results on the surface do not seem positive for ATD at all

    but we know nothing about the dose dependence. somethings have an inverse U dose dependency - that is at lower dosages there is a positive correlation then a maximum is reached and after that a negative correlation

    my guess is that at high dosages ATD may interefere with steroidogenesis. if it were just an anti-androgenic thing you would expect an increase in test levels not decrease
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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    those results on the surface do not seem positive for ATD at all

    but we know nothing about the dose dependence. somethings have an inverse U dose dependency - that is at lower dosages there is a positive correlation then a maximum is reached and after that a negative correlation

    my guess is that at high dosages ATD may interefere with steroidogenesis. if it were just an anti-androgenic thing you would expect an increase in test levels not decrease
    so your saying at some point your reach the point where the effectiveness begins to decline based on dose taken?

    I remember when 6oxo first hit- I think people were doing 600mg, and then it seemed like 300mg was enough for a test boost (or as effective). Personally- I think I saw the best results with 400mg total (200mg morning and then 200mg night)

    Same thing with the Nolvadex XT- seemed like too much made peoples libido drop heavy and when you cut the original reccomended dose in half (1 pill I believe) then you got less side effects.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    those results on the surface do not seem positive for ATD at all
    Pat,

    On a side note what is your feelings/reccomendations for coming of 6OXO or an ATD ?

    Is there a need to taper off slowly to prevent rebound gyno ?
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by LOWTESTOSTERONE View Post
    Same thing with the Nolvadex XT-
    For the 10,000,000th time, there is no such thing as Nolvadex XT.

    Originally Posted by LOWTESTOSTERONE View Post
    Is there a need to taper off slowly to prevent rebound gyno ?
    There is also no such thing as rebound gyno.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    Just read this news on a study done on atd

    http://www.ergo-log.com/atd.html

    what do you guys think? im not sure how heavy a rat is but it would seem the doses used in this experiment are rather large relative to what we BBers use.

    any opinions?
    Like others said, too high of dosages. If your concerned, Just use reversitol.... if the ATD doesnt work, you got 6bromo in there to do the job Although i believe that study is BS.
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  12. #12
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    I have to cry foul, they gave a dose of 30mg/kg which about anyone could have predicted would have that effect. We know ATD binds to the AR and antagonizes it, so at that kind of dose we would likely see that effect.

    Without reading the study, that is about a 315mg dose per day, which is pretty high and a whopping dose of 630mg in the high group (60mg/kg). So, in a nutshell, bad study, had they used a reasonable dosage galvaged it would have been FAR more fair and appealing.

    I don't sell ATD, but this kind of anti-steroid "fixing" is pretty common with Europeans who try to damage anything steroidal.

    Edit: read the paper, it wasn't a test of sports supplements at all. This site really has bad information sometimes.
    Last edited by legalgear; 01-21-2010 at 07:42 AM.
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  13. #13
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    I skimmed the full study. It mainly looks at behavioral traits to make judgments on the effects of AI's in male rats. Much less attention is paid to the actual hormones, and there is only small mention of the changes. They did report that levels of estradiol were higher with ATD+testosterone compared to testosterone alone. This isn't great, but doesn't necessarily mean that there was no aromatase inhibition. Mind you, this study was not to "test" ATD - this was simply the chosen aromatase inhibitor.

    The study also does not support ATD having an anti-androgenic effect. To quote the paper, "...some studies indicate that ATD...may act as an antagonist at the androgen receptor. However, this was likely not the case in the present experiments since ATD did not significantly affect relative accessory organ weight...as androgen receptor antagonists do."


    There really is not a whole lot you can take from this study. While I wouldn't say it is supportive, it is far from proof ATD is ineffective. Ergogenics is a very good site, but they often are quick to negatively judge supplements when studies don't come fourth with glowing data.

    These guys are Dutch though, and I find that people in Holland are not very big into natural bodybuilding supplements - most are highly suspicious of American companies making such claims. Understandable.
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  14. #14
    Registered User legalgear's Avatar
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    I think the antagonism is tissue specific from the looks of it, but I have only looked at it briefly to be honest, since we are out of the ATD business.
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  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by ~Hades~ View Post
    For the 10,000,000th time, there is no such thing as Nolvadex XT.
    My spelling sucks... Poor name choice by Gaspari too.


    Originally Posted by ~Hades~ View Post


    There is also no such thing as rebound gyno.
    Wrong on this one.
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  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by LOWTESTOSTERONE View Post
    Wrong on this one.
    I trust this guy much more than you. No offense.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=30
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    Originally Posted by ~Hades~ View Post
    I trust this guy much more than you. No offense.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=30
    Well I got it from quiting cold turkey. So trust me when I say it.

    No gland I believe- but for sure mega puffy fat accumulation all around nips and arm pits. Soft and fatty...

    It sorta went away with a cut but only about 50%. Currently cutting round 2- hope for the best
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