can i build lean muscle mass with low calorie/high protein diet?

[herestolife1000]

trying to get that brad pitt from fight club body. so i'm doing a lot of cardio and a low calorie diet to get rid of excess body fat

my question is can i build lean muscle mass still with LOW CALORIES but DECENT PROTEIN? (140-170 g's a day, and i weigh about 152)

[OrangeRanger75]

no.

[herestolife1000]

so there's no possible way to to gain muscle mass while cutting?

[Amel]

yes

well, if you drink three shakes 30g of protein each, with skim milk, thats already 1k calories, do some fruits, almonds and a nice carb meal..you already around 1600 cals

[OrangeRanger75]

yes

well, if you drink three shakes 30g of protein each, with skim milk, thats already 1k calories, do some fruits, almonds and a nice carb meal..you already around 1600 cals

...need more detail
cause this statement holds no mileage

discuss

[Amel]

his weight is 157

1600-1800 in cals would make him bigger

[herestolife1000]

his weight is 157

1600-1800 in cals would make him bigger

i'd say i'm between 1600-2000 calories a day (sorry about the large range) (and that is before cardio)
and 140-170 g's of protien

i weigh 152-155
i'm about 6'1 - 6'2

[OrangeRanger75]

his weight is 157

1600-1800 in cals would make him bigger

only if he eats and sits like a brick for the rest of the day
even then 1700-1800 is to maintain his current weight

[OrangeRanger75]

i'd say i'm between 1600-2000 calories a day (sorry about the large range) (and that is before cardio)
and 140-170 g's of protien

i weigh 152-155
i'm about 6'1 - 6'2

how many times u workout a week
at what intensity

[edit]
cause eattin that little on top of cardio
u notice any weight loss?

[herestolife1000]

how many times u workout a week
at what intensity

[edit]
cause eattin that little on top of cardio
u notice any weight loss?

lost a few pounds, but i also have MUCH more defined abs now (which was my original goal)

and i workout every muscle pretty hard (almost to failure) at least twice a week

and i looked it up on a site once and it estimated i need about 2667 to maintain my weight in calories

edit:every muscle except legs, i bike, run, and play basketball

and i'm pretty sure i've noticed increase in my chest and arm mass

[gooseguy312]

trying to get that brad pitt from fight club body. so i'm doing a lot of cardio and a low calorie diet to get rid of excess body fat

my question is can i build lean muscle mass still with LOW CALORIES but DECENT PROTEIN? (140-170 g's a day, and i weigh about 152)

- UH WELL... i can tell you i went from 190lbs being able too bench press 225 probably like once or twice....


too current 175lbs being able to bench a bit more then 300....



AND GUESS WHAT??? I did it all without cutting or bulking....



I rly dont care about all this crap about not being able to build muscle and burn fat at the same time because... well i did it myself pretty dam effectively.


It might be easier to bulk and THEN cut, but i made serious strength gains while on a calorie restricted diet, but hey believe what you want man...

[herestolife1000]

- UH WELL... i can tell you i went from 190lbs being able too bench press 225 probably like once or twice....


too current 175lbs being able to bench a bit more then 300....



AND GUESS WHAT??? I did it all without cutting or bulking....



I rly dont care about all this crap about not being able to build muscle and burn fat at the same time because... well i did it myself pretty dam effectively.


It might be easier to bulk and THEN cut, but i made serious strength gains while on a calorie restricted diet, but hey believe what you want man...

IMO best advice so far. thanks

i think i'm gonna keep doing i'm i'm doing (lots of weights, cardio, low calorie, high protein) while i'm still seeing improvements, and then if i'm not happy i'll switch it up

thanks for theinput guys

[startinout12]

Alright so this is my take on things

No, you cannot build muscle on an under maintenance calorie diet. If you are taking in less calories (energy), than your body needs to maintain current size, then none of those calories are going to be used for new mass, they will be used for exercise, daily activity and repairing after workouts.

I had recently used Dave Palumbos cutting diet which is 1-1.5g proteing/BW and .5g fat/BW and no direct sources of carbs except one meal a week. This is obviously a calorie restricted diet, which is why people lose weight, not gain it. This is your exact situation you are asking about. It is good amount of protein- about 250g( hard to get more, but will try next time) and about 110g fat (yes you need fat, healthy fat though). Eventhough i ate decent amount of protein ( weight about 220) it was still under maintenance calories, so i lost fat and did not gain muscle. You do want to eat good amount of protein on a diet to help recover from workouts and to prevent muscle wasting, but you will not gain muscle.

Now, the guy above(whose answer you really liked) talked about not liking bulking or cutting phases. While i would advise not to go overboard i would say each is necessary in its own way. You need excess calories (in good macros) to build muscle and need fewer calories (in good macros) to lose bf and trying to keep muscle mass. He may have done just fine without specifically doing each phase, but without counting macros it is pretty hard to say what exactly he was doing at specific times. Not taking anything away from him or his answer as i do not know him.

K, hope i said everything i wanted to say

[herestolife1000]

Alright so this is my take on things

No, you cannot build muscle on an under maintenance calorie diet. If you are taking in less calories (energy), than your body needs to maintain current size, then none of those calories are going to be used for new mass, they will be used for exercise, daily activity and repairing after workouts.

I had recently used Dave Palumbos cutting diet which is 1-1.5g proteing/BW and .5g fat/BW and no direct sources of carbs except one meal a week. This is obviously a calorie restricted diet, which is why people lose weight, not gain it. This is your exact situation you are asking about. It is good amount of protein- about 250g( hard to get more, but will try next time) and about 110g fat (yes you need fat, healthy fat though). Eventhough i ate decent amount of protein ( weight about 220) it was still under maintenance calories, so i lost fat and did not gain muscle. You do want to eat good amount of protein on a diet to help recover from workouts and to prevent muscle wasting, but you will not gain muscle.

Now, the guy above(whose answer you really liked) talked about not liking bulking or cutting phases. While i would advise not to go overboard i would say each is necessary in its own way. You need excess calories (in good macros) to build muscle and need fewer calories (in good macros) to lose bf and trying to keep muscle mass. He may have done just fine without specifically doing each phase, but without counting macros it is pretty hard to say what exactly he was doing at specific times. Not taking anything away from him or his answer as i do not know him.

K, hope i said everything i wanted to say

great response, what do you guys think about carb loading one day a week then?

[startinout12]

This is mostly from Dave Palumbo, but i am saying it here because i agree with it and it worked for me.

First of all:
You do not need to carb load unless you are on very low carbs obviously. i.e. not really eating a direct source of them. Some people chose to eat more carbs on a cut, while others may cycle them, which is fine, but no need for a carb load if you are already getting enough.

Second:
If you are doing minimal carbs, then a carb load is necessary for proper thyroid function and for a bit of glucose storage to help recover and used as fuel for workouts. Dont go insane with this. Too much carbs as a carb up could add more fat and then that defeates hte purpose. I just did one meal on a Saturday, which was a normal meal and could be whatever you really wanted it to be just nothing insane like a box of donuts, but a decent meal with protein, fat, and carbs.

I am assuming that you are talking about the CKD diet. I actually started out on that diet, but IMO it was too much fat and not enough protein and the whole day for carb up was all out of whack for me and didnt work too well.

I recommend going to rxmuscle.com and reading dave palumbo's answers to all the questions he gets from people. I feel he is very knowledgable and will help you achieve your goals.

Just a tip:
If you do a low carb/high protein/ mod fat or the CKD which is low carb/high fat/ mod protein dont eat loads of bad fat. Two reasons why i recommend this. First, lots of saturated (although u need some) and trans fat are not good for you, although 1g of fat =9 cals no matter what it is so you could still lose weight. Secondly, the consumption of healthy fats is necessary for muscle growth.

[FunkymonkAW]

Definitely not. This was the mentality I used to have, and made little/no progress in the area of muscle gain. Don't waste your time.

[dat]

- UH WELL... i can tell you i went from 190lbs being able too bench press 225 probably like once or twice....


too current 175lbs being able to bench a bit more then 300....



AND GUESS WHAT??? I did it all without cutting or bulking....



I rly dont care about all this crap about not being able to build muscle and burn fat at the same time because... well i did it myself pretty dam effectively.


It might be easier to bulk and THEN cut, but i made serious strength gains while on a calorie restricted diet, but hey believe what you want man...

Strength gain does not equal or explicitly relate to an increase in muscle mass or size. Yes, you got stronger but no, in all likeliness you did not gain significant muscle mass. The question relates to increase in muscle mass.

IMO best advice so far. thanks

You only think this is the best because it's what you wanted to hear. Best of luck with it, but you won't significantly gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Losing weight (as mostly fat) will make you more defined but not bigger. If you have no decent muscular base you'll just look like a skinny little myspace kid.

[Big Slim DaDDy]

- UH WELL... i can tell you i went from 190lbs being able too bench press 225 probably like once or twice....


too current 175lbs being able to bench a bit more then 300....



AND GUESS WHAT??? I did it all without cutting or bulking....



I rly dont care about all this crap about not being able to build muscle and burn fat at the same time because... well i did it myself pretty dam effectively.


It might be easier to bulk and THEN cut, but i made serious strength gains while on a calorie restricted diet, but hey believe what you want man...

That's your CNS adapting that isn't you adding muscle. OP asked if he can add muscle not if he can get stronger.

[daYDreAmErX]

At your height/weight/age you shouldn't be cutting.

[W84IT]

- UH WELL... i can tell you i went from 190lbs being able too bench press 225 probably like once or twice....


too current 175lbs being able to bench a bit more then 300....



AND GUESS WHAT??? I did it all without cutting or bulking....



I rly dont care about all this crap about not being able to build muscle and burn fat at the same time because... well i did it myself pretty dam effectively.


It might be easier to bulk and THEN cut, but i made serious strength gains while on a calorie restricted diet, but hey believe what you want man...

This is probably the best take on it. I am 175, I put up 350lb on bench, and I got there while cutting. I have consulted with doctors, body builders, and personal trainers and their answers were all the same: Can it be done - Yes, IS this the preferred method?- no.

You need a lot of calories for your body to burn and thus produce energy. If you are looking for quick results over a relatively short period of time then you need to cutt then bulk. If you are in no rush then I would suggest lifting hard, maintain a little over your required calory intake, and mix in so HITT workouts.

You will only gain 2 to 5lb of muscles in a year time frame but it will be muscle that isn't going anywhere.

When you bulk then cutt many people burn muscle as well because they are still working out hard, cutting calories, and doing a lot of cardio, thus your body will start to burn what ever it needs to produce energy. i am not saying muscles is going to melt away this way, I am just saying I hate to gain muscle to burn it off later.

I am cutting right now and I still lift the same amount of weight and I am still on the same diet. The only thing I change when cutting is how often I do HITT training, which not only alows me to cutt but is also great for conditioning.

[W84IT]

- UH WELL... i can tell you i went from 190lbs being able too bench press 225 probably like once or twice....


too current 175lbs being able to bench a bit more then 300....



AND GUESS WHAT??? I did it all without cutting or bulking....



I rly dont care about all this crap about not being able to build muscle and burn fat at the same time because... well i did it myself pretty dam effectively.


It might be easier to bulk and THEN cut, but i made serious strength gains while on a calorie restricted diet, but hey believe what you want man...

This is probably the best take on it. I am 175, I put up 350lb on bench, and I got there while cutting. I have consulted with doctors, body builders, and personal trainers and their answers were all the same: Can it be done - Yes, IS this the preferred method?- no.

You need a lot of calories for your body to burn and thus produce energy. If you are looking for quick results over a relatively short period of time then you need to bulk then cutt. If you are in no rush then I would suggest lifting hard, maintain a little over your required calory intake, and mix in some HITT workouts.

You will only gain 2 to 5lb of muscles in a year time frame this way but it will be muscle that isn't going anywhere.

When you bulk then cutt many people burn muscle as well because they are still working out hard, cutting calories, and doing a lot of cardio, thus your body will start to burn what ever it needs to produce energy. I am not saying muscles is going to melt away this way, I am just saying I hate to gain muscle to lose some of it later but sometimes it is a neccessary sacrifice.

I am cutting right now and I still lift the same amount of weight and I am still on the same diet. The only thing I change when cutting is how often I do HITT training, which not only alows me to cutt but is also great for conditioning.

[herestolife1000]

This is probably the best take on it. I am 175, I put up 350lb on bench, and I got there while cutting. I have consulted with doctors, body builders, and personal trainers and their answers were all the same: Can it be done - Yes, IS this the preferred method?- no.

You need a lot of calories for your body to burn and thus produce energy. If you are looking for quick results over a relatively short period of time then you need to bulk then cutt. If you are in no rush then I would suggest lifting hard, maintain a little over your required calory intake, and mix in some HITT workouts.

You will only gain 2 to 5lb of muscles in a year time frame this way but it will be muscle that isn't going anywhere.

When you bulk then cutt many people burn muscle as well because they are still working out hard, cutting calories, and doing a lot of cardio, thus your body will start to burn what ever it needs to produce energy. I am not saying muscles is going to melt away this way, I am just saying I hate to gain muscle to lose some of it later but sometimes it is a neccessary sacrifice.

I am cutting right now and I still lift the same amount of weight and I am still on the same diet. The only thing I change when cutting is how often I do HITT training, which not only alows me to cutt but is also great for conditioning.

that's kinda the mindset i was going for. i mean they say you shouldn't work out the sam muscles everyday but think about an instance where somebody starts a super labor intensive job. 5 days a week cutting timber (or something random), they are going to build muscle regardless, it's just not the same way arnold would have done it

and don't ask about cutting. i'm sure you were in high school once, which means -

mass=nothing
low body fat=attractive

so chalk the cutting up to me being a teenager

[KingCrimson]

This is probably the best take on it. I am 175, I put up 350lb on bench, and I got there while cutting. I have consulted with doctors, body builders, and personal trainers and their answers were all the same: Can it be done - Yes, IS this the preferred method?- no.

You need a lot of calories for your body to burn and thus produce energy. If you are looking for quick results over a relatively short period of time then you need to bulk then cutt. If you are in no rush then I would suggest lifting hard, maintain a little over your required calory intake, and mix in some HITT workouts.

You will only gain 2 to 5lb of muscles in a year time frame this way but it will be muscle that isn't going anywhere.

When you bulk then cutt many people burn muscle as well because they are still working out hard, cutting calories, and doing a lot of cardio, thus your body will start to burn what ever it needs to produce energy. I am not saying muscles is going to melt away this way, I am just saying I hate to gain muscle to lose some of it later but sometimes it is a neccessary sacrifice.

I am cutting right now and I still lift the same amount of weight and I am still on the same diet. The only thing I change when cutting is how often I do HITT training, which not only alows me to cutt but is also great for conditioning.

I've never believed in bulking and I've never bulked in the past year and a half since I started lifting weights and I've been consistently making strength and size gains. I just eat at maintainance levels, never above, but sometimes below. Some other weightlifters I've observed show this to be true and Nightmare84 is proof that bulking is a myth. Just look at him! All I see when I come to this site is people bulking and getting fat, not gaining any more muscle than they would if they just had normal diets. I know by personal experience that it's possible to gain muscle while on a cut but it's not optimal.

[dat]

i'm sure you were in high school once, which means -

mass=nothing
low body fat=attractive

so chalk the cutting up to me being a teenager

Until you get in a fight...

[herestolife1000]

Until you get in a fight...

not here to brag on a forum of older people i don't know, but i've been able to hold my own in a fight

and i've tried bulking before, granted it was dirty. but all i could ever get was a little extra flab over my stomach, i couldn't ever put on any weight (and this was eating practically ALL DAY)

i think it has something to do with my body type but i don't really think bulking is an option for me, do you guys think i should eat at calorie maintanence levels then? (2667) and still have the 140-170 in protien?

[herestolife1000]

and another thing, all i ever heard in health class regarding fats and muscles was that -

fat cells don't disappear, they shrink
fat can't be turned into muscle, and vice versa

which also means if i do a heavy bulk, it's going to be super easy to put that fat back on

[W84IT]

I've never believed in bulking and I've never bulked in the past year and a half since I started lifting weights and I've been consistently making strength and size gains. I just eat at maintainance levels, never above, but sometimes below. Some other weightlifters I've observed show this to be true and Nightmare84 is proof that bulking is a myth. Just look at him! All I see when I come to this site is people bulking and getting fat, not gaining any more muscle than they would if they just had normal diets. I know by personal experience that it's possible to gain muscle while on a cut but it's not optimal.

Exactly. This is what has to be understood. When thinking of your body you have to look at it not only from the perspective as a lifter or bodybuilder but also from a medical stand point. You build muscle by creating micro-tears in your muscles and then having those tears repaired by available protein in your body. The key word there is available. The theory is if you have more protein in your body then your body has more protein to repair itself with which is partially true. Most people take below the level of protein they need which causes the problem. If you are on a normal diet your body will actually build muscle quiet well just slower. The thing about a high protein or bulk diet is this: Regardless of how much protein you take in your body will only use what it needs. The pros and cons are as follows: Pro- whenever your body needs protein on a high protein diet it will have what it needs. Con- your body will get rid of the excess when you sh** thus hard a** sh**. I am sure many of you know what I mean. The pros and cons of a normal diet are as follows Pros- your body doesn't have to make major adjustments due to diet changes, no rock hard sh**s, and your body becomes more resourceful at using what it has. Cons- It will sometimes take your muscles longer to repair themselves and you will not make big gains in a short amount of time.

So, in the end it is about what you want to do. However, gaining muscle on a normal diet is anything but impossible. In fact most doctors would recommend this simple because there are health risk with constantly gaining and losing large amounts of weight. It often puts a strain on the heart.

[Big Slim DaDDy]

I've never believed in bulking .

Stats: 5'10", 143 lbs


That is blatantly obvious.

[W84IT]

Until you get in a fight...

LOL. I stayed in fights in high school and I was 140lbs soaking wet. Never prevented my hands from being deadly. Being big and strong is one thing, being big and strong and knowing how to use it is another. Most kids in highschool just like to look big they have no idea what they going to do once they get big. I got into a fight with a guy who was 6'1" and 200lbs easy in high school. Before he completely his first haymaker he was on the ground. I completely agree that size and strength are factors in a fight just not the most important ones. I am stronger and bigger than most light and welter weight boxers but I will be damn if I get into the ring with one. LOL.

[Big Slim DaDDy]

bulking is a myth. .

How is it a myth when so many people have been succesful with it?