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  1. #1
    FUNNBAR's Coming Soon! TheFugitive's Avatar
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    Soy protein vs Whey protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Biological Value?

    The Biological Value (BV) method uses nitrogen retention quantify protein quality. The Biological Value provides a measure of the amount of nitrogen retained from consumption of protein compared to the amount of nitrogen consumed when a person is in a "fasted" state (the stomach is completely empty).
    The Biological Value indicates both how digestible the protein is and how available the protein is for use by the body. Biological value began as a percentage - A whole egg rated at 100% nitrogen absorbed.

    As time progressed, protein powders became better sources of protein, exposing a flaw in the BV measurement system. Today, the number is on an adjusted scale such that a whole egg is has a BV of 100. This allows some processed proteins to have biological values greater than 100. Obviously, the higher the number, the better.

    How do the BV values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 1 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein BV
    Soy Protein Concentrate 74
    Whey Protein 104
    Round 1 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Net Protein Utilization?

    Net Protein Utilization (NPU) is the amount of amino acids converted to protein inside the body versus the amount of amino acids from protein eaten.
    The NPU measures the ratio of protein consumed through a person's diet, to the amount of nitrogen emission.

    The value varies from 0 to 100 and is often interpreted as a percentage. A value of 100 means that the body uses 100% of the protein provided. Conversely, a value of 0 signifies that none of the nitrogen converts to protein in the body. Therefore, the higher the number, the better the protein.

    How do the NPU values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 2 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein NPU
    Soy Protein Concentrate 61
    Whey Protein 92
    Round 2 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Efficiency Ratio?

    The protein efficiency ratio measures the gain in body weight divide by the weight of the protein consumed for infant laboratory rats.
    The FDA used the protein efficiency ratio to derive the recommended daily allowance of protein seen on food labels.

    Some concerns with PER include the fact that rats utilize protein differently than humans, leading into some calculation errors. These errors cause a slight overestimation of animal protein and a slight underestimation of plant protein.

    Also, PER measures only growth, and says nothing of maintenance. As a result, it might not be the best measure of the quality of protein for those of us attempting to burn fat.

    How do the NPU values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Any protein having greater than a 2.7 PER calculation is considered an excellent source of protein.

    Round 3 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PER
    Soy Protein Concentrate 2.2
    Whey Protein 3.2
    Round 3 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Amino Acid Score?

    The amino acid score (AAS) is fast, consistent, and inexpensive. It measures essential amino acids in a protein compared to a reference protein. The AAS rates the protein on the most limiting amino acid found in the protein under consideration.
    One limitation of the AAS is that it does not consider the digestibility of the protein.

    A value greater than 1 indicates that the protein being considered contains a greater amount of essential amino acids than humans require.

    How do the AAS values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 4 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein AAS
    Soy Protein Concentrate 0.99
    Whey Protein 1.14
    Round 4 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score?

    The protein digestibility corrected amino acid score (PDCAAS) makes a correction for the limitation of the simple amino acid score described above.
    Like the AAS, the PDCAAS measures the It measures essential amino acids in a protein compared to a reference protein. The reference protein meets the essential amino acid requirements of humans, and is given a PDCAAS of 1.0.

    The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) set out to address the concerns about some of the measurements above with the PDCAAS measurement. As a result, many health experts recognize PDCAAS as the standard measure of protein quality.

    This method is not without flaws, however. In particular, in 1990, the FAO/WHO decided that proteins having a PDCAAS higher than 1.0 would be rounded down to 1.0 to indicate that it meets or exceeds the requirements of the average human.

    These essential amino acid needs of the average human may be significantly lower than the needs of bodybuilders, weight lifters, and other highly active individuals.

    Because of the rounding down of proteins that have scores greater than 1.0, there is no way to discern differences between proteins with a PDCAAS score of 1.0 other than to refer back to the other measures that PDCAAS hoped to eliminate.

    As indicated below, this lack of clarity is of particular concern in the soy versus whey protein debate.

    How do the PDCAAS values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 5 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PDCAAS
    Soy Protein Concentrate 1.00
    Whey Protein 1.00
    Round 5 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Push.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Digestibility Percentage?

    The protein digestibility percentage (PD%) measures the percentage of protein eaten that is absorbed in the body.
    Protein digestibility is the PD component of the PDCAAS above.

    It is interesting to note that, while the FDA is replacing PER as the standard measure of protein quality with PDCAAS due to differences between humans and laboratory rats, the PD% is determined by evaluating laboratory rats.

    How do the PD percentages compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 6 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PD%
    Soy Protein Concentrate 95%
    Whey Protein 99%
    Round 6 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has More Glutamine?

    Glutamine is a non-essential amino acid. Your body uses glutamine to transport nitrogen to your tissues.
    Glutamine also increases muscle cell volume through cellular hydration. Glutamine supplementation also increases growth hormone levels, which leads to the muscle using fatty acids for fuel rather than blood sugar.

    Those looking to build muscle should consume 3 to 5 grams of glutamine, 3 times per day.

    It is obvious that we may prefer the protein that has the highest concentration of glutamine.

    How do our contestants stack up in the soy versus whey protein battle?

    Round 7 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Glutamine per 100g of Protein
    Soy Protein Concentrate 10.5g
    Whey Protein 4.9g
    Round 7 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Soy Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has the Most Essential Amino Acids?

    Essential amino acids (EAA) are not produced in the body. You must obtain these essential amino acids through your diet.
    You must have the right combination of non-essential and essential amino acids in sufficient quantities in order to build muscle. Therefore, a comparison of the essential amino acid profile is a necessary component in the soy versus whey protein comparison.

    This comparison provides additional clarity on the amino acid scores (AAS and PDCAAS) listed above.

    How do the essential amino acid profiles compare in the soy versus whey protein comparison?

    Round 8 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein mg EAA per g of Protein
    Amino Acid Soy Protein Whey Protein
    Isoleucine (BCAA) 49mg 54mg
    Leucine (BCAA) 82mg 89mg
    Valine (BCAA) 48mg 82mg
    Histidine 19mg 16mg
    Lysine 64mg 88mg
    Methionine 26mg 32mg
    Phenylalanine 38mg 32mg
    Threonine 38mg 65mg
    Tryptophan 14mg 22mg
    Totals 378mg 480mg
    Round 8 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has More Arginine?

    Arginine is a non-essential amino acid that helps ward off both mental and physical fatigue.
    Arginine also helps to facilitate muscle growth through promoting the release of both growth hormone and insulin in the body during intense exercise such as bodybuilding.

    Arginine has become popular recently due to its ability to produce nitric oxide, which increases blood flow, and thus delivers more nutrients to the muscles and promoting growth.

    An additional benefit of arginine is that it may lower LDL cholesterol levels in the bloodstream and increases lipid (fat) metabolism.

    Who wins the soy versus whey protein battle in Round 9?

    Round 9 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Arginine per 100g of Protein
    Soy Protein 7.6g
    Whey Protein 2.9g
    Round 9 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Soy Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey Protein - You Be The Judge

    We examined several criteria in the soy versus whey protein debate. In general, the facts considered here are in favor of whey protein, especially if you choose to supplement your protein intake with a glutamine supplement and arginine supplement.
    However, that is not to say that it is not a good idea to supplement with soy protein. Soy protein is shown to be an excellent source of protein and can be used effectively in bodybuilding supplementation, particularly for those who are vegetarians or lactose intolerant.

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Protein Type
    Criteria Soy Protein Whey Protein Better Protein
    Biological Value (BV) 74 104 Whey Protein
    Net Protein Utilization (NPU) 61 92 Whey Protein
    Protein Efficiency Ration (PER) 2.2 3.2 Whey Protein
    Amino Acid Score (AAS) 0.99 1.14 Whey Protein
    Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS) 1.00 1.00 Push
    Protein Digestibility Percentage (PD%) 95% 99% Whey Protein
    Glutamine per 100g of Protein 10.5g 4.9g Soy Protein
    mg EAA per g of Protein 378mg 480mg Whey Protein
    Arginine per 100g of Protein 7.6g 2.9g Soy Protein
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  2. #2
    vegan LegosInMyEgos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheFugitive View Post
    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Biological Value?

    The Biological Value (BV) method uses nitrogen retention quantify protein quality. The Biological Value provides a measure of the amount of nitrogen retained from consumption of protein compared to the amount of nitrogen consumed when a person is in a "fasted" state (the stomach is completely empty).
    The Biological Value indicates both how digestible the protein is and how available the protein is for use by the body. Biological value began as a percentage - A whole egg rated at 100% nitrogen absorbed.

    As time progressed, protein powders became better sources of protein, exposing a flaw in the BV measurement system. Today, the number is on an adjusted scale such that a whole egg is has a BV of 100. This allows some processed proteins to have biological values greater than 100. Obviously, the higher the number, the better.

    How do the BV values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 1 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein BV
    Soy Protein Concentrate 74
    Whey Protein 104
    Round 1 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Net Protein Utilization?

    Net Protein Utilization (NPU) is the amount of amino acids converted to protein inside the body versus the amount of amino acids from protein eaten.
    The NPU measures the ratio of protein consumed through a person's diet, to the amount of nitrogen emission.

    The value varies from 0 to 100 and is often interpreted as a percentage. A value of 100 means that the body uses 100% of the protein provided. Conversely, a value of 0 signifies that none of the nitrogen converts to protein in the body. Therefore, the higher the number, the better the protein.

    How do the NPU values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 2 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein NPU
    Soy Protein Concentrate 61
    Whey Protein 92
    Round 2 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Efficiency Ratio?

    The protein efficiency ratio measures the gain in body weight divide by the weight of the protein consumed for infant laboratory rats.
    The FDA used the protein efficiency ratio to derive the recommended daily allowance of protein seen on food labels.

    Some concerns with PER include the fact that rats utilize protein differently than humans, leading into some calculation errors. These errors cause a slight overestimation of animal protein and a slight underestimation of plant protein.

    Also, PER measures only growth, and says nothing of maintenance. As a result, it might not be the best measure of the quality of protein for those of us attempting to burn fat.

    How do the NPU values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Any protein having greater than a 2.7 PER calculation is considered an excellent source of protein.

    Round 3 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PER
    Soy Protein Concentrate 2.2
    Whey Protein 3.2
    Round 3 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Amino Acid Score?

    The amino acid score (AAS) is fast, consistent, and inexpensive. It measures essential amino acids in a protein compared to a reference protein. The AAS rates the protein on the most limiting amino acid found in the protein under consideration.
    One limitation of the AAS is that it does not consider the digestibility of the protein.

    A value greater than 1 indicates that the protein being considered contains a greater amount of essential amino acids than humans require.

    How do the AAS values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 4 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein AAS
    Soy Protein Concentrate 0.99
    Whey Protein 1.14
    Round 4 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score?

    The protein digestibility corrected amino acid score (PDCAAS) makes a correction for the limitation of the simple amino acid score described above.
    Like the AAS, the PDCAAS measures the It measures essential amino acids in a protein compared to a reference protein. The reference protein meets the essential amino acid requirements of humans, and is given a PDCAAS of 1.0.

    The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) set out to address the concerns about some of the measurements above with the PDCAAS measurement. As a result, many health experts recognize PDCAAS as the standard measure of protein quality.

    This method is not without flaws, however. In particular, in 1990, the FAO/WHO decided that proteins having a PDCAAS higher than 1.0 would be rounded down to 1.0 to indicate that it meets or exceeds the requirements of the average human.

    These essential amino acid needs of the average human may be significantly lower than the needs of bodybuilders, weight lifters, and other highly active individuals.

    Because of the rounding down of proteins that have scores greater than 1.0, there is no way to discern differences between proteins with a PDCAAS score of 1.0 other than to refer back to the other measures that PDCAAS hoped to eliminate.

    As indicated below, this lack of clarity is of particular concern in the soy versus whey protein debate.

    How do the PDCAAS values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 5 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PDCAAS
    Soy Protein Concentrate 1.00
    Whey Protein 1.00
    Round 5 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Push.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Digestibility Percentage?

    The protein digestibility percentage (PD%) measures the percentage of protein eaten that is absorbed in the body.
    Protein digestibility is the PD component of the PDCAAS above.

    It is interesting to note that, while the FDA is replacing PER as the standard measure of protein quality with PDCAAS due to differences between humans and laboratory rats, the PD% is determined by evaluating laboratory rats.

    How do the PD percentages compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 6 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PD%
    Soy Protein Concentrate 95%
    Whey Protein 99%
    Round 6 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has More Glutamine?

    Glutamine is a non-essential amino acid. Your body uses glutamine to transport nitrogen to your tissues.
    Glutamine also increases muscle cell volume through cellular hydration. Glutamine supplementation also increases growth hormone levels, which leads to the muscle using fatty acids for fuel rather than blood sugar.

    Those looking to build muscle should consume 3 to 5 grams of glutamine, 3 times per day.

    It is obvious that we may prefer the protein that has the highest concentration of glutamine.

    How do our contestants stack up in the soy versus whey protein battle?

    Round 7 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Glutamine per 100g of Protein
    Soy Protein Concentrate 10.5g
    Whey Protein 4.9g
    Round 7 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Soy Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has the Most Essential Amino Acids?

    Essential amino acids (EAA) are not produced in the body. You must obtain these essential amino acids through your diet.
    You must have the right combination of non-essential and essential amino acids in sufficient quantities in order to build muscle. Therefore, a comparison of the essential amino acid profile is a necessary component in the soy versus whey protein comparison.

    This comparison provides additional clarity on the amino acid scores (AAS and PDCAAS) listed above.

    How do the essential amino acid profiles compare in the soy versus whey protein comparison?

    Round 8 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein mg EAA per g of Protein
    Amino Acid Soy Protein Whey Protein
    Isoleucine (BCAA) 49mg 54mg
    Leucine (BCAA) 82mg 89mg
    Valine (BCAA) 48mg 82mg
    Histidine 19mg 16mg
    Lysine 64mg 88mg
    Methionine 26mg 32mg
    Phenylalanine 38mg 32mg
    Threonine 38mg 65mg
    Tryptophan 14mg 22mg
    Totals 378mg 480mg
    Round 8 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has More Arginine?

    Arginine is a non-essential amino acid that helps ward off both mental and physical fatigue.
    Arginine also helps to facilitate muscle growth through promoting the release of both growth hormone and insulin in the body during intense exercise such as bodybuilding.

    Arginine has become popular recently due to its ability to produce nitric oxide, which increases blood flow, and thus delivers more nutrients to the muscles and promoting growth.

    An additional benefit of arginine is that it may lower LDL cholesterol levels in the bloodstream and increases lipid (fat) metabolism.

    Who wins the soy versus whey protein battle in Round 9?

    Round 9 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Arginine per 100g of Protein
    Soy Protein 7.6g
    Whey Protein 2.9g
    Round 9 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Soy Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey Protein - You Be The Judge

    We examined several criteria in the soy versus whey protein debate. In general, the facts considered here are in favor of whey protein, especially if you choose to supplement your protein intake with a glutamine supplement and arginine supplement.
    However, that is not to say that it is not a good idea to supplement with soy protein. Soy protein is shown to be an excellent source of protein and can be used effectively in bodybuilding supplementation, particularly for those who are vegetarians or lactose intolerant.

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Protein Type
    Criteria Soy Protein Whey Protein Better Protein
    Biological Value (BV) 74 104 Whey Protein
    Net Protein Utilization (NPU) 61 92 Whey Protein
    Protein Efficiency Ration (PER) 2.2 3.2 Whey Protein
    Amino Acid Score (AAS) 0.99 1.14 Whey Protein
    Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS) 1.00 1.00 Push
    Protein Digestibility Percentage (PD%) 95% 99% Whey Protein
    Glutamine per 100g of Protein 10.5g 4.9g Soy Protein
    mg EAA per g of Protein 378mg 480mg Whey Protein
    Arginine per 100g of Protein 7.6g 2.9g Soy Protein
    The only time you should supplement with protein is PWO and before bed. Since there both fast absorbing, go with the one that absorbs faster which is whey.

    Also so whole proestrogen thing
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  3. #3
    FUNNBAR's Coming Soon! TheFugitive's Avatar
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  4. #4
    Registered User AdmiralSizzla's Avatar
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    uh I cant do the science stuff you posted, but I've read convincing scientific journals that shows that the Soy protein essentially boosts estrogen levels (or something like that) and therefore is not wanted by bb's. And i think most lifters/bb's would say hell no to soy because of that, and thats what Ive been seeing alot on this website's forums.
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  5. #5
    Registered User distantarray's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdmiralSizzla View Post
    uh I cant do the science stuff you posted, but I've read convincing scientific journals that shows that the Soy protein essentially boosts estrogen levels (or something like that) and therefore is not wanted by bb's. And i think most lifters/bb's would say hell no to soy because of that, and thats what Ive been seeing alot on this website's forums.
    nice false info btw, do a search on soy protein and bodybuilding and you'll realize that it's not the case. It's just false information that's sold to people cause it's what sells, remember that people once believed that the world was flat, and that the earth was the center of the universe.

    Cosmo and any women's magazine still tells women to do low weights and high reps to get tone and definition....

    Soy protein has a chemical called phyto-estrogen. which is plant based estrogen. Most bodybuilders hear estrogen and go FK NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

    but here's the funny thing about phyto estrogen. It shares a lot of characteristics of human estrogen, meaning that it mimics it in many ways, when there's a good amount of phyto-estrogen in your system, your body will actually produce less of it's own estrogen.

    Of course in super high doses anything can go wrong, but remember also that when soy protein is turned into powder that phyto-estrogen content is actually killed off in the process. Due to the alcohol used in the procedure.

    So basically to get the bad effects on overdosing on phyto-estrogen, you'd literally have to eat a couple pounds of soy beans a day.

    Also Soy protein isn't considered as good as whey, mainly because soy has a lot of amino acids that are incomplete, which means that it doesn't have all the nessasary ingredients to digest and process everything. It's like having a calcium supplement without magnesium to help your body process it, a lot of it will actually go to waste.

    Now if you mix soy protein with more complete sources then you'll get a much better result.
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  6. #6
    "The Clive of Triceps" Recawn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by distantarray View Post
    nice false info btw, do a search on soy protein and bodybuilding and you'll realize that it's not the case. It's just false information that's sold to people cause it's what sells, remember that people once believed that the world was flat, and that the earth was the center of the universe.
    Awful comparison.

    But yes consuming a large amount of soy products can cause estrogen-like side effects, small amounts will usually just be balanced by less endogenous estradiol levels.
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  7. #7
    lasher in training Swamp Dog's Avatar
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    TheFugitive,
    Do you have this worked up between Gemma and Whey?
    I'm not asking you to do my research, but if you have the info just lying around...
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    Registered User dangoadam's Avatar
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    I have seen and competed against vegan bodybuilders and they have just as good of physiques as anyone else on the stage. It all comes down to moderation. A little bit of soy in your diet is not going to harm you any. Thus the importance of a "balanced diet"
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  9. #9
    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Swamp Dog View Post
    TheFugitive,
    Do you have this worked up between Gemma and Whey?
    I'm not asking you to do my research, but if you have the info just lying around...
    There was nothing worked up except some copy and pasting.

    http://www.build-muscle-and-burn-fat...y-protein.html
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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    lasher in training Swamp Dog's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    There was nothing worked up except some copy and pasting.

    http://www.build-muscle-and-burn-fat...y-protein.html
    Ha ha, I was trying to be discreet.
    I really didn't expect an answer.
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  11. #11
    FUNNBAR's Coming Soon! TheFugitive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    There was nothing worked up except some copy and pasting.

    http://www.build-muscle-and-burn-fat...y-protein.html
    I posted this per a thread discussion on monday relating to soy, so yes copy and paste
    thanks for the kind words.
    Last edited by TheFugitive; 12-23-2009 at 06:43 PM.
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    FUNNBAR's Coming Soon! TheFugitive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Swamp Dog View Post
    TheFugitive,
    Do you have this worked up between Gemma and Whey?
    I'm not asking you to do my research, but if you have the info just lying around...


    copy and paste.
    Last edited by TheFugitive; 12-23-2009 at 06:43 PM.
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    Registered User AdmiralSizzla's Avatar
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    About what i said about soy being false info... i didnt read that off a woman's magazine or any of that bs, I got it from a scietific journal that i could access from my university's online library.

    btw, i dont think this comparison involves whey isolate, which I believe has better bv and aa than your normal whey protein that is a concentrate or a combination
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  14. #14
    FUNNBAR's Coming Soon! TheFugitive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdmiralSizzla View Post
    uh I cant do the science stuff you posted, but I've read convincing scientific journals that shows that the Soy protein essentially boosts estrogen levels (or something like that) and therefore is not wanted by bb's. And i think most lifters/bb's would say hell no to soy because of that, and thats what Ive been seeing alot on this website's forums.
    This was posted per a discussion the other day on soy, I also believe there is no need for soy in the BB industry.
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  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by AdmiralSizzla View Post
    About what i said about soy being false info... i didnt read that off a woman's magazine or any of that bs, I got it from a scietific journal that i could access from my university's online library.

    btw, i dont think this comparison involves whey isolate, which I believe has better bv and aa than your normal whey protein that is a concentrate or a combination
    I'm sure there are a bunch of whey protein concentrates on the market like EAS whey protein from Sams club, but the best protein companies like Isopure, optimum nutrition, dynamize all use Isolate. If you want to save a few bucks concentrate is ok, but the price difference isn't that much that I'd ever choose to buy concentrate over say ON whey. Especially because protein with concentrate base usually doesn't contain digestive enzymes like ON whey and often leave me with nasty protein farts....
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  16. #16
    Consultant mitche23's Avatar
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    I know for me, my body digests soy protein better than whey. Whey makes me really gassy

    Originally Posted by TheFugitive View Post
    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Biological Value?

    The Biological Value (BV) method uses nitrogen retention quantify protein quality. The Biological Value provides a measure of the amount of nitrogen retained from consumption of protein compared to the amount of nitrogen consumed when a person is in a "fasted" state (the stomach is completely empty).
    The Biological Value indicates both how digestible the protein is and how available the protein is for use by the body. Biological value began as a percentage - A whole egg rated at 100% nitrogen absorbed.

    As time progressed, protein powders became better sources of protein, exposing a flaw in the BV measurement system. Today, the number is on an adjusted scale such that a whole egg is has a BV of 100. This allows some processed proteins to have biological values greater than 100. Obviously, the higher the number, the better.

    How do the BV values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 1 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein BV
    Soy Protein Concentrate 74
    Whey Protein 104
    Round 1 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Net Protein Utilization?

    Net Protein Utilization (NPU) is the amount of amino acids converted to protein inside the body versus the amount of amino acids from protein eaten.
    The NPU measures the ratio of protein consumed through a person's diet, to the amount of nitrogen emission.

    The value varies from 0 to 100 and is often interpreted as a percentage. A value of 100 means that the body uses 100% of the protein provided. Conversely, a value of 0 signifies that none of the nitrogen converts to protein in the body. Therefore, the higher the number, the better the protein.

    How do the NPU values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 2 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein NPU
    Soy Protein Concentrate 61
    Whey Protein 92
    Round 2 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Efficiency Ratio?

    The protein efficiency ratio measures the gain in body weight divide by the weight of the protein consumed for infant laboratory rats.
    The FDA used the protein efficiency ratio to derive the recommended daily allowance of protein seen on food labels.

    Some concerns with PER include the fact that rats utilize protein differently than humans, leading into some calculation errors. These errors cause a slight overestimation of animal protein and a slight underestimation of plant protein.

    Also, PER measures only growth, and says nothing of maintenance. As a result, it might not be the best measure of the quality of protein for those of us attempting to burn fat.

    How do the NPU values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Any protein having greater than a 2.7 PER calculation is considered an excellent source of protein.

    Round 3 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PER
    Soy Protein Concentrate 2.2
    Whey Protein 3.2
    Round 3 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Amino Acid Score?

    The amino acid score (AAS) is fast, consistent, and inexpensive. It measures essential amino acids in a protein compared to a reference protein. The AAS rates the protein on the most limiting amino acid found in the protein under consideration.
    One limitation of the AAS is that it does not consider the digestibility of the protein.

    A value greater than 1 indicates that the protein being considered contains a greater amount of essential amino acids than humans require.

    How do the AAS values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 4 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein AAS
    Soy Protein Concentrate 0.99
    Whey Protein 1.14
    Round 4 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score?

    The protein digestibility corrected amino acid score (PDCAAS) makes a correction for the limitation of the simple amino acid score described above.
    Like the AAS, the PDCAAS measures the It measures essential amino acids in a protein compared to a reference protein. The reference protein meets the essential amino acid requirements of humans, and is given a PDCAAS of 1.0.

    The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) set out to address the concerns about some of the measurements above with the PDCAAS measurement. As a result, many health experts recognize PDCAAS as the standard measure of protein quality.

    This method is not without flaws, however. In particular, in 1990, the FAO/WHO decided that proteins having a PDCAAS higher than 1.0 would be rounded down to 1.0 to indicate that it meets or exceeds the requirements of the average human.

    These essential amino acid needs of the average human may be significantly lower than the needs of bodybuilders, weight lifters, and other highly active individuals.

    Because of the rounding down of proteins that have scores greater than 1.0, there is no way to discern differences between proteins with a PDCAAS score of 1.0 other than to refer back to the other measures that PDCAAS hoped to eliminate.

    As indicated below, this lack of clarity is of particular concern in the soy versus whey protein debate.

    How do the PDCAAS values compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 5 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PDCAAS
    Soy Protein Concentrate 1.00
    Whey Protein 1.00
    Round 5 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Push.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has a Better Protein Digestibility Percentage?

    The protein digestibility percentage (PD%) measures the percentage of protein eaten that is absorbed in the body.
    Protein digestibility is the PD component of the PDCAAS above.

    It is interesting to note that, while the FDA is replacing PER as the standard measure of protein quality with PDCAAS due to differences between humans and laboratory rats, the PD% is determined by evaluating laboratory rats.

    How do the PD percentages compare in the soy versus whey protein debate?

    Round 6 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein PD%
    Soy Protein Concentrate 95%
    Whey Protein 99%
    Round 6 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has More Glutamine?

    Glutamine is a non-essential amino acid. Your body uses glutamine to transport nitrogen to your tissues.
    Glutamine also increases muscle cell volume through cellular hydration. Glutamine supplementation also increases growth hormone levels, which leads to the muscle using fatty acids for fuel rather than blood sugar.

    Those looking to build muscle should consume 3 to 5 grams of glutamine, 3 times per day.

    It is obvious that we may prefer the protein that has the highest concentration of glutamine.

    How do our contestants stack up in the soy versus whey protein battle?

    Round 7 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Glutamine per 100g of Protein
    Soy Protein Concentrate 10.5g
    Whey Protein 4.9g
    Round 7 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Soy Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has the Most Essential Amino Acids?

    Essential amino acids (EAA) are not produced in the body. You must obtain these essential amino acids through your diet.
    You must have the right combination of non-essential and essential amino acids in sufficient quantities in order to build muscle. Therefore, a comparison of the essential amino acid profile is a necessary component in the soy versus whey protein comparison.

    This comparison provides additional clarity on the amino acid scores (AAS and PDCAAS) listed above.

    How do the essential amino acid profiles compare in the soy versus whey protein comparison?

    Round 8 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein mg EAA per g of Protein
    Amino Acid Soy Protein Whey Protein
    Isoleucine (BCAA) 49mg 54mg
    Leucine (BCAA) 82mg 89mg
    Valine (BCAA) 48mg 82mg
    Histidine 19mg 16mg
    Lysine 64mg 88mg
    Methionine 26mg 32mg
    Phenylalanine 38mg 32mg
    Threonine 38mg 65mg
    Tryptophan 14mg 22mg
    Totals 378mg 480mg
    Round 8 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Whey Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey - Which has More Arginine?

    Arginine is a non-essential amino acid that helps ward off both mental and physical fatigue.
    Arginine also helps to facilitate muscle growth through promoting the release of both growth hormone and insulin in the body during intense exercise such as bodybuilding.

    Arginine has become popular recently due to its ability to produce nitric oxide, which increases blood flow, and thus delivers more nutrients to the muscles and promoting growth.

    An additional benefit of arginine is that it may lower LDL cholesterol levels in the bloodstream and increases lipid (fat) metabolism.

    Who wins the soy versus whey protein battle in Round 9?

    Round 9 - Soy vs. Whey Protein

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Arginine per 100g of Protein
    Soy Protein 7.6g
    Whey Protein 2.9g
    Round 9 of the Soy Protein versus Whey Protein debate goes to...

    Soy Protein.

    Soy Versus Whey Protein - You Be The Judge

    We examined several criteria in the soy versus whey protein debate. In general, the facts considered here are in favor of whey protein, especially if you choose to supplement your protein intake with a glutamine supplement and arginine supplement.
    However, that is not to say that it is not a good idea to supplement with soy protein. Soy protein is shown to be an excellent source of protein and can be used effectively in bodybuilding supplementation, particularly for those who are vegetarians or lactose intolerant.

    Soy Vs. Whey Protein Protein Type
    Criteria Soy Protein Whey Protein Better Protein
    Biological Value (BV) 74 104 Whey Protein
    Net Protein Utilization (NPU) 61 92 Whey Protein
    Protein Efficiency Ration (PER) 2.2 3.2 Whey Protein
    Amino Acid Score (AAS) 0.99 1.14 Whey Protein
    Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS) 1.00 1.00 Push
    Protein Digestibility Percentage (PD%) 95% 99% Whey Protein
    Glutamine per 100g of Protein 10.5g 4.9g Soy Protein
    mg EAA per g of Protein 378mg 480mg Whey Protein
    Arginine per 100g of Protein 7.6g 2.9g Soy Protein
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    Registered User Nihilil's Avatar
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    I see this mentions soy concentrate; =/= soy isolate...
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    Soy is pretty much garbage. And I've read really bad things about it. Bodybuilding or not...it's bad.

    Whey vs Soy isn't even close. Rice, Egg and Pea is better.

    Soy from what I've read inhibits nutrients from being absorbed properly.

    The only form which is generally safe is fermented Soy.

    And still I'd avoid it if possible. I would never take Soy based protein products at this point from here on...just my opinion though.
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    Somehow, the ancient Chinese knew that soybeans still contain many toxins after cooking and thus avoiding eating it until they learned to neutralize those toxins through fermentation. And in traditional Asian diets, soy is only used in small amounts as a condiment, with pork, seafood and other animals providing the bulk of the protein. Only very recently has soy been eaten the way we typically eat it, consuming large amounts in an unfermented and often highly processed form. Soy was originally considered an inedible plant, used to fix nitrogen in the soil.

    That's a small tid bit about Soy.

    Here is more... I'm not pushing this on people, but once I read about it, the more it made sense.

    ◾Soybeans contain phytoestrogens, which mimic the body’s natural estrogen hormones. For men, this can lead to a testosterone imbalance, infertility, low sperm count, and increased risk of cancers. For women, it can cause estrogen dominance, which has been linked to infertility, menstrual troubles and cancer…
    ◾These phytoestrogens are so strong that a baby consuming only soy formula is consuming the equivalent hormones of 4 birth control pills a day!
    ◾The high levels of phytic acid in soy inhibit the body’s ability to absorb important minerals, including zinc, calcium, copper, iron and magnesium (which many people are dangerously deficient in already).
    ◾Soy also contains protease inhibitors, which can block the enzymes that are necessary for the digestion of certain proteins.
    ◾The goitrogens in soy are potent anti-thyroid compounds that can lead to endocrine disruption and thyroid disorders. Infants on soy formula have a much higher risk of autoimmune thyroid disease. (note: cruciferous vegetables like broccoli, cauliflower and cabbage have these properties as well, though they are lessened greatly by cooking. Cooking does not remove these compounds from soy based foods!)
    ◾Soy is often promoted as an alternative food for celiac and gluten intolerant people, but its lectins can be harmful to the intestines and prevent healing even when gluten is removed.
    ◾Many studies have found even more harmful properties of soy: This link has a summary of many studies done about the harmful effects of soy.
    ◾Consumption of soy foods increases the body’s need for Vitamin D, Vitamin B-12, calcium and magnesium.
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