Is it even remotely possible to gain muscle & lose fat?

[EJ123]

I'm lifting 5-6 times a week to lose weight. I haven't done much cardio, but I believe I am losing some weight. I'm puzzled whether it's even possible to notice a slight increase in muscle mass size over the long term while I continue to focus on the weight (hopefully fat) loss.

Any ideas, opinions, experiences?

Thanks.

[ScivationLead]

Check my sig

[darksoulzero]

Yeah, I was wondering this for a while, but than I asked my doctor. He said that, if we're losing fat then we must have a calorie deficit. He said said sure, you may put on a little bit of muscle but since you're generally losing weight you mostly lose fat. But that's if you're on a diet. Cutting's different, I think.

[copyandpaste]

I'm lifting 5-6 times a week to lose weight. I haven't done much cardio, but I believe I am losing some weight. I'm puzzled whether it's even possible to notice a slight increase in muscle mass size over the long term while I continue to focus on the weight (hopefully fat) loss.

Any ideas, opinions, experiences?

Thanks.

You will lose plenty of water weight at first. Depending on how fat you are, this could be 5 or 10 lbs. But after that, you will lose fat no matter what form of working out youre doing. However, if youre focusing on gaining muscle, you will notice a sudden stop in your weight loss, yet you will still be losing inches. That is because muscle weighs more than fat. So you may only be putting on an inch of muscle, yet losing 3 inches in fat, and you could still be at the same weight.
If youre doing cardio, then youre likely to lose plenty of fat at a higher rate of speed, and you COULD lose muscle as well, though not that much. It depends on how optimal your diet is.

[Tiffany_P]

But that's if you're on a diet. Cutting's different, I think.

How is a diet different from cutting? Cutting is just the word bodybuilders use to describe a diet that creates a calorie deficit.

[EJ123]

Ah ok.

Well see I was 254 pounds back in summer '06. summer of '08 I was 190 lbs, but have since gone up to 200. Now that I've been @ the gym for three months now, I'm about 195 pounds.

I still have a nasty gut (I'm 6'2 by the way), but I've been eating around 2200 cals a day.
Anyways, I'm thinking about going on Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Fat Loss Diet for two weeks consuming just protein. I'm a vegetarian though, so my source of protein may just be powder in the form of casein.

I don't want to sound greedy, but I'd really like to lose more weight and gain a tad of muscle. It's so hard with will-power to eat right...and avoid sodas. I'm sure you all know what I mean.

Now are there any special steps to maximize gains and fat loss hypothetically?

[darksoulzero]

How is a diet different from cutting? Cutting is just the word bodybuilders use to describe a diet that creates a calorie deficit.

Well I said I wasn't sure, which is why I said, 'I think'. I don't really know much about that. But what I do know is that when exercising with a calorie deficit, one will lose muscle, regardless. But you can limit that muscle loss by limiting cardio and going on a diet where the deficit isn't that large, as well as incorporating resistance training. There probably are other factors affecting muscle loss, but I don't know them.

[bigg_K]

Ah ok.

Well see I was 254 pounds back in summer '06. summer of '08 I was 190 lbs, but have since gone up to 200. Now that I've been @ the gym for three months now, I'm about 195 pounds.

I still have a nasty gut (I'm 6'2 by the way), but I've been eating around 2200 cals a day.
Anyways, I'm thinking about going on Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Fat Loss Diet for two weeks consuming just protein. I'm a vegetarian though, so my source of protein may just be powder in the form of casein.

I don't want to sound greedy, but I'd really like to lose more weight and gain a tad of muscle. It's so hard with will-power to eat right...and avoid sodas. I'm sure you all know what I mean.

Now are there any special steps to maximize gains and fat loss hypothetically?

Eating casein for 2 weeks sounds like a bad idea. There are no real steps since if you are focusing on losing fat (calorie deficit) your body is mostly in a catabolic state, hence you won't put on much mass if any. When I was cutting I thought I put on some mass, but it was just the definition. (I lost size, but looked bigger)

[mfitty9000]

I think you can stimulate small amounts of hypertrophy while on a deficit, especially in new or novice lifters who don`t have a ton of muscle to begin with.

[GShonen]

So is lifting important while dieting for fatloss or should I focus on cardio instead? (of course, deficit comes first). I have 4 free days at the gym at my uni, should I go twice a week and cardio at home?

[GregTR]

However, if youre focusing on gaining muscle, you will notice a sudden stop in your weight loss, yet you will still be losing inches. That is because muscle weighs more than fat. So you may only be putting on an inch of muscle, yet losing 3 inches in fat, and you could still be at the same weight.

These numbers are highly unrealistic. While muscle is heavier than fat for the same volume the difference is only 20% not 3 to 1. It is also close to impossible to build large amounts of muscle on a calorie deficit as muscle building requires large amounts of protein and carbs. When you're in a calorie deficit you simply can't provide your body with the required nutrients to make muscle.

Building 10 lbs of lean muscle naturally a year is a pretty good rate. Losing 10lbs of fat in a month is also easily attainable.

[GregTR]

So is lifting important while dieting for fatloss or should I focus on cardio instead? (of course, deficit comes first). I have 4 free days at the gym at my uni, should I go twice a week and cardio at home?

Lifting AND eating large amounts of protein are essential to stop muscle loss. Cardio helps with keeping a calorie deficit going for fat loss. The two are complementing each other as the only way to have large amounts of protein intake yet still have a calorie deficit is if you add cardio to the mix.

[darksoulzero]

Lifting AND eating large amounts of protein are essential to stop muscle loss. Cardio helps with keeping a calorie deficit going for fat loss. The two are complementing each other as the only way to have large amounts of protein intake yet still have a calorie deficit is if you add cardio to the mix.

I have a question, as you can tell, I'm a noob. My doctor told me that when losing weight, I shouldn't focus on cardio since I'm probably going to be on the diet for a while. I asked him why, he said that I should focus on resistance training because for the several months that I am on the diet, with no exercise besides cardio, I'll lose quite a bit of muscle. He also said that if I want to do cardio, I should do only about 15-20mins of low intensity cardio after resistance training. That, and I should drink lots of water.

My doctor also told me that same thing you previously said, that I'll only have slight muscle gains when resistance training. But now I'm reading some posts and people are saying that it is possible to lose fat mass and increase muscle mass at the same time. Normally I wouldn't believe since I know it doesn't work like that, but some of them have some pretty nice pictures to support their claim.

[gusg]

I have a question, as you can tell, I'm a noob. My doctor told me that when losing weight, I shouldn't focus on cardio since I'm probably going to be on the diet for a while. I asked him why, he said that I should focus on resistance training because for the several months that I am on the diet, with no exercise besides cardio, I'll lose quite a bit of muscle. He also said that if I want to do cardio, I should do only about 15-20mins of low intensity cardio after resistance training. That, and I should drink lots of water.

My doctor also told me that same thing you previously said, that I'll only have slight muscle gains when resistance training. But now I'm reading some posts and people are saying that it is possible to lose fat mass and increase muscle mass at the same time. Normally I wouldn't believe since I know it doesn't work like that, but some of them have some pretty nice pictures to support their claim.

Honestly, doctors are very conservative when it comes to dieting and exercising and fat loss. You should read the posts here and anything by bodybuilders who have hands-on experience in the matter. My humble opinion!

[hockeyplaya13]

Alright, I'm gonna go ahead and say I'm not authority on the subject, but I've just been thinking about this a lot lately.

I think it IS possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. It all has to do with timing. People say you have to be in a caloric deficit to lose fat, and a caloric surplus to gain muscle, and obviously you can't be in both at the same time. But the body doesn't run on a 24-hour clock. It doesn't say, OK, 12:00 AM, and I've had 2500 cals today and my maintenance is 2400, so I shall gain 100 cals worth of muscle. It's a constant thing. You can be at a caloric deficit at one point in the day, and then a surplus later. So with correct timing, I think it can be done.

Someone's gonna come here and tell me I'm wrong. OK, I may be, this is just my broscience, I admit. But help me understand this. Say everyday you get up, take some BCAA's and maybe some caffeine, then go run in a fasted state for 45 minutes, LISS. Then for the rest of the day you eat at 300 cals above maintenance and at least 1g protein/lb bodyweight, with a very clean, strict diet. And assume you lift 4-5 days a week, hard. If you're running in a fasted state for 45 min, you must be burning fat. I don't care if at the end of the day you end up in a surplus, AT THAT TIME you are burning fat. Period. There is no food in your body to fuel it, so it must use fat stores. Then you work out, tear the muscle fibers, and refuel with plenty of protein and adequate nutrition. The rest of the day you are in a caloric surplus, which would trigger growth. Explain to me how you would not lose fat and gain muscle doing this, over time. Obviously you wouldnt gain as much as if you straight up bulked, and wouldnt' lose as much fat as if you did an all out cut, but it should be possible to gain a decent amount of muscle and lose a decent amount of fat doing this.

Again, I'm not claiming this to be fact or anything, just my speculation. Please help me understand it.

[GregTR]

I don't care if at the end of the day you end up in a surplus, AT THAT TIME you are burning fat. Period. There is no food in your body to fuel it, so it must use fat stores.

Actually it will also burn glycogen stores from your liver and muscles as well as triacylglycerols from your muscles at that time and it will eat into your muscles as well. Liver stored glycogen might be low in the morning but your biggest glycogen stores, your muscles are still there, ready to go. So this is where your argument fails.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...kidding_052206

And for a much longer discussion in the matter:
http://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=835725

Everyone can make up their own mind about the issue.... or not....

I for one do LISS cardio right before I head to bed, 2-3 hours after carb rich dinner. Why? Because that is when I have time for it, once my kids are down in bed and I hate to get up early in the morning.

[xGordonFreemanx_old]

But the body doesn't run on a 24-hour clock. It doesn't say, OK, 12:00 AM, and I've had 2500 cals today and my maintenance is 2400, so I shall gain 100 cals worth of muscle. It's a constant thing. You can be at a caloric deficit at one point in the day, and then a surplus later. So with correct timing, I think it can be done.

Thanks to your circadian rhythm, your body does run on a 24 hour clock. It knows what time of day it is even if you don't, and it burns calories, regulates sleep and hunger, and all around functions the way that it's supposed to because of this clock. Dieting and exercising is based on the fact that this clock is functioning properly. That's why routines don't call for waking up at random intervals to eat and work out between periods of sleep. It's not the way that we're built.

[Poetique]

Well I said I wasn't sure, which is why I said, 'I think'. I don't really know much about that. But what I do know is that when exercising with a calorie deficit, one will lose muscle, regardless. But you can limit that muscle loss by limiting cardio and going on a diet where the deficit isn't that large, as well as incorporating resistance training. There probably are other factors affecting muscle loss, but I don't know them.

Wrong. Depends on circumstances. Especially relating to larger individuals (such as myself) do not have to lose muscle in addition to losing weight. I'm still gaining muscle currently, actually...

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On one hand I want to repeat myself regarding the losing fat and gaining muscle issue, but on the other hand, I'd end up feeling inclined to answer the same question again 3 days from now.

Short answer?
Yes it's possible to simultaneously lose fat and gain muscle.
No, it's not easy.
No, it's probably not sustainable, especially for the average (and definitely not the average-sized) individual.
Yes, it helps if your body has excess energy (fat) and lots of it.
Yes, it's easier to do if you're an easy-gainer as opposed to a hard gainer.
Yes, when attempting this, cardio has a very strong chance of screwing everything up, especially if you're already a somewhat active individual.
Yes, it's easier to do if you're new to lifting.
Yes, performing both simultaneously is ultimately slower than doing one or the other.

And a good diet for performing the feat is keto. (Especially CKD in my opinion)

I'm not sure if you can search user responses around here but I've answered the question, thoroughly, 3-5 times now. Just try the search, something useful will more than likely popup.

[xXCynikalXx]

Yeah, I think it's definitely got to be at least some what remotely possible. I think.

[W11_YHO]

I believe you can. Ive ate at a deficit and lost fat yet at the same time Ive become stronger and lifting heavier than ever before. If you ask me how I done it, I dont know, Ive only been in the gym for about 5 months! Prob noob gain.

[hockeyplaya13]

Actually it will also burn glycogen stores from your liver and muscles as well as triacylglycerols from your muscles at that time and it will eat into your muscles as well. Liver stored glycogen might be low in the morning but your biggest glycogen stores, your muscles are still there, ready to go. So this is where your argument fails.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...kidding_052206

And for a much longer discussion in the matter:
http://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=835725

Everyone can make up their own mind about the issue.... or not....

I for one do LISS cardio right before I head to bed, 2-3 hours after carb rich dinner. Why? Because that is when I have time for it, once my kids are down in bed and I hate to get up early in the morning.

Repped for responding. I really am interested in this.

I hear a lot that fasted cardio (LISS) will cause catabolism and use muscle for fuel, but won't the consumption of BCAA's beforehand minimize this, and force the body to use fat as fuel? And while yes, your muscles still have glycogen to be burned for energy, doesn't the body switch to burning fat after about 20 minutes? No source, just read it on the forums somewhere. Won't the muscles run out of glycogen at some point, thus forcing the body to use either fat or muscle or fuel (but BCAA consumption minimizing catabolism, so fat becomes the primary fuel)?

[hockeyplaya13]

Thanks to your circadian rhythm, your body does run on a 24 hour clock. It knows what time of day it is even if you don't, and it burns calories, regulates sleep and hunger, and all around functions the way that it's supposed to because of this clock. Dieting and exercising is based on the fact that this clock is functioning properly. That's why routines don't call for waking up at random intervals to eat and work out between periods of sleep. It's not the way that we're built.

OK, I stand corrected, it does. But not in the sense I meant.

Here's a scenario: Person has a caloric maintenance of 2000 cals/day. Today, they didn't eat anything all day, for whatever reason, until 9 pm. At that point, they ate 2500 cals. You're going to tell me that never, during any point in that day, did they burn an ounce of fat off their body, just because they consumed more than their maintenance calories during that day?

All I'm trying to say is that you can be in a caloric surplus for the day, but still burn fat at some point during that day. And if you time everything right, you could burn body fat daily, not replace it, and build muscle.

[coals]

OK, I stand corrected, it does. But not in the sense I meant.

Here's a scenario: Person has a caloric maintenance of 2000 cals/day. Today, they didn't eat anything all day, for whatever reason, until 9 pm. At that point, they ate 2500 cals. You're going to tell me that never, during any point in that day, did they burn an ounce of fat off their body, just because they consumed more than their maintenance calories during that day?

All I'm trying to say is that you can be in a caloric surplus for the day, but still burn fat at some point during that day. And if you time everything right, you could burn body fat daily, not replace it, and build muscle.

This is correct but remember, where do you think that 2500 calories is going? Couple hundred to replace some liver glycogen, maybe a little bit of muscle glycogen, maybe some repair but there will be a large amount of fat deposit from that 2500. Intermittent fasting is based on this principal and to a degree it does slightly improve body composition but this is just logical sense. If you put the majority of your calories after you workout when you're most responsive to being in an anabolic state, than you'll probably see slightly better effects vs if you spread it out.

[hockeyplaya13]

This is correct but remember, where do you think that 2500 calories is going? Couple hundred to replace some liver glycogen, maybe a little bit of muscle glycogen, maybe some repair but there will be a large amount of fat deposit from that 2500. Intermittent fasting is based on this principal and to a degree it does slightly improve body composition but this is just logical sense. If you put the majority of your calories after you workout when you're most responsive to being in an anabolic state, than you'll probably see slightly better effects vs if you spread it out.

Yea, don't get me wrong, my example is not optimal for bodybuilding lol. I was just using that to show that, although you may be in a caloric surplus at the end of the day, it is possible to have burned body fat for energy at some point during that day. Everyone on the boards makes it seem like if you are in a caloric surplus at the end of the day, you must not have burned an ounce of body fat at any point during the day, and that just simply isn't true.

So this supports my theory that you can lose small amounts of fat while gaining small amounts of muscle (I think). Unless someone can prove the above paragraph wrong, I think we can agree that if you time it right, you can burn *some* body fat even though you eat at a slight surplus for the day. And then if you are in a surplus, eating clean foods with at least 1g of protein per lb/bodyweight, shouldn't your body use that to repair and grow from workouts in the gym? Thus putting on muscle?

[xGordonFreemanx_old]

OK, I stand corrected, it does. But not in the sense I meant.

Here's a scenario: Person has a caloric maintenance of 2000 cals/day. Today, they didn't eat anything all day, for whatever reason, until 9 pm. At that point, they ate 2500 cals. You're going to tell me that never, during any point in that day, did they burn an ounce of fat off their body, just because they consumed more than their maintenance calories during that day?

All I'm trying to say is that you can be in a caloric surplus for the day, but still burn fat at some point during that day. And if you time everything right, you could burn body fat daily, not replace it, and build muscle.

It's a good question. In theory it sounds like it would work that way, but the body is a complex piece of equipment. I was under the impression that the body is anticipatory of routine though. I guess it would work if you did that for a day here or there if you had to, but if you made that into some sort of regular occurrence wouldn't the body start hording fat?

[hockeyplaya13]

It's a good question. In theory it sounds like it would work that way, but the body is a complex piece of equipment. I was under the impression that the body is anticipatory of routine though. I guess it would work if you did that for a day here or there if you had to, but if you made that into some sort of regular occurrence wouldn't the body start hording fat?

Hmm. Maybe. I guess the body is pretty adaptive. I mean like I said, I think it "does" make sense, "in theory." But maybe the body would adapt and predict it? Hopefully someone with some sort of expertise can come in and fill me in.

[xGordonFreemanx_old]

Hmm. Maybe. I guess the body is pretty adaptive. I mean like I said, I think it "does" make sense, "in theory." But maybe the body would adapt and predict it? Hopefully someone with some sort of expertise can come in and fill me in.

I'm complete layman when it comes to this stuff. I agree, it would be nice to get an expert opinion on this.

[ECfromHTX]

I believe you can. Ive ate at a deficit and lost fat yet at the same time Ive become stronger and lifting heavier than ever before. If you ask me how I done it, I dont know, Ive only been in the gym for about 5 months! Prob noob gain.

I think it has to be possible too. Been working out for 4 months (on a little break now b/c of finals) and I was able to increase my lifts while I lost weight. Don't think you can develop huge muscles and lose weight at the same time but I think some type of development is possible as long as you eat right.

[GregTR]

I'm complete layman when it comes to this stuff. I agree, it would be nice to get an expert opinion on this.

If you read the linked article I posted above you'd see that even the "experts" don't agree on this stuff.

I hear a lot that fasted cardio (LISS) will cause catabolism and use muscle for fuel, but won't the consumption of BCAA's beforehand minimize this, and force the body to use fat as fuel? And while yes, your muscles still have glycogen to be burned for energy, doesn't the body switch to burning fat after about 20 minutes? No source, just read it on the forums somewhere. Won't the muscles run out of glycogen at some point, thus forcing the body to use either fat or muscle or fuel (but BCAA consumption minimizing catabolism, so fat becomes the primary fuel)?

I think you are correct that your body will switch to fat as fuel after 20 minutes of LISS. Or I should say fat as primary fuel. What the body will use as fuel also depends on body composition. Lean people tend to use more muscle while obese people use more fat. I have just read a study on starvation and the lean people/animals in the study actually not only lost muscle mass but organ mass as well during extreme starvation. I know this is not what w're talking about here but I thought I'd mention it as an interesting fact.

While you use mostly fat during LISS it is also proven that you will burn more fat per minute during high intensity cardio than you would with LISS. Let's say you burn 80% fat on LISS at a rate of 400 calories per hour. You would use 50% fat at 1000 calories per hour during intense cardio. This would mean that with LISS you'd burn 320 calories worth of fat while with intense cardio you'd burn 500 calories worth of fat. So it's beneficial to do higher intensity cardio even if it burns carbs than do LISS for weight loss. you'd be better eating more and doing higher intensity cardio than LISS and eating less. That is if optimizing fat loss per hour is your primary goal and you can stand the exhaustion that comes with it.

Since I'm concentrating on weight loss right now I'm not as concerned with muscle gain at the same time. But I will most definitely let you know if I start to gain muscle in the process.

Also the real question is what rate of fat loss are we talking about and what rate of concurrent muscle gains? If you plan on losing 1lbs of fat and gain 1lbs of muscle within a month I'm sure that is doable. Trying to lose 2lbs of fat a week and gain 0.5lbs of muscle the same week is probably impossible.

[chaser1712]

I heard that u can have a week of intense training eating above bmr followed by a week of less intense (more volume) training eating a little less than bmr. Then keep it going. This way u build muscle the 1st week by the 2nd ur metabolism is all reved up to shred fat off. Not positive yet if it's true but it makes sense to me and I'm about to try that.