Starting Strength Balance and Recovery Questions

[marcb80]

My friend (45) and I (30) began "Starting Strength" last week after a couple of months of getting accustomed to the Gym on machines

He is having problems balancing during squats, the back of his heals keep raising as he dips further into the squat, sometimes causing balance issues. Any advice on how to prevent or improve on this?

I am having issues recovering from what feels like sore ligaments, knees, and ankles post workout. I'd like to add some running cardio into my off days, but my legs hurt too much. Any advice on how to recover?

[peacesells]

I had similiar problems when starting to lowbar squat. To fix this I did a couple of things.

First I did a ton of practicing with no bar. Just practiced the "3rd World" squat (google it) whenever I had the chance. Watching tv etc.

Then while I was doing an actual barbell squat I lifted my toes to kinda force me to stay on my heels. The biggest thing though is your friend needs to make the mental connection that all his weight is on his heels and it stays there. If he is having trouble doing this with weight on the bar take the weight off till he has this down.

One mental cue for staying on your heels is to think that you are sitting in a chair when you squat. Your but goes back first, (break at the hip) then you descend. Shoving the knees out as you descend will keep you balanced.

[gbg]

You can also try box squats, great way to learn how to sit back. Work on flexibility as well.

As far as your aches and pains...well that's part of territory. Foam rolling and stretching on a regular basis. If it's more in your joints might want to try animal flex.

[drudixon]

My friend (45) and I (30) began "Starting Strength" last week after a couple of months of getting accustomed to the Gym on machines

He is having problems balancing during squats, the back of his heals keep raising as he dips further into the squat, sometimes causing balance issues. Any advice on how to prevent or improve on this?

I am having issues recovering from what feels like sore ligaments, knees, and ankles post workout. I'd like to add some running cardio into my off days, but my legs hurt too much. Any advice on how to recover?

Mark Rippetoe has some very good instructional videos on youtube, one I've linked below. The key IMO is to sit back. Pretend you've got the most massive ass ever, and shove it back as you descend. Also, squat barefoot, or in a flat soled shoe, this will help.

[paqua17]

Peace nice tip on 3rd world squat. I never read the article but am going to start incorporating it in my daily routines. I always look at my younger boys and tell my wife how jealous I am that they can get into that squat position.

OP - What kind of shoes is your friend using? Hopefully they are as flat as possible. I used to wear running shoes (with a heel) but have recently switched to Vibram Five Fingers and have noticed I do not rock onto my toes any longer if I concentrate on pushing my butt back first. This leads into my next question: does your friend start his squat by bending his knees first or pushing his hips back like he's trying to sit down? How high is the bar on his shoulders? The lower on his traps the easier it will be to shift weight backwards.

[skiboy1955]

I don't agree with Ripptoe on a lot of things and he starts out good talking about the squat but then goes into this thing of bending over and raising the hips more, wrong. If this happens then your core is weak and you need to work on that. Doing lifts to just complete them is dangerous and leads to bad form and technique once that happens you are setup for injuries.
I've trained and have been coached by Matt Gary and Sioux-z Hartwig-Gary both IPF competitors and Gary has coached the IPF USA mens and women teams. The setup in the video below is detailed and should be done as they state, it works and got me a squat over 600lbs raw (with belt and wraps).

[peacesells]

I don't agree with Ripptoe on a lot of things and he starts out good talking about the squat but then goes into this thing of bending over and raising the hips more, wrong.

It's an exaggerated cue. He only teaches this to get students to focus on driving their hips. The chest is supposed to come up at the same rate as well. So, there really isn't any bending over other than some forward lean due to the low bar position.

There are many ways to squat..just because you were taught by other pro's doesn't mean Rips way of doing them is wrong. They can both be right.

[mslman71]

My friend (45) and I (30) began "Starting Strength" last week after a couple of months of getting accustomed to the Gym on machines

He is having problems balancing during squats, the back of his heals keep raising as he dips further into the squat, sometimes causing balance issues. Any advice on how to prevent or improve on this?

I am having issues recovering from what feels like sore ligaments, knees, and ankles post workout. I'd like to add some running cardio into my off days, but my legs hurt too much. Any advice on how to recover?

If he is still having trouble after a few more tries you could always post a video and have the experts [here] give you guys some pointers.

[skiboy1955]

It's an exaggerated cue. He only teaches this to get students to focus on driving their hips. The chest is supposed to come up at the same rate as well. So, there really isn't any bending over other than some forward lean due to the low bar position.

There are many ways to squat..just because you were taught by other pro's doesn't mean Rips way of doing them is wrong. They can both be right.

I doubt it but Ripptoe is stating to bend and that is okay and for newbies (wrong). They (newbies) take that to heart and will continue to have bad form. Now that may only be part one of four parts but no one states that. And if the guy continues to "learn" forward he will continue to stay on his toes and have back issues soon.
You substitute bad form to just get the weight up!

The object is NOT to good morning the squat, any powerlifter will tell you that especially in trainig. Yes you should drive from the hips but the back should stay in position and not go down as the hips go up.


Keep you knees pushing out going down and up. Arch the upper (pinch the shoulder blades) and lower back (trying to bend the bar around you will help keep this form), start the squat by breaking at the hips NOT knees so you push the butt back first then bend the knees. Squatting is uncomfortable if done correctly and that is why most pople don't squat because it is uncomforable and then do it wrong and have all kinds of knee problems.

If you want to follow Ripptoe then do it and suffer the consequences.
Else follow the SSPT Matt Gary video and you will be better for it.

[drudixon]

I doubt it but Ripptoe is stating to bend and that is okay and for newbies (wrong). They (newbies) take that to heart and will continue to have bad form. Now that may only be part one of four parts but no one states that. And if the guy continues to "learn" forward he will continue to stay on his toes and have back issues soon.
You substitute bad form to just get the weight up!

The object is NOT to good morning the squat, any powerlifter will tell you that especially in trainig. Yes you should drive from the hips but the back should stay in position and not go down as the hips go up.


Keep you knees pushing out going down and up. Arch the upper (pinch the shoulder blades) and lower back (trying to bend the bar around you will help keep this form), start the squat by breaking at the hips NOT knees so you push the butt back first then bend the knees. Squatting is uncomfortable if done correctly and that is why most pople don't squat because it is uncomforable and then do it wrong and have all kinds of knee problems.

If you want to follow Ripptoe then do it and suffer the consequences.
Else follow the SSPT Matt Gary video and you will be better for it.

I'm no expert, to me though, if you push your chest forward, shoulders back, and keep your back flat, then you can't good morning it. I took the whole point of what he was saying was drive with the hips so you can recruit more hamstrings and glutes instead of just quads. That's what I took away from his vids.

[skiboy1955]

First of all you don't want to keep your back "flat" it should be arched at all times, once you go flat you will round the back and fall forward more hence the good morning.
I never said to use quads, squats don't use quads except to finsih the lift, it is all glutes and hamstrings, quads are a secondary movement in the squat.

[peacesells]

I think if you actually read his book instead of just watching his vids you will see that you are making some incorrect assumptions about the low bar squat.

I understand you don't like them and that is fine but when you are discussing the position from a point of ignorance (for lack of a better term) then you are really not doing the OP any favors.

For instance, the low bar position creates the forward lean to keep the bar centered on your heels therefore you won't be on your toes as you state. If the OP is on his toes then he is not doing it right. That is not the fault of the low bar squat but of the users technique.

[marcb80]

Thanks, this advice helped out a lot today

My friend widened his stance, focused on sitting, moved the bar back a bit, and raised his toes up a little - he was able to balance with his heels down. He still needs work but now he can balance.

Now about joint pain, someone mentioned Animal Flex, what is all your opinions on Animal Flex vs. USP Labs Super Cissus? The store I buy from recommends Super Cissus over Animal Flex.

I think I need to work on not lifting as much with my knees, going to watch through these videos again before next time.

[peacesells]

I take fish oil for my joints. Not sure about those other items.

[skiboy1955]

I never had any success with Cissus but fish oil taken 3 times a day 2 tabs and Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM tabets 3 times a day stopped all pain I had.

[jmcginn13]

I doubt it but Ripptoe is stating to bend and that is okay and for newbies (wrong). They (newbies) take that to heart and will continue to have bad form. Now that may only be part one of four parts but no one states that. And if the guy continues to "learn" forward he will continue to stay on his toes and have back issues soon.
You substitute bad form to just get the weight up!

The object is NOT to good morning the squat, any powerlifter will tell you that especially in trainig. Yes you should drive from the hips but the back should stay in position and not go down as the hips go up.


Keep you knees pushing out going down and up. Arch the upper (pinch the shoulder blades) and lower back (trying to bend the bar around you will help keep this form), start the squat by breaking at the hips NOT knees so you push the butt back first then bend the knees. Squatting is uncomfortable if done correctly and that is why most pople don't squat because it is uncomforable and then do it wrong and have all kinds of knee problems.

If you want to follow Ripptoe then do it and suffer the consequences.
Else follow the SSPT Matt Gary video and you will be better for it.

In the video Rippetoe says its ok at that phase of the training (with no bar on the back for the absolute beginner) for the back angle to change a little bit to help teach hip drive. He also says that it will stop once a bar is on the back. That's a LITTLE BIT of back angle change only when learning hip drive that STOPS once the bar is put on the back. No where have I seen him say its ok to good morning the lift to get the weight up.

I'm not sure what consequences I'll suffer by learning from him vs. your coach since all the details you listed below are exactly the same that Rippetoe teaches?

Knees out
Pinch should blades
Arch lower back
Break at the hips
Butt back
Chest up

Honestly I see no difference between the 2.

I like the details on the 3 steps and will try that tomorrow. Also I think I flare my elbows up to much and will try that point as well. Thanks for both of the videos.

[skiboy1955]

In the video Rippetoe says its ok at that phase of the training (with no bar on the back for the absolute beginner) for the back angle to change a little bit to help teach hip drive. He also says that it will stop once a bar is on the back. That's a LITTLE BIT of back angle change only when learning hip drive that STOPS once the bar is put on the back. No where have I seen him say its ok to good morning the lift to get the weight up.

I'm not sure what consequences I'll suffer by learning from him vs. your coach since all the details you listed below are exactly the same that Rippetoe teaches?

Knees out
Pinch should blades
Arch lower back
Break at the hips
Butt back
Chest up

Honestly I see no difference between the 2.

I like the details on the 3 steps and will try that tomorrow. Also I think I flare my elbows up to much and will try that point as well. Thanks for both of the videos.

The thing that just hits me wrong with that Rippetoe is that telling newbies to bend forward or lean forward is just wrong since "newbies" will do that and continue, I've seen it all too often.
You don't enforce bad habits to lean another movement in my book. Bending forward and lifting the hips is a bad habit that can lead to terrible injuries with weight and with out.
Good form is critical all the time.
I am a powerlifter and compete regularly in FULL power meets so see stuff like this just hits me worong. For the non powerlifter or beginner you may think it is okay but as you increase the weight you r bad habits will bite you in the butt.
The difference from a person just learning to a pro should be none in form.
Technique you develop yourself for your self but the form remains the same.

[peacesells]

The thing that just hits me wrong with that Rippetoe is that telling newbies to bend forward or lean forward is just wrong since "newbies" will do that and continue, I've seen it all too often.
You don't enforce bad habits to lean another movement in my book. Bending forward and lifting the hips is a bad habit that can lead to terrible injuries with weight and with out.
Good form is critical all the time.
I am a powerlifter and compete regularly in FULL power meets so see stuff like this just hits me worong. For the non powerlifter or beginner you may think it is okay but as you increase the weight you r bad habits will bite you in the butt.
The difference from a person just learning to a pro should be none in form.
Technique you develop yourself for your self but the form remains the same.

Have you read his book? He doesn't tell you to lean forward. He states that forward lean will happen automatically due to the low bar placement. This centers the weight.

You really aren't speaking from a position of having all the information. I suggest you read the 60 plus pages he uses to describe the squat before you critique what he is teaching.

[skiboy1955]

Have you read his book? He doesn't tell you to lean forward. He states that forward lean will happen automatically due to the low bar placement. This centers the weight.

You really aren't speaking from a position of having all the information. I suggest you read the 60 plus pages he uses to describe the squat before you critique what he is teaching.

Don't plan to read his book I have enough experience and coaching from others and my squat lifts prove that.
Perhaps the book is better but don't give partial info on videos but that state "It is okay to change the angle of the back". It isn't and he states so at the end but he is still telling you it is okay to learn that way. Wrong, if you learn wrong you do wrong. Like some said before box squats are the best way to learn but many of you have no box squat at your gym or own one like me.The box squat will teach you how to sit down and mantain that critical stiff back at ONE angle. It also teaches you how to use the hip flexors, glutes, hams and arch going down and going up.
Again I state telling some one to do a movement even though it is wrong just to get the feel is wrong, whether you have no weight or hundreds of pounds.

[peacesells]

Well, let's just hope the OP has the book and isn't going off the website and videos alone. There is a huge difference. The book fills in many important gaps. I know this from experience.

[SoulCatcher78]

I haven't tried fish oil or Animal flex but have been using Glucosamine Chondroitin (approx 1000mg/day) for a little over a year and it has taken care of my joint pains. YMMV

[ironsickel]

Mark Rippetoe has some very good instructional videos on youtube, one I've linked below. The key IMO is to sit back. Pretend you've got the most massive ass ever, and shove it back as you descend. Also, squat barefoot, or in a flat soled shoe, this will help.

The Flat soled shoe is HUGE. If you're squatting in basketball, tennis, or running shoes, you're probably not activating all of the required muscles such as the adductors and hamstrings.

A really good cheap shoe for lifting is the Converse Chuck Taylor's all star. 40 USD or so.
You'll feel when your hamstrings are activated and not just your quads. And weak/underdeveloped hams have been linked to increased ACL injuries.

[jmcginn13]

The thing that just hits me wrong with that Rippetoe is that telling newbies to bend forward or lean forward is just wrong since "newbies" will do that and continue, I've seen it all too often.
You don't enforce bad habits to lean another movement in my book. Bending forward and lifting the hips is a bad habit that can lead to terrible injuries with weight and with out.
Good form is critical all the time.
I am a powerlifter and compete regularly in FULL power meets so see stuff like this just hits me worong. For the non powerlifter or beginner you may think it is okay but as you increase the weight you r bad habits will bite you in the butt.
The difference from a person just learning to a pro should be none in form.
Technique you develop yourself for your self but the form remains the same.

You may be right. All I can say is I learned to squat from Starting Strength and some online videos and I never was under the impression that doing a good morning/bending forward was ok. When I compare what my ideal view of what a squat should be, its pretty much identical to the video you posted except for head position (looking up vs. a straight neck). If I could capture stills of her squating I could probably super impose them over the stills in Starting Strength and they would just about be a perfect match.

Page 18 of the book has a pic showing a good squat, shoulders rise at same rate as hips, back angle is maintained, and a bad squat where hips come up faster than shoulders. He clearly states several times to keep the back angle the same as you come up out of the hole.

[marcb80]

Reporting back

We finished another workout today

My friend did every lift with the heal on the ground, he found a great stance that he can balance and does not hurt his knees

I've improved my stance so my knees do not hurt so much, but I have asked a friend of mine who is a power-lifter to help me out with my squats on Friday's workout to help remove any knee pain. Those knee rolls still feel great, thanks for the suggestion. Got Cissus in today to combine with my glucosomine chlondrotine, will see how that helps. Yoga after lifting feels amazing also

Every lift had progression today and we are ready to progress every lift on Friday

[marcb80]

Thanks to all the advice, I've found out that I was using too much of the leg muscles on the front of my leg and knees, and I've figured out how to use the muscles in the rear of my leg and butt. Also deloaded weight to make sure the form is better. Knees do not hurt anymore!

[skiboy1955]

One thing about glucosomine chlondrotine, it is medical fact that glucosomine chlondrotine only stays in the body for 12 hours so if you are not at least 2 times a day ( prefer 3 times) it is not helping. So once a day is not enough.