Official Cellucor General Q&A Thread

**MikeCellucor** · 11-27-2009, 05:11 PM

This is the thread where you guys can ask anything you need to get general information on products, stacks, uses, etc...

There will be many informational threads on each product coming soon, and also contests and giveaways that will blow your mind!

A few things to address:

Cellucor as a "term" is now searchable and does not turn into " ******* "

A few things that have come up in PM, and in threads......

1.) If you search past threads you might not find a lot of information because of the above issue. Please feel free to use this thread or contact me directly.

2.) M5 is currently under reformulation. Needless to say, those of you who have used it, and follow Cellucor know when we reformulate we always come through BIG! I am happy to say M5 is going to make some real noise. Sampling and beta testing coming soon! This stuff is going to blow your mind! Pumps, focus, strength, and major lean mass gains...its all addressed in this revamp!

3.) Anyone who has used Cellucor products please feel free to write up a review so others can be more informed on the products. This site thrives on user feedback, and the only way we can improve is to hear that feedback. This in turn allows us to keep cranking out some of the best damn supps on the market!

4.) P6 black is GONE! Sorry, if you have questions feel free to contact me directly. We do not sell, market, or push P6 black. What you find in the superstore is P6 extreme ( aka P6 red). It's a natural T-booster, and one of the most complete formulas ever put out.

Our feedback has been outstanding around the country, and I am really glad to offer an amazing Test Booster that hits every angle, and helps to block related side effects of having all that nice new jacked up T in your body!! P6 extreme is very effective in a PCT setting, and stay tuned for details on how to capitalize on that. So, no more crying about P6 black being gone. I promised I complained enough for all of us. =-)

**MBSowards** · 11-27-2009, 05:35 PM

Welcome back. I know when I was trying to get that kit the guy I was talking to say that Cellucor normally doesn't give anything away for free, does that mean that you won't be able to offer any sponsored log opportunities here?

**MikeCellucor** · 11-27-2009, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by MBSowards

Welcome back. I know when I was trying to get that kit the guy I was talking to say that Cellucor normally doesn't give anything away for free, does that mean that you won't be able to offer any sponsored log opportunities here?

We are going to be doing some really cool giveaways, etc...

I'll shoot you a PM. I know you are a good broh on this site, and I don't forget the good people. There will def. be some logs, and reviews. I want people to really see/feel the value and quality, and not just seeing the words coming from me or any other Cellucor rep.

**MikeCellucor** · 11-27-2009, 11:26 PM

A few logs that are posted are below, for those in a rush. There are no recent logs because of the issue with the term Cellucor. Same Gen2 formulas though. Jan 2010 will offer new versions of M5 and Nzero, etc... so these reviews are still valid. At the time we did not sell on bb.com though, and that was the major issue in past threads

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=112841601
http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/jjd6290/

Here is Steve P. One of our sponsored athletes. Pro Natural BB'r and just a freak of nature. Seeing what Cellucor does for him just blows my mind.

In his profile pic section he has his 10 weeks Muscle Growth pics.

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/cementhead0669/

Feel free to contact him on tips for shows, show prep, etc...He also judges/ head judges shows, etc...

Ironically, another Steve P who knows a thing or two about Cellucor

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/stevep78/ ( Steve does my diets....see my progress pics for some INSANE results from the mixture of Fitnessoynters.com and Cellucor stacked!!)

Our Official Sponsored Athlete Colton Leonard is also on the site, and has been for a long while.

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/Weight_Room_Junkie/

Lastly, for those really interested just hit up my bodyspace page. I test our products, and push myself extremely hard to see what our stuff can really do. The guys above me are some of the best resources I have, and also give us great feedback in product development. I understand I work for Cellucor so I am biased, but my results speak for themselves. It's how I can wake up and do my job.

**WildBill0771** · 11-28-2009, 12:00 AM

Posting the same thing I posted in the other thread because I believe these products if used for long enough will give you really great results, I'd buy some but I'm strapped for cash supporting my parents.

"I have tested these products. I got a ****-ton of free samples from Matt Berger on ********. He added me as a friend, posted if anyone wanted free samples and I replied. They sent A LOT of free samples.

The wallet is pretty tight right now but I have tried the N0 N-Zero Extreme and can say it gave me a HUGE boost during my workouts. The M5 Extreme also gave me a huge boost in energy and strength gains. The D4 Thermal Shock and the D4 Extreme suppressed my appetite all day with every pack I used. I seriously had too force myself to eat.

They sent me 4 packs of each so this company really does let you try before you buy. They don't putz around with 1 sample. You get atleast 3-4 days worth to see if you like the product or not.

If you have the money I would definetley give this company a try, fellas."

**MikeCellucor** · 11-28-2009, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by WildBill0771

Posting the same thing I posted in the other thread because I believe these products if used for long enough will give you really great results, I'd buy some but I'm strapped for cash supporting my parents.

"I have tested these products. I got a ****-ton of free samples from Matt Berger on ********. He added me as a friend, posted if anyone wanted free samples and I replied. They sent A LOT of free samples.

The wallet is pretty tight right now but I have tried the N0 N-Zero Extreme and can say it gave me a HUGE boost during my workouts. The M5 Extreme also gave me a huge boost in energy and strength gains. The D4 Thermal Shock and the D4 Extreme suppressed my appetite all day with every pack I used. I seriously had too force myself to eat.

They sent me 4 packs of each so this company really does let you try before you buy. They don't putz around with 1 sample. You get atleast 3-4 days worth to see if you like the product or not.

If you have the money I would definetley give this company a try, fellas."

Matt is a great guy. Thanks for the feedback. That Thermal Shock gets me everytime. I forget to eat for 4-6 hours at a clip. lol

**tatteredsaint** · 11-28-2009, 06:09 AM

welcome to the site , I've been curious about your products they look to be of good quality but in all honesty they are a lil high in the price range for me normally

**MikeCellucor** · 11-28-2009, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by tatteredsaint

welcome to the site , I've been curious about your products they look to be of good quality but in all honesty they are a lil high in the price range for me normally

Thanks for the welcome. Much appreciated.

We are always striving to make our products more valuable. Either by consistently updating formulas based on new findings/research, and or increasing servings, etc...

One aspect of the industry is based on volume. When you constantly update, and change ingredients ( for the better in our case) sometimes you lose your "volume" advantage with the manufacturers. Let's face it if we had one formula and ran a million units...cost goes way down. The major issue though is the quality of ingredient sometimes is compromised just because high end extracts, and other ingredients simply cannot be produced at that volume by just anyone.

By running smaller batches it allows us to stay at the top of our game, and over time say with M5 and P6 we are finding ways to bring better value and products to the table. It's taking a long time. Even longer than I have been with Cellucor, but it's happening much faster, and I am always pushing for better value to our customers. Just have to understand we are a bit different than most other companies.

There will be a lot of this going on in 2010.

M5 and Nzero will be updated. Servings and ingredient profiles will take a big step up from the current version, eventhough we get great feedback now. I'm really happy about this.

We already went to 120 caps on P6 extreme from 100 caps, and we dropped the price 10 bucks.

We actually drop almost all our prices around 10% just last month. The guys at homeoffice worked REALLY hard to accomplish this before our launch with bb.com. I'll be visiting there soon, and I'm sure I'll have even more details to come.

In all honesty, when you look at our products they need to be looked at as 3-4 separate products combined.

Working in retail for 8 years ( managing a 2 million dollar store for 2 years) I always see people buy $150-200 dollar stacks. Usually 3-4 items. We just simplified it to 1 bottle, but we are in a day, and age where if you spend more than 40 bucks, and don't have a bag full of stuff we feel cheated.

In reality, we need to focus on RESULTS. Like I have said in other posts. If you are not gaining, leaning out, improving in strength, speed, or power....then something is wrong.

This is what I hope to really drive into everyone's mind with Cellucor.

The end result...justifies the means. ( In latin to be COOL! lol "Exitus acta probat")

**fp8950** · 11-28-2009, 04:31 PM

Welcome back.

Did you guys discontinue the D4 thermal shock extreme? Because I see the D4 extreme and I see the D4 thermal shock, but do not see the D4 thermal shock extreme. I took that a while back and it was and still is the strongest energy/fat burner I've used. I lost alot of weight running just one bottle of it. Was very impressed but it was also very expensive.

**MikeCellucor** · 11-28-2009, 04:48 PM

D4 thermal shock extreme is D4 thermal shock =-)

D4 extreme is the more mild version, and also more cost effective. Its basically jitter free and crash free.

D4 Thermal Shock is the formala that will kick you arse!! lol

We dropped our prices 10% on the D4 line so that should make you happy.

Also, I doubt you used 4 a day ( its is possible) The bottle should last at least 6 weeks. That puts it right on par with everyone else, and if you only use 2 a day...that actually makes it one of the most powerful and cost effective on the market. Thats a 60 day supply. 35 bucks a month for the strongest stim on the market =-)

**fp8950** · 11-28-2009, 04:56 PM

I dosed the d4 thermal shock extreme at 3 a day usually. 8am noon and 3:30pm.

I occasionally dosed at 4 a day. But that was when I was just mixing it up as to not let my body get used to a specific dose at a certain time.

But I'll give you credit it worked phenomenally well. I lost about 20lbs over the course of that bottle. I have not tried it since the name change though.

I would defnitely be interested in samples of your other products if/when they come available.

**Prototyp3** · 11-28-2009, 05:01 PM

I still don't understand why someone would buy Cellucor when they can get the same, if not better results, types of products (and better formulated products), etc, for a much lower price. I mean I can see how some of the Cellucor line is interesting, and some stuff I would definitely like to try. I just can't justify paying the price when I know there's only so much a natty product can do, and there's other products that already do it without costing an insane amount. A lot of people will be turned off by the high initial numbers, even if your products are "worth it". With that said, I definitely like the profiles on some of them, and there are some things that.. "stand out", though nothing I would say is really groundbreaking for a supplement.

Perhaps you guys are following the marketing idea of "high priced = exclusive = I'm special for owning it", and it's obviously working as you continue to talk about repeat sales, etc. Then theres those who just have money to blow on supps (not a lot of us sadly), who I'm sure are more then happy to pay since money probabaly isn't a large issue to them. I once went to a restaurant with a company, luckily paid for, but was a very nice steak house. $80 dollars a plate, honestly the food wasn't anything special. Steak, vegetables, potatoes.. Why spend $80 dollars a plate, when I can go to Outback and get the same meal for $20-$25? I'm getting the same stuff, I just don't get to say I ate at "Expensiveplace_01". Regardless, I'm still satisfied and the end result is the same, except at Outback I have $60 more dollars to go spend somewhere else and get some additional satisfaction with another purchase due to saving money in the first place.

You can claim it's due to "novel ingredients" or "high quality production" and things like that, but there's other companies already doing these things, and again, with lower prices. Thermolife has quite a few brand new things (see: New E-bol with Turk, T. Alatus, Creatine Nitrate) on the market, test their products twice I believe, and even they are known to be on the more "pricey side", yet you guys are still more expensive. Perhaps your pre-workout really is an awesome product, mind blowing pumps and crazy focus. Is it really going to be that much more effective, that someone should spend quite a bit more then settling for something like Vengeance, White Flood or Clearshot Concentrate?

I've read over your other thread where you say we should look at your products as more then just 1 product as you've put other things in each, but they still fall into the same "categories" and will end up doing the same as other [good] products in that category do (such as your test booster or recovery product, I believe those were your examples). I honestly think that the high price (especially on bb.com where everyone has more then enough reviews to check out) is going to be an obstacle for your success. Spending the amount of money your asking is a bit much, especially if the effects can be obtained cheaper, although the person would be passing up some really pretty metal cans and shiny labels.

Basically my question is, why should we buy your stuff? Your products aren't PHs/DSs, and most of the stuff in your products isn't really "special" or "unique". There's only so much an all natural product can do, why should we spend so much more when we can get the same effects (that will only be so good no matter how much it cost) at a different place for far less money. Not trying to stir anything up, and I hope this post doesn't come off as "aggressive" or anything like that.

**MikeCellucor** · 11-28-2009, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Prototyp3

Basically my question is, why should we buy your stuff? Your products aren't PHs/DSs, and most of the stuff in your products isn't really "special" or "unique". There's only so much an all natural product can do, why should we spend so much more when we can get the same effects (that will only be so good no matter how much it cost) at a different place for far less money. Not trying to stir anything up, and I hope this post doesn't come off as "aggressive" or anything like that.

First off WOW! Nice post, lol. Very valid arguments, and I understand your reasoning. It is my job to inform and educate. This is literally the 2nd day we have been uncensored, and the 6th day in the store. The information will come very soon, and the feedback and reviews from the giveaways and samples will speak very loudly. I have no doubt there.

To address your concerns as far as our recovery product "R3" and our Natural Test booster "P6 extreme" I think you really are missing the full spectrum. The synergy of ingredients. R3 is one of the very few actual recovery products on the market. Glutamine does not suffice, IMO. Recovery relies on the immune system. I am going to go ahead and assume ( which can be dangerous) that you know all about the immune factors and cortisol response post intense workouts, etc...Since you seem to be very confident in your ideas on recovery and hormonal optimizers.

Simply if you do not recover and heal/generate connective tissue and muscle tissue rapidly you can overtrain, lose out on gains, and or get hurt. I literally can increase my volume 30% while taking R3. I've been taking it for 1.5 years now, and I recently went 4 weeks without it. I lost about 5 lbs, and actually got sick. I never get sick since R3 came into my life. The most underated supp in the industry, IMO.

Even all the hard gainers. Who run around eating Big Macs and weight gainers. I gained more than 52lbs lean since feb 08, and I never ate more than 4000 calories at 6'6" and 255-280. My Genetic limit seems to be around 285 or so....not really a fan of being that heavy for any reason. I live on the fourth floor!!! lol

I am a hard gainer. Simply if you address the proper systems in the body you can accomplish amazing results. Most products go for hype, and magic 1 shot ingredients. In reality you need to address the body as a whole. Nitric Oxide for example requires Ornithine in it later cycle. Almost no one uses it, because its both expensive, and thought of as a GH secretagogue. It extends the pump and fullness well beyond the work. Even into the next day.

My future article/post will consist of 3 categories. Muscular Hydration, Hormonal Optimization, and Recovery/Immune Health. This is why people use PH and AAS. To take these levels to optimal or super physiological levels. Ironically though...most PH or AAS weaken the immune system and or the collagen synthesis in the body. So, you grow, but not evenly, or ideally to remain injury free, or keep the majority of gains in PCT( a weakened state). Most people gain 10-15lbs on a PH then lose half. I have kept every single pound. I hope to share this with everyone. I need to reference and cite the article though, or Ill get murdered for it! lol

Also another major issue is that we legally have to use prop blends to keep from having our formulas stolen or released by other companies. Currently, there are 3 companies who ingredient for ingredient copied our formulas, but uses much lower quality raws. I am working hard to make certain ingredient amounts available for the consumers, but that will be after the re-release of M5 and Nzero, and require label updates. All in good time. Its on the checklist though. ( a key issue here is say Tribulus..We use a 98% extract for Protodioscin. Another company who in retail stores competes with us uses a 40% saponin extract which is proven uneffective, yet they claim to be superior. That is what you call a shill.)

If you want a basic response. Lets talk cars. You can buy a Kia and get from point A to B, or you can buy a Porsche. Obviously, the costs are way different. Obvious there is a benefit to buying a higher end sports car, and the pay off is looking better, and getting places faster. Some people will never think they can afford the porsche, mercedes, BMW...whatever you choose, and stick with the Kia, and get to there job, and be happy, and feel great. Others want the best...the fastest, and most insane experience possible.

We are here for the people who want RESULTS like they have never experienced. If you are still basing your products off " feel" then its time to move on to RESULTS. The measuring tape...the calipers...the numbers in the weight room. That is where we come from.

Personally, getting cracked out on stims is very counterproductive for most people. Cortisol goes up 40+% more, and you can even cause Adrenal Fatigue or Burnout which causes elevated stress hormones, and lower Test levels. This is why we have the reputation around the world that we do with athletes especially. I know we have to earn it here, but this is the start, and I am the tip of the spear to make it happen.

Thanks for your time and energy, and Im going to have to ask no more than 500 words in a reply =-) jk

**marcodeniro** · 11-28-2009, 06:07 PM

Its been awhile,
R3 is an awesome product I ran two cans of it over the summer with Mans Blueprint. Awesome gains I have twocans of p6 red I will be taking soon,
Funny story~I located two p6 black cans at a small hick town vitamin shop, they had it all summer and two weeks before I wnt back to get it (last week) they sold both

Oh well!
I am apprehensive on taking the thermal shock as I need my appetite for teh gains

**damnglass** · 11-28-2009, 06:14 PM

I wont need to do a log for you,already tried 6 or so of your products when i was in a severe cal deficit(near a eating disorder),no fats in my diet(under 10 grams a day) what so ever, in 30 degree heat running for over 2 hours,that and a 1 hour weight routine.Im more of a fan of the fat loss stack as when i used some of your muscle builders i was still dieting(malnourished) so i cant really comment on them.For me the cost isnt important as the results,ive seen cheaper supps and had ingridient profiles that were more up front,but none worked as well at cellucor(serious)only 1 product ever got me any results and that was on a bulk with a ph(havoc)the other 20 or so stacks i have tried in 3 years have never come close.

**MikeCellucor** · 11-28-2009, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by marcodeniro

Its been awhile,
R3 is an awesome product I ran two cans of it over the summer with Mans Blueprint. Awesome gains I have twocans of p6 red I will be taking soon,
Funny story~I located two p6 black cans at a small hick town vitamin shop, they had it all summer and two weeks before I wnt back to get it (last week) they sold both

Oh well!
I am apprehensive on taking the thermal shock as I need my appetite for teh gains

R3 + Man's Blueprint is a cool combo. Ive wanted to try it as well. Agmatine seems really cool.

If you want to gain lean give Nzero a try ( all about lean mass gains). Never use a uber strong thermo for a lean bulk. Fish Oils ( Ws1 in our case), and lower stim based pre-workouts. You can take Nzero and add in some Mag Chelate Creatine lets say. That would be a budget combo as compared to M5 and Nzero.

Yea, I know some P6 black knock off's if you are hell bent on it, but honestly I truly believe over the time of a Cycle + PCT + Time off you can achieve the same gains natural as running a PH cycle. Just have to get over wanting it all NOW! lol.

4lbs a month is 48lbs in a year. Even 2 lbs a month is a legit gain in my eyes.

I proved this two fold with 32lbs on 32 weeks. Kept every damn ounce. then I went and ran a PH cycle and got up to 289 or so....wound up 265 and 7% or so for the summer. Felt nice.

**MikeCellucor** · 11-28-2009, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by damnglass

I wont need to do a log for you,already tried 6 or so of your products when i was in a severe cal deficit(near a eating disorder),no fats in my diet(under 10 grams a day) what so ever, in 30 degree heat running for over 2 hours,that and a 1 hour weight routine.Im more of a fan of the fat loss stack as when i used some of your muscle builders i was still dieting(malnourished) so i cant really comment on them.For me the cost isnt important as the results,ive seen cheaper supps and had ingridient profiles that were more up front,but none worked as well at cellucor(serious)only 1 product ever got me any results and that was on a bulk with a ph(havoc)the other 20 or so stacks i have tried in 3 years have never come close.

Well I hope your health is back to 100%, and I know a few people male and female who dealt with similar things.

Really appreciate your feedback. You convey the message I am trying to send. Keep an eye out for the promotional stuff. PM me when it comes out, and we'll talk about some lean mass!! hehe

PH unfortunately come at a price. They mess with HPTA ( natural T production), and also in PCT cortisol is a monster for most. PH are cheap, but add in cycle support, and a great PCT, and you are looking at around the same prices as doing it natural. It just takes longer, and you don't get the instant gratification. I honestly believe using our Muscle Growth kits for PCT is a badass idea. Its what I did. I also used a SERM, but I know about a 1000 people who still dont know what a SERM is, and or know where to find them. 11-oxo bridge is also AWESOME!!

I've been preaching non-PH use for about a year now, and even before we discontinued P6black ( considered by some one of the best PH ever). I just know there time is limited, and that most people do not have the means to do a proper cycle. Either monetarily or the resolve to research and plan a proper run. ( how many lame PH threads a day on here?? lol)

**MJAffliction** · 11-28-2009, 07:55 PM

I was pessimistic in the first thread but you seem like a straight forward guy. I look forward to at least getting some samples (if i'm not allowed the possibility to log in the future).

I'm very intrigued by the supplements and interested in learning more about them but as a college student with bills to pay, I don't know if I'm willing to budget it.

I look forward to future promotions. Best of luck, Cellucor. I'll be tuning in.

**marcodeniro** · 11-28-2009, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by MikeCellucor

R3 + Man's Blueprint is a cool combo. Ive wanted to try it as well. Agmatine seems really cool.

If you want to gain lean give Nzero a try ( all about lean mass gains). Never use a uber strong thermo for a lean bulk. Fish Oils ( Ws1 in our case), and lower stim based pre-workouts. You can take Nzero and add in some Mag Chelate Creatine lets say. That would be a budget combo as compared to M5 and Nzero.

Yea, I know some P6 black knock off's if you are hell bent on it, but honestly I truly believe over the time of a Cycle + PCT + Time off you can achieve the same gains natural as running a PH cycle. Just have to get over wanting it all NOW! lol.

4lbs a month is 48lbs in a year. Even 2 lbs a month is a legit gain in my eyes.

I proved this two fold with 32lbs on 32 weeks. Kept every damn ounce. then I went and ran a PH cycle and got up to 289 or so....wound up 265 and 7% or so for the summer. Felt nice.

Blueprint is one of my favorite supplements. r3 and blueprint together I was able to work a muscle group twice a week and had excellent pumps and fullness, recovery aspects from both products . I will just keep doing the natty way for right now! I have p6 red extreme which I am going to give a try here pretty soon. I'll get with you later on that. Once again nice to see you again. Liking the knowledge ya droppin

**Ersio** · 11-28-2009, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by fp8950

I dosed the d4 thermal shock extreme at 3 a day usually. 8am noon and 3:30pm.

I occasionally dosed at 4 a day. But that was when I was just mixing it up as to not let my body get used to a specific dose at a certain time.

But I'll give you credit it worked phenomenally well. I lost about 20lbs over the course of that bottle. I have not tried it since the name change though.

I would defnitely be interested in samples of your other products if/when they come available.

wow! I am going to be on lookout for samples for this.. sounds right up my alley!

**Prototyp3** · 11-28-2009, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by MikeCellucor

If you want a basic response. Lets talk cars. You can buy a Kia and get from point A to B, or you can buy a Porsche. Obviously, the costs are way different. Obvious there is a benefit to buying a higher end sports car, and the pay off is looking better, and getting places faster. Some people will never think they can afford the porsche, mercedes, BMW...whatever you choose, and stick with the Kia, and get to there job, and be happy, and feel great. Others want the best...the fastest, and most insane experience possible.

Thanks for your time and energy, and Im going to have to ask no more than 500 words in a reply =-) jk

A good analogy, but in this case, no one else besides me is seeing my supplements, or seeing me take them. In your case the cars help as a status symbol, something supplements are far from. In the end, the result (in the car example) is getting to work or places and looking better with your transportation, in the end when you get there, you're still you no matter which car you used. Same with the supplements, as far as natural things go, you're results can only be so great and theres products producing those results already. I don't need to have the fancy supps to get them, and no one else will know what I used either, so the status symbol appeal is lost.

Regardless, that really is beside the point. Your claim is that the extra price is due to higher quality and better results, something I can't argue as I haven't used your products nor have I read anything about those who have, this is all speculation from simply looking at the product pages. I'm going to try not to criticize (and draw out mini essay responses) until we see some logs up here and compare real results to some already established (and lower prices) products to see if the extra cost is justified.

Your product ingriedient quality comparisons to your competitors and what not is a good show of how you guys are striving to be top notch, and it does seem like you are, but here on bb.com there's already other companies right up there that are extremely strict on quality control. Without naming any, some of these companies are higher priced compared to others in the category and certainly considered worth it from what their products have shown, but even those still fall priced under your unproven stuff. Again, we'll just wait and see some logs here hopefully.

The results you claim from using this Cellucor stuff alone seems a bit.. extreme? Not sure exactly, but I highly doubt all of that weight was lean muscle, and even still, thats quite a bit for some all natty products. I'll also definitely wait to read the other posts you have as it seems you have interesting stuff to say, though how much of it I'll actually understand we'll see, ha

.

**fp8950** · 11-29-2009, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by ersio

wow! I am going to be on lookout for samples for this.. sounds right up my alley!

Yea it is a great product hopefully ya can get your hands on a sample.

It must also be noted I used it with strict diet and cardio. Plus I was a little soft in the midsection to begin with haha.

**MikeCellucor** · 11-29-2009, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Prototyp3

A good analogy, but in this case, no one else besides me is seeing my supplements, or seeing me take them. In your case the cars help as a status symbol, something supplements are far from. In the end, the result (in the car example) is getting to work or places and looking better with your transportation, in the end when you get there, you're still you no matter which car you used. Same with the supplements, as far as natural things go, you're results can only be so great and theres products producing those results already. I don't need to have the fancy supps to get them, and no one else will know what I used either, so the status symbol appeal is lost.

Regardless, that really is beside the point. Your claim is that the extra price is due to higher quality and better results, something I can't argue as I haven't used your products nor have I read anything about those who have, this is all speculation from simply looking at the product pages. I'm going to try not to criticize (and draw out mini essay responses) until we see some logs up here and compare real results to some already established (and lower prices) products to see if the extra cost is justified.

Your product ingriedient quality comparisons to your competitors and what not is a good show of how you guys are striving to be top notch, and it does seem like you are, but here on bb.com there's already other companies right up there that are extremely strict on quality control. Without naming any, some of these companies are higher priced compared to others in the category and certainly considered worth it from what their products have shown, but even those still fall priced under your unproven stuff. Again, we'll just wait and see some logs here hopefully.

The results you claim from using this Cellucor stuff alone seems a bit.. extreme? Not sure exactly, but I highly doubt all of that weight was lean muscle, and even still, thats quite a bit for some all natty products. I'll also definitely wait to read the other posts you have as it seems you have interesting stuff to say, though how much of it I'll actually understand we'll see, ha

.

I absolutely respect your position, and after I release some of the product info posts, and some of my personal ideas on things you will be in a much better position to argue my points, because you will have the knowledge and viewpoint that I have to compare to your own. Your knowledge about my product is skewed by the price first and foremost. That is always the last factor in my opinion. Very important, but money should be last on the list. Especially, if you are in a financial burden. Seems counterintuitive, but money as a filter at the end really make decision a lot easier. You still get the whole scope of information, and options. You don't limit yourself right up front.

Lastly, I think you are dismissing the ingredients that you are aware of, and or the difference in certain extraction, etc... That is partially our fault, because we are using prop blends. Again, we do this because we have already been met with three legal issues of people ripping off our formulas, and using much lower grade raws to bring the prices down for themselves. Not going to name names, or ride on that. This is the most competitive industry I know of, and people will do anything to make a dollar. Even run their company into the ground, then start a new one....rinse and repeat. =-)

I don't even try to compare our products with other companies. We use a lot of very well known ingredients, but its the unknown ones that people just pass over, and dismiss them. All of the sudden they have no value if no one ever saw them in a magazine or in 10 different products. Lets just say a tribulus standardized for saponins and a tribulus standardized for protodioscin are apples and oranges. Nevermind, the actaul extraction process, and concentration. I'll take a protodioscin extract over a saponin extract any day of the week. We happen to use everything in the upper 90% ( 98 and 99 Trib.longjack I do believe in the current version of P6). A direct competitor to us ( not on the site) uses a 40% extract...mixed with a 20% and 10% extract. That right there is a shill. Ironically, a full dose of Trib/longjack is just icing on the cake for our T-boosters. Many products are comparably built on them.

It's really the case where I go out, and research each ingredient I do not know. I did that at my store. I'd go through all new products, and write down ingredients I did not know about. I then took the time to research them, and understand their use and physiology.

I appreciate your patience, and restraint to wait for user feedback, and I would be more than happy to address any questions in any length you have. It's just very hard to have an effective debate when all the information is not out on the table. It is also unfair to assume our products lack quality or are comparable to other companies unless you have the skillset to breakdown each ingredient, and or you have formulated products. That burden to prove we are higher quality or our value is justified is mine, and mine alone. I will be doing that.

(not aimed specifically at anyone person) Just remember this is the 3rd day we have been uncensored, and the 7th day we are live in the store. We were set to launch this week not last, so I am a little behind on the articles. I 'm just caught up in a lot of the excitement over the release. We also got word we sold very well this week. Especially our P6 at $119. so the no one please assume we will not sell product at our prices when we already have oustanding feedback from users on site ( not enough yet I know) and in the retail world ( more than enough), and also we have already been selling product. I think that is slightly arrogant unless you work for, and or own a successful supp company. I happily take criticism on the business model from business oriented people. It would be like me telling you have a good idea, but are going to fail. Thats just not very zen, lol.

As far as value and products I welcome all to give feedback. I really do enjoy reading and replying. It only helps me to build a stronger brand and product to help more people achieve their goals.

I assure you I will not try to give you tips and pointers on boxing/mma or such because I have very little experience. I may have an opinion on a fighter, but I am long ways away from coaching the sport, lol. I however can help drastically in the recovery/endurance realm. Even reaction time, and responsiveness. Technique...I know my place though. =-)

**MikeCellucor** · 11-29-2009, 11:10 AM

To the other above posts. I can't wait to get things rolling. Going to be a really good time. Your feedback upfront has been amazing, and I really hope as many people as possible get to try other products they have not, and or try Cellucor for the first time.

**RonShipman** · 11-29-2009, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by MikeCellucor

First off WOW! Nice post, lol. Very valid arguments, and I understand your reasoning. It is my job to inform and educate. This is literally the 2nd day we have been uncensored, and the 6th day in the store. The information will come very soon, and the feedback and reviews from the giveaways and samples will speak very loudly. I have no doubt there.

To address your concerns as far as our recovery product "R3" and our Natural Test booster "P6 extreme" I think you really are missing the full spectrum. The synergy of ingredients. R3 is one of the very few actual recovery products on the market. Glutamine does not suffice, IMO. Recovery relies on the immune system. I am going to go ahead and assume ( which can be dangerous) that you know all about the immune factors and cortisol response post intense workouts, etc...Since you seem to be very confident in your ideas on recovery and hormonal optimizers.

Simply if you do not recover and heal/generate connective tissue and muscle tissue rapidly you can overtrain, lose out on gains, and or get hurt. I literally can increase my volume 30% while taking R3. I've been taking it for 1.5 years now, and I recently went 4 weeks without it. I lost about 5 lbs, and actually got sick. I never get sick since R3 came into my life. The most underated supp in the industry, IMO.

Even all the hard gainers. Who run around eating Big Macs and weight gainers. I gained more than 52lbs lean since feb 08, and I never ate more than 4000 calories at 6'6" and 255-280. My Genetic limit seems to be around 285 or so....not really a fan of being that heavy for any reason. I live on the fourth floor!!! lol

I am a hard gainer. Simply if you address the proper systems in the body you can accomplish amazing results. Most products go for hype, and magic 1 shot ingredients. In reality you need to address the body as a whole. Nitric Oxide for example requires Ornithine in it later cycle. Almost no one uses it, because its both expensive, and thought of as a GH secretagogue. It extends the pump and fullness well beyond the work. Even into the next day.

My future article/post will consist of 3 categories. Muscular Hydration, Hormonal Optimization, and Recovery/Immune Health. This is why people use PH and AAS. To take these levels to optimal or super physiological levels. Ironically though...most PH or AAS weaken the immune system and or the collagen synthesis in the body. So, you grow, but not evenly, or ideally to remain injury free, or keep the majority of gains in PCT( a weakened state). Most people gain 10-15lbs on a PH then lose half. I have kept every single pound. I hope to share this with everyone. I need to reference and cite the article though, or Ill get murdered for it! lol

Also another major issue is that we legally have to use prop blends to keep from having our formulas stolen or released by other companies. Currently, there are 3 companies who ingredient for ingredient copied our formulas, but uses much lower quality raws. I am working hard to make certain ingredient amounts available for the consumers, but that will be after the re-release of M5 and Nzero, and require label updates. All in good time. Its on the checklist though. ( a key issue here is say Tribulus..We use a 98% extract for Protodioscin. Another company who in retail stores competes with us uses a 40% saponin extract which is proven uneffective, yet they claim to be superior. That is what you call a shill.)

If you want a basic response. Lets talk cars. You can buy a Kia and get from point A to B, or you can buy a Porsche. Obviously, the costs are way different. Obvious there is a benefit to buying a higher end sports car, and the pay off is looking better, and getting places faster. Some people will never think they can afford the porsche, mercedes, BMW...whatever you choose, and stick with the Kia, and get to there job, and be happy, and feel great. Others want the best...the fastest, and most insane experience possible.

We are here for the people who want RESULTS like they have never experienced. If you are still basing your products off " feel" then its time to move on to RESULTS. The measuring tape...the calipers...the numbers in the weight room. That is where we come from.

Personally, getting cracked out on stims is very counterproductive for most people. Cortisol goes up 40+% more, and you can even cause Adrenal Fatigue or Burnout which causes elevated stress hormones, and lower Test levels. This is why we have the reputation around the world that we do with athletes especially. I know we have to earn it here, but this is the start, and I am the tip of the spear to make it happen.

Thanks for your time and energy, and Im going to have to ask no more than 500 words in a reply =-) jk

I can get around just as quick as a guy in a porsche in my american made 4 cyl 4 door seden the speed limit only goes so high and if you break that long enough and to many times you will lose your license or get killed or kill somebody. The porsche looks better I agree, but that's the car just like a fancy bottle it might look better but it's what's on the inside is what counts most porsches have douche bags inside. The average guy cannot afford a porsche or $70 for a supplement. We all can afford to train hard take our protein get big and use our everyday Pontaic G6 and Ford Taurus to get to work to get the bills paid though.

Ornithine hardly anybody uses because it's expensive??? Here are some products with Ornithine and some are nice doses... I will start off by saying white flood, has both high dose Arginine and Ornithine....

**Prototyp3** · 11-29-2009, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by MikeCellucor

I appreciate your patience, and restraint to wait for user feedback, and I would be more than happy to address any questions in any length you have. It's just very hard to have an effective debate when all the information is not out on the table. It is also unfair to assume our products lack quality or are comparable to other companies unless you have the skillset to breakdown each ingredient, and or you have formulated products. That burden to prove we are higher quality or our value is justified is mine, and mine alone. I will be doing that.

Between this topic and PM's you've been plenty helpful and informative.

Now all that's left is to let the results speak for themselves. Looking forward to seeing the real world results after you guys worked to get things straightened out with bb.com and getting your products in the store.

**MikeCellucor** · 11-29-2009, 01:57 PM

Nice try. Most products are not formulated in a similiar fashion, and are missing certain other ingredients to complete the cycle.

Some have 15 servings and a high dose,...but 20 bucks a pop. Thats not long term value. At minimum our products offer a much more advanced dosing, and offer 36-40 dosings for around 70. So 55-60 bucks for 3 bottles still missing creatine, beta alanine, and things like Gabanergics, Insulin mimetics, etc... I dont think a 10 dollar difference is a massive deal when you get an effective guaranteed formula. We as a smaller company are always going to be a little more expensive, and its because we use harder to get raws, update formulas regulary, and always try to increase value.

We dropped our retails 10% last month, added 20 caps to P6 extreme, and are updating M5 to a more affordable and effective formula, and we really did not have too. M5 sales have been oustanding, and the feedback for Gen2 ( Gen3 in jan. 2010) has been amazing.

Other products have 100mg of Orninthine or Ornthine AKG. Arginine is only as necessary as the other precursors and things like Norvaline, etc.... 10 grams of arginine is worthless by itself , and the clinicals prove. I hope to be part of the movement of testing NO products and combinations to really nail down the most effective dosings and amounts of ingredients.

There is a ratio to things Feedback loops. The body is very smart. The most common complaint is that products do not work in the long haul. You have to cycle them heavily, etc...or use 2-3 dose servings. You will never have to use more than 2 servings of any product we put out which is our advance dosing. I have had many complaints about even having to use 4 servings of certain products on the market. Some have more ingredients...some have less. All I know is that our products like Nzero and M5 work everyday from day 1 - to the end of their need. I do suggest 1-2 days off a week of NO based products. I think Gaspari hit in on the head with Plasmajet and their dosing schedule ( no I am not comparing my product just their research and theory).

Thanks for the time and effort to prove your point, but there is a lot of the equation you are missing. I am talking about the Nitric Oxide cycle and its feedback loops, and how to maximize it use in improving works to improve leave muscle mass, weight loss, etc...

Its wickedly complex and amazing, and its evident that people love it. We try to really take it up a notch.

Also, lets talk about NO and bloodflow in the brain. Take something like picamilon and arginine etc...The NO and GABAnergic effects are amazing, and really take the nootropic effect up a huge notch. This is the stuff that separates us from the majority of products listed, and its why people feel different. They see the ingredients they know and dismiss the one's they dont. It's my job to inform them, and I will be doing that through the informational posts I will be making in conjunction with our product giveaways.

ps I drive a ford, so I can buy my supps =-)

**MikeCellucor** · 11-29-2009, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Prototyp3

Between this topic and PM's you've been plenty helpful and informative.

Now all that's left is to let the results speak for themselves. Looking forward to seeing the real world results after you guys worked to get things straightened out with bb.com and getting your products in the store.

We are in the store live and official. Sorry if I had you think otherwise.

We were kicked out about 8 months ago on the forums becayse were not in the store, but through product requests, and some amazing talks with bb.com it all happened very fast, and is going to be one hell of a good time when we start with the full launch.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cellucor/cellucor.htm

**Prototyp3** · 11-29-2009, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by MikeCellucor

We are in the store live and official. Sorry if I had you think otherwise.

We were kicked out about 8 months ago on the forums becayse were not in the store, but through product requests, and some amazing talks with bb.com it all happened very fast, and is going to be one hell of a good time when we start with the full launch.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cellucor/cellucor.htm

Oh I was aware you guys were, I was just ending my post with a friendly note hence the past tense with the word "worked", since you guys cleared everything up and are now good to go. As I said, looking forward to the full launch and the newer version of M5 and N0 around the new year.

**IronAlex** · 11-29-2009, 02:07 PM

I agree your products are on the higher end of the price scale, but I would be interested in seeing a few sponsored logs/reviews on some of the newer stuff you guys have going on (or writing one myself hint hint

haha). I don't mind spending money on something I think is worth it but I would like to see what other people have to say about it before I commit. No offence I'm sure you have great products. No real question I guess more of an oppinon, sorry about that.

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