Post workout Nutrition

[fmr_trackstar]

Ive read that PWO you should eat carbs with high GI. Is this true if your workouts are late also and you will be going to bed with an hour or two of working out? I usually workout around 8pm b/c of class and then eat protein shake , what else should I eat? I get hm around 9:30 and try to get in the bed by 10:30 -11. Isnt carbs before bed a bad idea?

PS Ive already read Alan Aragon's sticky.

[twinnett]

Carbs before bed are fine...

[emunah]

Carbs don't make you fat.

You can eat anything before bed.

I wish this myth would die.

YES, eat your high GI carbs.

[redhead75]

Post workout is my favorite meal of the day.

1 apple-sliced
1 tsp-glutamine
2 scoops whey protein

Blend all together and drink.

[fmr_trackstar]

What are some ideas of clean high GI carbs?

Red head- what glutamine would you rec?

[emunah]

I wouldn't recommend glutamine at all. It does nothing for recovery but is great if you have problems with your GI (which is where it is all absorbed).

High GI carbs can be anything. Some people use dextrose. Some use rice cakes. Some use milk and a bit of fruit and dextrose. Depends on what you like.

[VERVE]

Since your PWO shake is the last meal, you might consider adding some no-salt ff cottage cheese with fruit. Many people use cottage cheese before bed for it's slow release of protien over the night.

[star4822]

Yes, it's fine if you eat before bed. You should definitely not be skipping a post workout meal.
For my high GI carbs, I personally like to use rice cakes(white cheddar to be specific..mmm)

[cris360]

i just got dextrose can i use it as a pre and is matloderine nesscery to add to my dextrose for pw or what can i add to my dextrose for pw? whats the difference between them?

[Lisa-Law]

Originally Posted by fmr_trackstar

Ive read that PWO you should eat carbs with high GI. Is this true if your workouts are late also and you will be going to bed with an hour or two of working out? I usually workout around 8pm b/c of class and then eat protein shake , what else should I eat? I get hm around 9:30 and try to get in the bed by 10:30 -11. Isnt carbs before bed a bad idea?

PS Ive already read Alan Aragon's sticky.

Here is a link to a article on this site which lays out the components of Post Workout nutrition pretty well.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/topicoftheweek37.htm

[MauiZos]

Bananas are great PWO. They're one of the highest GI fruits and the potassium helps to restore your electrolyte balance after sweatin' out all your fluids. I like to freeze them and blend with chocolate or vanilla protein powder. mmmmmmmm....

[kelliewrx]

Originally Posted by MauiZos

Bananas are great PWO. They're one of the highest GI fruits and the potassium helps to restore your electrolyte balance after sweatin' out all your fluids. I like to freeze them and blend with chocolate or vanilla protein powder. mmmmmmmm....

That is exactly what I do, but I add tons and tons of cinnamon. Everything is good with cinnamon.

[fmr_trackstar]

Originally Posted by MauiZos

Bananas are great PWO. They're one of the highest GI fruits and the potassium helps to restore your electrolyte balance after sweatin' out all your fluids. I like to freeze them and blend with chocolate or vanilla protein powder. mmmmmmmm....

How do you blend frozen bananas?

[nacersusaf]

Originally Posted by fmr_trackstar

How do you blend frozen bananas?

How do you blend frozen anything? With a blender!

[MauiZos]

Originally Posted by nacersusaf

How do you blend frozen anything? With a blender!

bahahahaha... indeed!

You have to add a bit of liquid of course, like milk, soy milk, or water. But if a blender can chop ice cubes, surely it can handle a frozen banana!

[fmr_trackstar]

Originally Posted by MauiZos

bahahahaha... indeed!

But if a blender can chop ice cubes, surely it can handle a frozen banana!

Good pt. Im ordering choc whey protein soon when I get it I will try. Thx

[Mizfette]

Originally Posted by kelliewrx

That is exactly what I do, but I add tons and tons of cinnamon. Everything is good with cinnamon.

I'm with you on that one! I positively dump it on my oatmeal and in my pro shakes. Makes everything sweeter somehow.
And they keep coming up with research that says it helps metabolize carbohydrates better, so it's a match made in heaven!

[DUMB BELLE]

Originally Posted by emunah

I wouldn't recommend glutamine at all.

I beg to differ:

Intensive Exercise causes the depletion of Glutamine from the Muscles, Liver and Blood Plasma.

- Glutamine (5 - 10 grams per day) counteracts the suppression of the Immune System that occurs in people who engage in Endurance Exercise. research
- Glutamine counteracts the Acidosis (Lactic Acidosis resulting from Lactic Acid production) that often occurs as a result of strenuous Exercise.
- Glutamine can prevent the breakdown of Proteins within the Muscles (i.e. it can prevent catabolism and Muscle loss) during and after intensive Exercise.
- When excessive quantities of Lactic Acid are produced as a result of strenuous Exercise (resulting in Lactic Acidosis), Glutamine is catabolized from the Muscles and transferred to the bloodstream where it is utilized in the detoxification of Lactic Acid - supplemental Glutamine therefore "spares" the body's existing Glutamine reserves in the Muscles.
- Glutamine stimulates the synthesis of endogenous Proteins within the Muscles, thereby facilitating Muscle Growth (i.e. it is anabolic). research
- Glutamine concentrates in the Muscles (it comprises 10.4 mg per 100 grams of total Muscle weight and comprises 50% of the total free Amino Acid content of Muscles). research
- Glutamine prevents Muscular Atrophy (wasting of the tissues of the Muscles).
- Glutamine is required for the formation of Glycogen. research

FURTHERMORE:

- Glutamine reduces elevated Blood Sugar (by up to 50%).
- Glutamine stimulates the growth of and serves as a fuel source for Lymphocytes. research
- Glutamine improves the function of the Immune System. research
- Glutamine (5 - 10 grams per day) helps to prevent Bacterial & Viral Diseases (especially in persons who experience Glutamine depletion as a result of excessive Exercise or Endurance Exercise): research
- Glutamine reduces body weight in persons afflicted with Obesity (by approximately 10%). research
- Glutamine reduces cravings for Simple Sugars.
- Glutamine alleviates Fatigue.
- Glutamine alleviates Hypoglycemia.
- Glutamine enhances the health of the Liver. Research
- Glutamine strongly enhances the health of the Digestive System.
- Glutamine is a major source of energy for the Intestines and helps to prevent fluid loss from the Intestines.
- Glutamine is an essential "fuel" for the Villi cells of the Intestinal Wall. research
- Glutamine enhances the ability of Neutrophils (cells of the Immune System) to destroy Detrimental Bacteria. research
- Glutamine alleviates Aggressiveness (however studies that have demonstrated this property of Glutamine have involved the use of very high doses (40 grams per day)).
- Glutamine increases Alertness.
- Glutamine converts to Glutamic Acid within the Brain in order to provide Energy to the Brain.
- Glutamine improves Concentration.
- Glutamine (250 - 1,000 mg per day) improves Mood in Depression patients. research
- Glutamine increases Intelligence. research
- Glutamine increases Learning ability.
- Glutamine improves Memory.
- Glutamine improves Mood. research
- Glutamine reduces the sensation of Pain. research
- Glutamine facilitates the excretion of waste products from the Skin.
- Glutamine accelerates the healing of Wounds.
- Glutamine supplementation (of at least 2,000 mg per day) increases plasma Human Growth Hormone (hGH) levels by up to 400%. research

In-Tele-Health © (from Hyperhealth CD-ROM)

I would say that's reason enough!

Go ahead and add the Glutamine.

[fmr_trackstar]

PWO meal is suppose to contain very little fat, no? Well, since PB is high in fats (good fats I know) then should it be avoided PWO?

[emunah]

I meant glutamine PURELY for post workout recovery.

Listing benefits is meaningless. All you did is list how natural levels of glutamine are used in the body, which is NOT the same thing as oral supplementation. I can tell by some of those statements that it was done in cell culture, NOT in people.

I'd want to see the peer reviewed research, especially considering 99% of gluatmine is absorbed in the lower GI and never makes it past the digestive system. Anything you take orally is NOT going to have the same effect for this very reason.

[GO BIG]

Originally Posted by emunah

I wouldn't recommend glutamine at all. It does nothing for recovery but is great if you have problems with your GI (which is where it is all absorbed).
.

And anything else would be absorbed where???? through your butt perhaps????

[redhead75]

"Red head- what glutamine would you rec?"


I use the Vitamin World brand I think it is precision engineered? Wow many debates on Glutamine!! I was told by my trainer to take after so I just do what he says and for the month I have used him I have slimmed down and gained incredibly! My arms aren't spaghetti's USE THE GLUTAMINE

[GO BIG]

Originally Posted by emunah

I meant glutamine PURELY for post workout recovery.

Considered by most bodybuilding experts and nutritionists to be “one of the most important amino acids” in the human body.


Yet despite this label it still gets over shadowed by creatine, whey protein, and lately, nitric acid. One of 22 - Glutamine is one of the 22 amino acids that make up protein in the human body. Until scientists started taking a close look, amino acids were considered either essential or nonessential. Essential amino acids cannot be made by the body and must be consumed in the diet. Nonessential amino acids are those that can be manufactured from other amino acids. Glutamine doesn’t fit neatly into one of these categories. In fact the term “conditionally essential” is used, as while the body can manufacture it from other amino acids, there are times when demands outstrip supplies. For bodybuilders, glutamine’s primary role is combating the various stresses brought on by overtraining.

Overtraining is one of the biggest problems facing bodybuilders. The condition occurs when intense training is followed by inadequate rest periods. Instead of new muscle tissue being rebuilt, existing muscle tissue may be utilized as a fuel source. Glutamine can combat this by keeping the body in what’s called positive nitrogen balance. Essentially for protein to be turned into muscle tissue, nitrogen levels must be high. If they drop, muscle wasting can occur.

Intense exercise also causes the release of such catabolic hormones as corticosteroids. These compounds contribute to the depletion of muscle amino levels by increasing the release of amino's from muscle cells. These catabolic steroids can cause glutamine levels to drop even after exercise has stopped. The result is that the muscle becomes severely depleted.

Supplementing with amino acid has been shown to keep the body in positive nitrogen balance as well as fight the muscle wasting effects of corticosteroid release.

Immunity system booster.

Another benefit of this amino is its role as an immunity system booster. Most bodybuilders will admit that they catch colds and flues a lot easier when they train hard but don’t rest properly. the amino acid can help prevent this because it serves as a precursor to many of the immunity system’s anti-viral and anti-bacterial cells. In fact hospital patients, particularly burn victims, are routinely given glutamine to help fight off infection.

Originally Posted by emunah

Listing benefits is meaningless.

Only to a moron

Originally Posted by emunah

All you did is list how natural levels of glutamine are used in the body, which is NOT the same thing as oral supplementation. .

"Administration of glutamine to healthy and diseased human subjects leads to an increase in plasma and tissue glutamine levels, and has not been associated with significant side effects.6,7 "

"What does research say about Glutamine supplementation? All though our bodies are able to produce glutamine from other amino acids in our diet, stores of glutamine are quickly depleted during times of stress or intense physical activity. During periods of intense stress, such as, prolonged or intense exercise, starvation, or trauma, the level of plasma glutamine may decrease substantially (Castell, 2003). Intense exercise or any period of prolonged stress can deplete glutamine levels. Regular exercise has been shown to deplete glutamine levels by 45% in just 7 days (Newsholme, 1994). Following Marathon running plasma glutamine levels have been shown to decrease by around 20% (Castell and Newsholme, 1997). Since glutamine is an important fuel for immune cells, when glutamine levels are low, there is an increased risk of infection.

The consumption of oral glutamine has been shown to have a beneficial effect on immune function, and reduces the risk of infection following prolonged endurance exercise (Castell and Newsholme, 1997; Castell, 2003) and should be of benefit to athletes engaged in heavy exercise training (Antonio and Street, 1999).

Most important to the athlete is glutamine's ability to increase the production of protein (muscle building) and decrease protein degradation (muscle breakdown). Glutamine helps to maintain the amino-acid balance in the body, thereby enabling a greater synthesis of protein and a possible decrease in symptoms of overtraining (Bompa et al., 2003). Glutamine stimulates the synthesis of new protein within muscle cells, this in turn will lead to an increase in the size and strength of the muscles. This increase in strength is partly due to glutamines muscle cell volumising effect, whereby there is increased retention of water within muscle cells.

Because glutamine can be used as an energy source, maintaining a high level of glutamine in muscle tissue may help to preserve the valuable stores of muscle glycogen (carbohydrate store within muscle tissue). It will also help to increase the rate of glycogen re-synthesis in muscle cells, following strenuous or prolonged exercise.

Glutamine supplementation may efficiently lead to the release of growth hormone (Bompa et al., 2003). In fact, it is known that just a 2 gram dose of L-glutamine, taken orally, can double the level of growth hormone in just 30 minutes (Welbourne, 1995). When glutamine levels rise in the blood, it is detected by the brain. The brain associates this rise in glutamine levels with an increase in acidity in the blood and releases growth hormone in order to regulate the acidity levels.

In short, glutamine supplementation aids recovery from prolonged or intense exercise, primarily, by reducing the rate of muscle breakdown within muscle tissue. It also aids immune function, spares valuable stores of glycogen, and increases levels of growth hormone.



How should I take Glutamine? Health professionals generally recommend a daily dosage of 5-10 grams of glutamine, split into 2-4 servings. Athletes would be wise to use a minimum dose of 2 grams in order to gain the benefit of increased growth hormone levels. Ideally this should be taken 30 minutes prior to exercise and again immediately after exercise."



References

Antonio, J. and Street, C. (1999) Glutamine: a potentially useful supplement for athletes. Can J Appl Physiol. 24 (1), 1-14.

Bompa, T. O., Pasquale, M. D. and Cornacchia, L. J. (2003) Chapter 6: Using Nutritional Supplements. In: Serious Strength Training. Human Kinetics. Leeds, United kingdom.

Castell, L. (2003) Glutamine supplementation in vitro and in vivo, in exercise and in immunodepression. Sports Medicine. 33 (5), 323-345.

Castell, L. M. and Newsholme, E. A. (1997) The effects of oral glutamine on athletes after prolonged, exhaustive exercise. Nutrition. 13 (7-8), 738-742.

Newsholme, E. A. (1994) Biomechanical mechanisms to explain immunosuppression in well-trained and overtrained athletes. International Journal of Sports Medicine. 15, S142-147.

Rennie, M. J., MacLennan, P. A., Hundall, H. S. et al., (1989) Skeletal muscle glutamine transport, intramuscular glutamine concentration, and muscle-protein turnover. Metabolism. 38 (8 Suppl 1), 47-51.

Smith, R. J. (1990) Glutamine metabolism and its physiologic importance. Journal of Parenatal and Eternal Nutrition. 14, 40S-44S.

Welbourne, T. C. (1995) Increased plasma bicarbonate and growth hormone after an oral glutamine. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 61, 1058-1061.

Originally Posted by emunah

I'd want to see the peer reviewed research, especially considering 99% of gluatmine is absorbed in the lower GI and never makes it past the digestive system. Anything you take orally is NOT going to have the same effect for this very reason.

AGAIN -
"Administration of glutamine to healthy and diseased human subjects leads to an increase in plasma and tissue glutamine levels, and has not been associated with significant side effects.6,7 "

[GO BIG]

Originally Posted by emunah

I wouldn't recommend glutamine at all. It does nothing for recovery but is great if you have problems with your GI (which is where it is all absorbed).

mind you this is the same person who insisted that full body workouts are the ONLY way to train and that training one bodypart per day was futile

Originally Posted by emunah

High GI carbs can be anything. Some people use dextrose. Some use rice cakes. Some use milk and a bit of fruit and dextrose. Depends on what you like.

Cows milk breakdown: fat-34g/liter Protein-33g/liter Sugars-44g/liter
NOT a high GI carb

Although BB.com has great advise from a lot of members there is unfortunately also a lot of hogwash posted here as well and it is for this reason that you should ALWAYS do your own research as well before making decisions. If in doubt, google it, read as much as you can and then make a fully informed decision. AND YES, THAT INCLUDES MY ADVISE AS WELL!

Checking out someones pics is also no proof of knowledge - genetics and luck play a major part in how you look!!!

[GO BIG]

Originally Posted by redhead75

USE THE GLUTAMINE

BUMP

This link should help
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/koch2.htm

[DUMB BELLE]

Originally Posted by emunah

I meant glutamine PURELY for post workout recovery.

"Glutamine improves the health of people who regularly engage in strenuous Exercise: research
Glutamine counteracts the Acidosis (Lactic Acidosis resulting from Lactic Acid production) that often occurs as a result of strenuous Exercise.
Glutamine can prevent the breakdown of Proteins within the Muscles (i.e. it can prevent catabolism and Muscle loss) during and after intensive Exercise.
When excessive quantities of Lactic Acid are produced as a result of strenuous Exercise (resulting in Lactic Acidosis), Glutamine is catabolized from the Muscles and transferred to the bloodstream where it is utilized in the detoxification of Lactic Acid - supplemental Glutamine therefore "spares" the body's existing Glutamine reserves in the Muscles."

How is this NOT related to post workout recovery???????

Originally Posted by emunah

Listing benefits is meaningless.

If benefits are MEANINGLESS why do ANY athletes bother taking supplements????? Trainers take sups specifically FOR their BENEFITS!!!!

Originally Posted by emunah

All you did is list how natural levels of glutamine are used in the body, which is NOT the same thing as oral supplementation.

SIGH.............. I repeat:
"When excessive quantities of Lactic Acid are produced as a result of strenuous Exercise (resulting in Lactic Acidosis), Glutamine is catabolized from the Muscles and transferred to the bloodstream where it is utilized in the detoxification of Lactic Acid - supplemental Glutamine therefore "spares" the body's existing Glutamine reserves in the Muscles."

Originally Posted by emunah

I can tell by some of those statements that it was done in cell culture, NOT in people.
I'd want to see the peer reviewed research

"Glutamine improves the health of people who regularly engage in strenuous Exercise"
Research:
Keast, D., et al. Depression of plasma glutamine concentration after exercise stress and its possible influence on the immune system. Medical Journal of Australia. 162:15-18, 1995.

Elite soldiers who participated in intensive twice-daily workouts for 10 days exhibited a 50% reduction in plasma glutamine levels accompanied by significant decreases in performance; plasma glutamine levels did not return to normal until the soldiers received 6 days of rest.

"Glutamine counteracts the suppression of the Immune System that occurs in people who undertake Endurance Exercise."
Research:
Castell, L. M., et al. Does glutamine have a role in reducing infections in athletes? Eur J Appl Physiol. 73(5):488-90, 1996.

There is an increased risk of infections in athletes undertaking prolonged strenuous exercise. Cells of the immune system are less able to mount a defense against infections after such exercise. Plasma glutamine is decreased in athletes following endurance exercise which is partly responsible for the immunosuppression that occurs in endurance athletes.

Castell, L. M., et al. The effects of oral glutamine supplementation on athletes after prolonged exhaustive exercise. Nutrition. 13:738-742, 1997.

Sparkman, D. R. Glutamine supports immune function. All Natural Muscular Development. 35(2):38, 1998.

"Glutamine supplementation (of at least 2,000 mg per day) increases plasma Human Growth Hormone (hGH) levels by up to 400%. "
Research:
Block, W., et al. Food allergies: More common than you think. Interview with Michael Rosenbaum, MD. Life Enhancement. 34:3-7, 1997.

Bucci, L., Ph.D., University of Utah, Salt Lake City, USA. Annual Conference of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine, Las Vegas, USA, 1997.

Welbourne, T. C. Increased plasma bicarbonate and growth hormone after an oral glutamine load. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 61(5):105-1061, 1995.

These are just a FEW examples of the scientific research of Glutamine done on HUMANS. Should you require more examples, please feel free to let me know and I will send them to you.

[GO BIG]

Originally Posted by emunah

especially considering 99% of gluatmine is absorbed in the lower GI and never makes it past the digestive system.

Oral Glutamine Supplementation Bioavailability

Glutamine serves as a vital fuel for the gut, causing some(like emunah) to be skeptical of oral glutamine bioavailability. Bowtell et al. (1999) found that 46% of an 8 gram oral dosage of glutamine reached the blood stream while 53% of the dose was metabolized in the gut, liver, and kidneys.

Having 53% of the glutamine absorbed by the gut, liver, and kidneys may sound like a bad thing, but remember glutamine serves as a fuel for these tissues and their demand for glutamine is increased during times of stress (VanAcker et al. 1999). By supply exogenous glutamine to these tissues less glutamine will be needed from skeletal muscle to meet the body's glutamine demand.

Studies show that oral glutamine supplementation increases plasma glutamine levels. Due to the fact that skeletal muscle and plasma glutamine levels are depleted during exercise supplementing with exogenous glutamine is beneficial.

More research needs to be done to obtain more information on the effects of orally absorbed glutamine on skeletal muscle protein synthesis rates, but if you look the findings presented in this article, it is reasonable to assume supplemental glutamine will have positive effects on protein synthesis levels due to its ability to increase plasma glutamine levels.

[DUMB BELLE]

PHEW!

Getting back to the OP:

Originally Posted by fmr_trackstar

PWO meal is suppose to contain very little fat, no? Well, since PB is high in fats (good fats I know) then should it be avoided PWO?

Correct. Avoid ANY fats in your PWO shake/meal as fats slow down the absorption and p/w you really want to get the nutrients straight in there as quickly as possible!

PB would be great just before bed as the slow absorption rate will assist in preventing your body from going catabolic while you sleep.

[emunah]

The botwell study looked at glycogen replenishment, not muscle growth.

VanAcker gives his glutamine I.V. infusion. Unless you want to be hooked up to an I.V.....

Addition of glutamine to essential amino acids and carbohydrate does not enhance anabolism in young human males following exercise.Wilkinson SB, Kim PL, Armstrong D, Phillips SM.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.

We examined the effect of a post-exercise oral carbohydrate (CHO, 1 g.kg(-1).h(-1)) and essential amino acid (EAA, 9.25 g) solution containing glutamine (0.3 g/kg BW; GLN trial) versus an isoenergetic CHO-EAA solution without glutamine (control, CON trial) on muscle glycogen resynthesis and whole-body protein turnover following 90 min of cycling at 65% VO2 peak. Over the course of 3 h of recovery, muscle biopsies were taken to measure glycogen resynthesis and mixed muscle protein synthesis (MPS), by incorporation of [ring-2H5] phenylalanine. Infusion of [1-13C] leucine was used to measure whole-body protein turnover. Exercise resulted in a significant decrease in muscle glycogen (p < 0.05) with similar declines in each trial. Glycogen resynthesis following 3 h of recovery indicated no difference in total accumulation or rate of repletion. Leucine oxidation increased 2.5 fold (p < 0.05) during exercise, returned to resting levels immediately post-exercise,and was again elevated at 3 h post-exercise (p < 0.05). Leucine flux, an index of whole-body protein breakdown rate, was reduced during exercise, but increased to resting levels immediately post-exercise, and was further increased at 3 h post-exercise (p < 0.05), but only during the CON trial. Exercise resulted in a marked suppression of whole-body protein synthesis (50% of rest; p < 0.05), which was restored post-exercise; however, the addition of glutamine did not affect whole-body protein synthesis post-exercise. The rate of MPS was not different between trials. The addition of glutamine to a CHO + EAA beverage had no effect on post-exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis or muscle protein synthesis, but may suppress a rise in whole-body proteolysis during the later stages of recovery.

Just an example. If you look at the literature, most data on glutamine is done on critically ill patients, the elderly, etc. Which is not comparable. The studies looking at the relationship between muscle growth and glutamine show no effect.

[fmr_trackstar]

Originally Posted by DUMB BELLE

PHEW!



PB would be great just before bed as the slow absorption rate will assist in preventing your body from going catabolic while you sleep.

Well my PWO meal is my pre bed sleep considering I go to sleep an hour after working out. So no PB it is, no problem.