Dilemma - maximum weight or proper form?

[Zaxxxon]

I apologise. This has probably been asked a thousand times before, but the search function can be a little too much like hard work when you're at your desk and trying to sneek in some quick to the point advise between tasks so...

My question was to be specifically for bicep development but it's gonna be relevant to the whole body, but I was doing some curls with an EZ bar and the weights were heavy (for me!). Doing sets of 10 I found that for the last three reps I was arching my back and almost "swinging" the bar up to my chin to get those last reps in.

However, yesterday I took the decision to lower the weight on the bar by 4kg (not a huge amount but enough) in order to complete the 10 reps without arching my back and using raw bicep power alone.

Is there a conflict? If bulking, some would say to steadily increase the weight over successive weeks and some would say correct form wins over everything.

My rather long winded question (thank you for making it this far) is... What should I do? Lower the weight (which goes against the grain mentally) so you can complete the required sets without arching (the weight of the bar still pulls me forward on the down swing) or continue to struggle getting the weight up?

What is going to build the targetted muscle groups more effectively? Does maximum weight and less than correct form utilise more core muscles as well and in turn developing those also (notwithstanding the risk of injury)?

So... (in this example) bigger biceps... lower weight and attention to form or heavier weights utilising other muscle groups into the bargain?

Many thanks.

Z.

[Halfway]

Obviously load more weight on the bar and swing even harder. As a 35+ novice lifter your joints and tendons are going to be extremely resiliant to any forces applied to them, so have at it.

I saw someone tear a bicep in the gym last week, it rolled up inside their arm like it was trying to hide from something.

[Zaxxxon]

Originally Posted by Halfway

Obviously load more weight on the bar and swing even harder. As a 35+ novice lifter your joints and tendons are going to be extremely resiliant to any forces applied to them, so have at it.

Thanks man. Actually that wasn't the answer I was kinda expecting lol!

I do have one slight problem in that earlier this year in my niavity, I overtrained my arms lifting as heavy as I could and must've damaged the tendons on my right forearm. After many weeks rest and light lifting, my forearm still hurts for the first set like it's on fire. I don't suppose it'll ever be 100% right again but I've learned to live with it and around it.

So, it's one vote for "the swing"!!

[Karl_Hungus]

Originally Posted by Zaxxxon

Thanks man. Actually that wasn't the answer I was kinda expecting lol!

I do have one slight problem in that earlier this year in my niavity, I overtrained my arms lifting as heavy as I could and must've damaged the tendons on my right forearm. After many weeks rest and light lifting, my forearm still hurts for the first set like it's on fire. I don't suppose it'll ever be 100% right again but I've learned to live with it and around it.

So, it's one vote for "the swing"!!

I think he was being sarcastic

But generally, I would vote for lowering the weight and going with proper form. The bicep (in my experience) can be injured easily, and so you don't want to load up a ton of weight and swing it up. Plus, you won't end up targeting the muscle effectively anyway.

That said, sometimes if I can't get the last rep, I'll cheat just a little as a means of self-spotting to get one last rep. But, you shouldn't really be doing that for most of your reps.

[Zaxxxon]

Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus

I think he was being sarcastic

D'oh! Just shows when you are at work sneaking in the odd surf, your sarcasm radar is often off leaving you open to looking a plum.

OK - Form to fail. Fail means anything that deteriorates the form right?

[tonester]

For exercises like the curl, I don't see the point of throwing in every muscle in your body to get it up when the point was to isolate the bicep in the first place (the bicep is no longer getting the load). You might as well be doing chin ups the same way and get more core work.

I always use speed and form as the fail point.

[beerbar]

What good is 150 pounds on a curling bar if you are going to arch your back to lessen the load or do 1/4 reps because you can't perform a full rep.

It's not only about how much weight is on the bar. Form counts! It will prevent injury and also put all the stress on the muscles you actually do want to work.

[billrich210]

Personally if I can't lift it ten times, slowly and with good form, it is too heavy.

[SpadesOfIndia]

I personally don't think that swinging is a problem but then the weight on the bar can not be counted toward biceps as some of the force is coming from other muscle groups. \

Anyways I don't believe that more weight is the key. Technique is the key.
Lower the weight and follow this thread http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=243948
Best thread on this subject. BuckSpin added 1.5 inches in 9 months with 75 lbs curls and these were not the beginner gains.

Remember to squeeze at the top of the movement.

[Like It Or Not]

I think technique wins out. However, if you are on your last set, and can't hit the last few and want to cheat, I wouldn't recommend cheating by arching your back, etc. Rather, really cheat and get the weight up, and just do a few negatives. See how long you can slowly lower the weight down. Those will work wonders.

[Zaxxxon]

Originally Posted by SpadesOfIndia

I personally don't think that swinging is a problem but then the weight on the bar can not be counted toward biceps as some of the force is coming from other muscle groups. \

Anyways I don't believe that more weight is the key. Technique is the key.
Lower the weight and follow this thread http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=243948
Best thread on this subject. BuckSpin added 1.5 inches in 9 months with 75 lbs curls and these were not the beginner gains.

Remember to squeeze at the top of the movement.

Thanks for this. I have short/high biceps so it's bang on.

[ironwill2008]

Good form always trumps "moving the weight," at least if your goal is bodybuilding.

[Zaxxxon]

Originally Posted by billrich210

Personally if I can't lift it ten times, slowly and with good form, it is too heavy.

I needed to hear this. Thanks. Repped.

[Zaxxxon]

Thanks to everyone. Message received loud and clear. Actually, it's spurred me on to re-assess every exercise in my workouts.

I'm moving house soon and my home gym won't be available to me for about six weeks (majorly miffed about that) so all I'm taking with me in the temp house is a flat bench and two dumb bell bars and a selection of weights.

That should make for an interesting change!

[x-trainer ben]

Originally Posted by Zaxxxon

I apologise. This has probably been asked a thousand times before, but the search function can be a little too much like hard work when you're at your desk and trying to sneek in some quick to the point advise between tasks so...

My question was to be specifically for bicep development but it's gonna be relevant to the whole body, but I was doing some curls with an EZ bar and the weights were heavy (for me!). Doing sets of 10 I found that for the last three reps I was arching my back and almost "swinging" the bar up to my chin to get those last reps in.

However, yesterday I took the decision to lower the weight on the bar by 4kg (not a huge amount but enough) in order to complete the 10 reps without arching my back and using raw bicep power alone.

Is there a conflict? If bulking, some would say to steadily increase the weight over successive weeks and some would say correct form wins over everything.

My rather long winded question (thank you for making it this far) is... What should I do? Lower the weight (which goes against the grain mentally) so you can complete the required sets without arching (the weight of the bar still pulls me forward on the down swing) or continue to struggle getting the weight up?

What is going to build the targetted muscle groups more effectively? Does maximum weight and less than correct form utilise more core muscles as well and in turn developing those also (notwithstanding the risk of injury)?

So... (in this example) bigger biceps... lower weight and attention to form or heavier weights utilising other muscle groups into the bargain?

Many thanks.

Z.

I for 1, am a strict form addict; it needs to always be done as if you are teaching a newbie how for the first time. With that being said lower the weight and do perfect reps 2-5 extra times. once 15 reps is easy add some more weight. You will quickly get stronger by christmas and be able to do the weight you were struggling with.

Cheat reps are best done with a training partner or a spotter.

[KLMARB]

Originally Posted by x-trainer ben

I for 1, am a strict form addict; it needs to always be done as if you are teaching a newbie how for the first time. With that being said lower the weight and do perfect reps 2-5 extra times. once 15 reps is easy add some more weight. You will quickly get stronger by christmas and be able to do the weight you were struggling with.

Cheat reps are best done with a training partner or a spotter.

Yeah, what he said. And, if no partner/spotter is available, its better to go to drops, supers, giants, rest-pause, constriction, etc. rather than a catastrophic loss of form potentially leading to injury.....

[snoack]

I see plenty of guys at my gym swinging their body to generate momentum for curls.

Don't be one of those guys.

[Halfway]

for compound lifts you should be trying to slam the weight up as hard as possible using all the muscle groups

for isolation, squeeze and contract hard the one working muscle group.

I seldom curl anything heavier than the 30's

[jerrycarroll]

Originally Posted by beerbar

What good is 150 pounds on a curling bar if you are going to arch your back to lessen the load or do 1/4 reps because you can't perform a full rep.

It's not only about how much weight is on the bar. Form counts! It will prevent injury and also put all the stress on the muscles you actually do want to work.

Form counts, but when you are trying to eek out those last couple of reps to get to pure exhaustion, screw the form and do what you can.
This is just my opinion and it works for me.
Don't do this all the time though or you are bound for injury.

[yakabebe]

Lots of good advice here so I'll just add my 2c

"Work the muscle - dont move the weight" and "Check your ego at the door" - both of those are at the core of most of comments above.

Besides, as you get older, the attention to form, the range of motion and the weights you use become very critical to maintaining an injury-free training regime.

I hear the advice that at the end of the set when you're at or very near your failure point there is this temptation to go that one more rep or finish the set. You have to really ask why this is so and how you go about it.

Generally, I rekon most guys rekon (and there is an element of truth in it) that the last few reps - the ones that really are the struggle ones - are the "money" reps - the ones that will spur that bit of growth.

Having said that and agreeing with it - then, what service is gained if say in a standing curl and in those last couple of reps the advantages of using swing, recruiting back and shoulder muscles, engaging momentum and other such influences OVER (and instead of....) fatiguing and making the bicep fail?

Thats the quesion you should address. When you get that one solved you'll need no real advice whether form or weight is the primary factor

[Zaxxxon]

Thanks guys. Some great, informative and detailed answers.

I am definitely going to drop the weight and concentrate on form, slowing down the rep and squeezing at the top. May even drop the number from 10 to 8 so I'm not tempted to swing those last couple.

Looking forward to seeing positive results!

Z.

[ironwill2008]

Originally Posted by Zaxxxon

Looking forward to seeing positive results!

And you will, with far less chance of injury.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Originally Posted by ironwill2008

And you will, with far less chance of injury.

I personally NEVER go heavy on curls as I already have a partially detached bicep and really don't relish the idea of it snapping on me.

Oddly, the arm with the partial detachment is my stronger arm on curling movements too...... weird.

[liegelord]

Heavy weighted chins, each performed strict from a deadhang, may be the best bicep exercise. What matters is the tension/mechanical load on the muscle and you'll never curl close to what you can chin.

[koa187]

proper form will always get you to maximum weught.

[beerbar]

Originally Posted by jerrycarroll

Form counts, but when you are trying to eek out those last couple of reps to get to pure exhaustion, screw the form and do what you can.
This is just my opinion and it works for me.
Don't do this all the time though or you are bound for injury.

If you can't get that last rep with good form, isn't that failure/exhaustion already?

[FlexinMike]

Originally Posted by Old-Time-Lifter

I personally NEVER go heavy on curls as I already have a partially detached bicep and really don't relish the idea of it snapping on me.

Oddly, the arm with the partial detachment is my stronger arm on curling movements too...... weird.

That is weird!

[ironwill2008]

Originally Posted by beerbar

If you can't get that last rep with good form, isn't that failure/exhaustion already?

It is in my book. When I can't get another rep with good form, the set is over.

[BuckSpin]

Originally Posted by SpadesOfIndia

Anyways I don't believe that more weight is the key. Technique is the key.
Lower the weight and follow this thread http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=243948
Best thread on this subject. BuckSpin added 1.5 inches in 9 months with 75 lbs curls and these were not the beginner gains.

Remember to squeeze at the top of the movement.

Yup. That thread has made a huge impact on how I train that muscle group. I've never been able to do Reverse Preachers (aka Scott Curls) with anything heavier than 75lbs, and that was the most recent jump. Most of those gains were made on 45-65lb BBs. Incline DB Curls? I've made myself nauseous using 25s & 30s. Toss in some strict Cable Rope Curls and you've hit all 3 aspects of that muscle group (long & short head of the bis plus the brachialis)

"Its not how much, its how"

[jerrycarroll]

Originally Posted by Old-Time-Lifter

I personally NEVER go heavy on curls as I already have a partially detached bicep and really don't relish the idea of it snapping on me.

Oddly, the arm with the partial detachment is my stronger arm on curling movements too...... weird.

my repaired right arm looks bigger and is stronger than my left arm....odd eh?