Myths Surrounding Kaaba

[~Serpent~]

The Kaaba is considered the center of the Muslim world, and is a unifying focal point for Islamic worship. There are also several interesting myths surrounding Kaaba. Amongst these myths we see possible ties between the rituals and symbolism of the Muslim Kaaba, and that of the pagan predecessors whom occupied and lived in the land before the prophet Mohammad overtook it and destroyed the idols which it housed.

First is the concept of "Circumambulation" or "Tawaf".

Wiki defines it as: "an act of moving around a sacred object."

It defines Circumambulation of temples or deity images as an integral part of Hindu ritual and also practiced in Buddhism. In Sanskrit it is called Pradakshina or Parikrama and literally means "the path surrounding something" or "to the right" representing Circumambulation.

Most Hindu temple structures include various Parikrama or Pradaksina paths. Pradaksina paths are defined as:

Circumbulatory or pathway around the shrine of the temples by keeping time is a common form of prayer in India. This pathway made of stone around the shrine is called Pradakshina path

-wiki


-Relief of devotees circumambulating a stupa


Within Hinduism, the importance of Circumambulation seems to originate with the god Shiva.

A legend related to Lord Shiva and his two sons illustrates the importance of Pradakshina or Parikrama. It is said that Lord Shiva asked his two sons to circumambulate the universe to gain worldly knowledge. While his first son Shanmuga spent decades to go round the world on his peacock, his younger son Ganesha walked a full circle around his father and justified his action by stating that the World was contained within Lord Shiva, his father. This legend justifies the importance that Hindus attach to the practice of Parikrama.

On this subject we see why some Hindus may believe that Kabaa was in fact originally a temple dedicated to the Hindu god. But aside from the ritual of Circumambulation, are there other things which Hindus may see within the Kaaba that they may link to their faith? Here we see other symbols which Hindus recognize:

Long before Islam came in to existence, Kaaba, in Mecca in Saudi Arabia was a pilgrimage site. The word Kaaba might have come from the Tamil Language which originated around 1700BC. In Tamil Nadu Kabaalishwaran temple is Lord Shiva?s temple and Kabaali refers to Lord Shiva. The black stone at Kaaba is held sacred and holy in Islam and is called "Hajre Aswad" from the Sanskrit word Sanghey Ashweta or Non-white stone. The Shiva Lingam is also called Sanghey Ashweta. So what is in Kaaba could be the same what Hindus worship. The pedestal Maqam-E-Ibrahim at the centre of the Kaaba is octagonal in shape. In Hinduism, the pedestal of Brahma the creator is also octagonal in shape

Also concerning the annual Muslim tradition of Hajj:

The annual fair known as OKAJ which used to be held every year around the Kaaba temple in Mecca and the present annual hajj of the Muslims to the Kaaba is of earlier pre-Islamic congregation.

Also concerning symbols of Shiva, we read:

Even to this day ancient Siva emblems can be seen. It is the Shankara (Siva) stone that Muslim pilgrims reverently touch and kiss in the Kaaba.

Hindus also refer to this stone as Shiva linga and see an uncanny resemblance with the black stone of Kaaba. Shiva is often worshipped in the form of Shiva linga. Of the "Lingam" we read:

Some associate it with the physical form of Pranava (Om). Oval form represents even the shape of the Universe including the existing space. It is single shape of Trimurti. Praying Shiva Linga is considered as praying the Thrimurti in absolute form.

Etymology:

Siva means auspiciousness and linga means a sign or a symbol. Hence the Sivalinga is regarded as a "symbol of the great God of the universe who is all-auspiciousness." Siva also means one in whom the whole creation sleeps after dissolution. Linga also means the same thing?a place where created objects get dissolved during the disintegration of the created universe. Since, according to Hinduism, it is the same god that creates, sustains and withdraws the universe, the Sivalinga, represents symbolically God Himself.

Examples of other ritual similarities:

Muslims shave their head and beard and don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless sheets of white cloth. One is to be worn round the waist and the other over the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedic practice of entering Hindu temples clean and with holy seamless white sheets.

Another Hindu tradition associated with the Kaaba is that of the sacred stream Ganga (sacred waters of the Ganges river). According to the Hindu tradition Ganga is also inseparable from the Shiva emblem as the crescent moon. Wherever there is a Siva emblem, Ganga must co-exist. True to that association a sacred fount exists near the Kaaba. Its water is held sacred because it has been traditionally regarded as Ganga since pre-Islamic times (Zam-Zam water).

Finally, one simple symbol that Hindus see as a connection between their religion and Islam is the crescent symbol of the moon, which depictions of Shiva always show across his forehead or hair:





Of course all of these similarities do not prove that Islam adopted these symbols and rituals from the pagans, however it is intriguing to say the least. It would be illogical to simply dismiss the influence of older religions as well, since the Abrahamic faiths may also be considered legacies of earlier cultures. Remember that Abraham came out of UR, and was surrounded by Chaldean/Babylonian culture and religion.



Concerning the Hindu deity Shiva, we also find interesting astrological symbolism. One of them is Shiva as a manifestation of the planet Saturn. Astrologer Dr. Arabinda Mukherjee writes:

Saturn is the death and Saturn is the life. Saturn is the rebuilder after the destruction and that point becomes " LORD SHIVA"

19th century spiritualist and scholar H.P. Blavatsky writes:

Now we have to remember that Siva and the Palestinian Baal, or Moloch, and Saturn are identical; that Abraham is held until the present day by the Mohammedan Arabas as Saturn in the Kaaba; that Abraham and Israel were names of Saturn; and that Sanchoniathon tells us that and even circumcised himself and forced all his household and allies to do the same; to trace unerringly the Biblical myth to its source. But this source is neither Phoenician nor Chaldean; it is purely Indian, and originally may be found in the Mahabharata. But whether Brahmanical or Buddhistical, it must certainly be much older than the Jewish Pentateuch, as compiled by Ezra after the Babylonian captivity, and revised by the Rabbis of the Great Synagogue.

Does not that patron-Angel of the Jews preside over Saturn (Siva or Rudra), and the Sabbath the day of Saturn? Is he not shown the same essence of his father, (Saturn) and called Kronos [Chronos], Kala [time], a form of Brahma (Vishnu and Shiva)?

So are there, if any apparent or blatant things about the Kaaba that we see tied to this planet? Some scholars say that in ancient Egypt Saturn under the manifestation of "El" or Amun-Ra was represented by a black square or cube. Black traditionally being the color of Saturn.

I should mention that Saturday is Saturn in astrology, and consequently the day of the Sabbath. The 7th day of the week.

It is accepted by astronomers that Saturn has 7 rings, each labeled with one of the letters of the 7 musical notes (abcdefg), which revolve around the planet counter-clockwise.

[Weightaholic]

In for what will undoubtedly be some spectacular sophistry!

[~Serpent~]

I put this together in a rush, so it is not as organized or indepth as I would like.

[Weightaholic]

Originally Posted by ~Serpent~

I put this together in a rush, so it is not as organized or indepth as I would like.

As someone who had to get out a magnifying glass to read your tiny font, it's not as big as I would like.

Please, no font size 1, eh?

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by Weightaholic

As someone who had to get out a magnifying glass to read your tiny font, it's not as big as I would like.

Please, no font size 1, eh?

Sorry, I kind of like the smaller font now. If size = loudness in forum communication, then I would be whispering

[Weightaholic]

Originally Posted by ~Serpent~

Sorry, I kind of like the smaller font now. If size = loudness in forum communication, then I would be whispering

No, seriously, please Serpent. It's not all that great.

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by Weightaholic

No, seriously, please Serpent. It's not all that great.

I edited for your viewing.

[makavelli1988]

Originally Posted by ~Serpent~

Abraham came out of UR, and was surrounded by Chaldean/Babylonian culture and religion.

Ur was actually Sumerian not Babylonian. It suffered attacks and invasions from the Akkadians and the Babylonians, but it pre-dates the Babylonians by a lot. Babylonian empire only came to prominence during the end of Sumer. the city of Ur was founded in the 3rd Millennium BC, but became a major city in 2600BC. Uruk was built in 4000 BC, and Chaldea was built in the 3rd Millenium BC, while Akkad maybe even older. The religions of these cities had the symbolisms you mentioned in Islam and similar rituals as well.

All these civilizations were in the middle east region and pre-date Hinduism which was found in the Vedic period (1700-1100 BCE). It makes more sense that the Abrahamic religions and particularly Islam have more in common with the religion of those cities i mentioned than Hinduism, since those cities are from the same region, pre-date Hinduism, and probably had an influence on the creation of Hinduism itself.

Also, is what you posted a scholarly article? i m interested in who wrote it

[psamty]

Very interesting post. The Grand Mosque and the Kaaba together look a lot like a Shiva Linga and a Yoni.

[mehdi84]

This is an interesting writeup, however your title is a bit misleading, as it doesn't coincide with the content you present. Particularly, what is the myth being referred to, and where is the argument for it? Coincidence doesn't infer correlation.

The biggest fault this presentation has is the suggestion that some of these practices involving the Hajj were assimilated during the birth of Islam. However, historical references suggest that this was not the case. "Tawaf", for example, was a practice that began after the first Hajj. In other words, this practice was not occurring during the Pagan rule of Mekkah.

As such, at most you could claim that Islam copy catted these practices.

Additionally, the crescent moon is an adoption by Islam after the lifetime of the Prophet (sas). The symbol was adopted after the conquest of Constantinople, which was the city's symbol.

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by makavelli1988

Ur was actually Sumerian not Babylonian. It suffered attacks and invasions from the Akkadians and the Babylonians, but it pre-dates the Babylonians by a lot. Babylonian empire only came to prominence during the end of Sumer. the city of Ur was founded in the 3rd Millennium BC, but became a major city in 2600BC. Uruk was built in 4000 BC, and Chaldea was built in the 3rd Millenium BC, while Akkad maybe even older. The religions of these cities had the symbolisms you mentioned in Islam and similar rituals as well.

UR is the name of the city of both ancient Sumer and Chaldea. Essentially Chaldea and Babylon are rooted in (adopted) Sumerian culture and language. It should be apparent that all of these successive cultures existed in the same area : Modern day Iraq. Abraham is generally known as Abraham of Chaldea and was said to have been born there.

All these civilizations were in the middle east region and pre-date Hinduism which was found in the Vedic period (1700-1100 BCE). It makes more sense that the Abrahamic religions and particularly Islam have more in common with the religion of those cities i mentioned than Hinduism, since those cities are from the same region, pre-date Hinduism, and probably had an influence on the creation of Hinduism itself.

Also, is what you posted a scholarly article? i m interested in who wrote it

We are not singling out any specific religion as having more of an influence upon Islam than others. Since Hinduism shares fundamental philosophical similarities with the many pagan religions that flourished throughout the middle east, it does not matter which one you choose to use as an example. It is interesting to know however how many Hindus at present seem to believe this. As mentioned in the OP, there are various cultures which have shared symbols.

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by psamty

Very interesting post. The Grand Mosque and the Kaaba together look a lot like a Shiva Linga and a Yoni.

You're right, it is shaped like a yoni

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by mehdi84

This is an interesting writeup, however your title is a bit misleading, as it doesn't coincide with the content you present. Particularly, what is the myth being referred to, and where is the argument for it? Coincidence doesn't infer correlation.

The biggest fault this presentation has is the suggestion that some of these practices involving the Hajj were assimilated during the birth of Islam. However, historical references suggest that this was not the case. "Tawaf", for example, was a practice that began after the first Hajj. In other words, this practice was not occurring during the Pagan rule of Mekkah.

As such, at most you could claim that Islam copy catted these practices.

Additionally, the crescent moon is an adoption by Islam after the lifetime of the Prophet (sas). The symbol was adopted after the conquest of Constantinople, which was the city's symbol.

This is just a glimpse at possible symbolic and ritual similarities of Islam and that of other cultures. It is said that there were many rituals that had already been practiced by the pagans who controlled Kaaba and where the prophet Mohammad grew up. Some say that the annual pilgrimage and circumambulation was a tradition that was pre-Islamic and that the prophet was quite familiar with those practices before revelation. It is later, after he returns and strips the Kaaba of everything save what God told him, leaving all but one idol and the rituals which had pre-existed and of which the Arab culture of that area were familiar with.

The moon was a prevalent symbol of divinity amongst the Arabians and the surrounding cultures of antiquity. So maybe they are of the same source.

[~Serpent~]

ARABIA IN THE PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD

As a natural result of idolatry it became important in Arabia to have an idol or a temple. In Arabia before the advent of Islam stones were erected in front of the Kaaba or temples. The places where people worshipped in groups had many idols and religious ceremonies were carried out in the form of circumambulation. These temples were greatly respected by the Arabs. Although they were usually called bayt, the temples in the shape of cubes were called kaaba. The Temple of Riyam in the San?a region of Yemen was among the most famous temples in the Age of Ignorance.

The most important place in this pre-Islamic belief was without a doubt the Kaaba and its surroundings. As a matter of fact, it is known that pilgrimage to the Kaaba was the most common and the regular form of worship during the Age of Ignorance. In the pilgrimage season, during which fighting was prohibited and conflicts among the tribes came to a halt, every tribe would circumambulate the Kaaba. They would stop in front of their own idols, bow with respect and utter a prayer. To symbolize purification from sins, the circumambulation was generally performed naked. Although the circumambulation constituted the basis of the pilgrimage, the pilgrimage also included visits to other temples in the region where other idols were located. No living creatures would be killed in the temples, which were believed to have the traces of God?s existence and which, accordingly, were considered to be sacred. For that reason, such places were ideal shelters for people who were victimized by tribes and who feared for their lives. The Arabs at this time would give various presents, including perfume, to the gods in the temples, and they would make offerings and sacrifice animals for them. It is also known that the Arabs fasted like the Jews and Christians, and circumcised their sons. Although it is known that there were practices like ghusul (total ablution of the body), washing the dead and wrapping them in shrouds, it is not known how common these acts were.

Nihal Sahin Utku, PhD

http://www.lastprophet.info/en/histo...-period-3.html

[CMDaddy88]

Originally Posted by ~Serpent~

It is later, after he returns and strips the Kaaba of everything save what God told him, leaving all but one idol and the rituals which had pre-existed and of which the Arab culture of that area were familiar with.

source?

[BahadurShah]

the OP is spectacularly full of spectacular fail. i will address the claims made in this thread tomorrow, assuming someone else hasn't shredded them by then

[Weightaholic]

Originally Posted by BahadurShah

the OP is spectacularly full of spectacular fail. i will address the claims made in this thread tomorrow, assuming someone else hasn't shredded them by then

Oh boy! I was waiting for the promised sophistry! Have at it!

You don't mind when I point out the flaws in your "arguments", do you old boy?

[makavelli1988]

Originally Posted by ~Serpent~

UR is the name of the city of both ancient Sumer and Chaldea. Essentially Chaldea and Babylon are rooted in (adopted) Sumerian culture and language. It should be apparent that all of these successive cultures existed in the same area : Modern day Iraq. Abraham is generally known as Abraham of Chaldea and was said to have been born there.

That was my whole argument. these cultures were present in this region and are more likely to be the influence of Abrahmic faiths not Hinduism. Your whole speculative argument is that Islam is based on Hinduism, or has been influenced by Hinduism when there is a better, more likely candidate

Originally Posted by ~Serpent~

We are not singling out any specific religion as having more of an influence upon Islam than others. Since Hinduism shares fundamental philosophical similarities with the many pagan religions that flourished throughout the middle east, it does not matter which one you choose to use as an example. It is interesting to know however how many Hindus at present seem to believe this. As mentioned in the OP, there are various cultures which have shared symbols.

lol wat? i assumed that was the whole purpose of this thread. you dedicated much of it in showing Islam basically copied Hindu rituals and symbols.

Also, you say many Hindus believe this, so this is basically speculation? every religion or culture claims to be the origin. i was under the assumption you would have more evidence, particularly of the scholarly kind. i have a huge interest in the start of religion, particularly the Abrahamic faiths and the pagan religions of the middle east, so i would be more than happy to read any sources you post

[BahadurShah]

Originally Posted by Weightaholic

Oh boy! I was waiting for the promised sophistry! Have at it!

You don't mind when I point out the flaws in your "arguments", do you old boy?

How the hell would you be able to point out any flaws in my arguments? You don't know enough about either religion being discussed or their respective histories to even participate in this discussion without looking like an ignorant blowhard (though that's never stopped you before).

Anyway, don't worry, I'll get to this thread. Just too busy to post atm.

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by makavelli1988

That was my whole argument. these cultures were present in this region and are more likely to be the influence of Abrahmic faiths not Hinduism. Your whole speculative argument is that Islam is based on Hinduism, or has been influenced by Hinduism when there is a better, more likely candidate

You seem to assume I am making an "argument" about a single religion, but the title of the thread does not state that. Hinduism is just one example. I don't think I have stated anywhere that Islam is soley based on that faith. Maybe you could quote me where I said that.

We see that Islam has elements from various traditions. The most obvious being the Judaic or Abrahamic faiths. Since many people are not familiar with religious traditions outside the Abrahamic faiths, they may be surprised to find similarities.

lol wat? i assumed that was the whole purpose of this thread.

Yes, you were wrong

Also, you say many Hindus believe this, so this is basically speculation? every religion or culture claims to be the origin. i was under the assumption you would have more evidence, particularly of the scholarly kind. i have a huge interest in the start of religion, particularly the Abrahamic faiths and the pagan religions of the middle east, so i would be more than happy to read any sources you post

Everyone will have their own interpretation. It is merely a glimpse at showing possible connections between other traditions, not necessarily an argument to prove a faith copied from others.

[~Serpent~]

"Even at the present day, for the Hindus, circumambulation round certain sacred spots has the effect of blotting out sins. It was the same with the Buddhists, who, long before our epoch, had constructed around their stupas, or eminences containing relics, circular galleries to serve for circumambulation of pilgrims. The Buddhists of Tibet and Japan have preserved this custom."

Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics - James Hastings

[leafs43]

All I really read was that the OP believes the 7 rings around Saturn and that's it. Rings disappear and reappear around Saturn based on reflection from the sun. Nor is it explained that of those 7 they actually consist of hundreds of smaller rings.

[ONtop888]

Interested in hearing more debate about this topic, and exactly what religious traditions and beliefs were prominent in the first 5-6 hundred years A.D. in Arabia. It's something that I am not very well informed in.

[SYRIANKID]

Refuting the OP's myths on the Kaaba:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

[SYRIANKID]

A common logical error is to compare superficial elements between religions and presume that they are linked through imitation or borrowing. This is certainly true for syncretistic religions, but is something that must be proven, not presumed. One cannot merely say "I notice a similarity between religious rites, therefore if A preceded B, then B is based on A".

This fallacy can be avoided by demanding proof of knowledge/rite transfer, as opposed to outlining similarity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[BahadurShah]

Aside from the very good points made by mehdi, SK, makavelli, CMDaddy and leafs -

Of course all of these similarities do not prove that Islam adopted these symbols and rituals from the pagans,

Yes.

however it is intriguing to say the least.

No it isn't. You can pick any two religions and find a number of superficial similarities, and as SK and your own post both point out, it's a logical fallacy to assume the origin of the customs is related.

19th century spiritualist and scholar H.P. Blavatsky writes:

A bunch of nonsensical speculation based on incorrect facts ("Abraham is held until the present day by the Mohammedan Arabas as Saturn in the Kaaba" .. wat?)

No credible scholar of Islam would ever refer to Muslims as "Mohammedans."

I should mention that Saturday is Saturn in astrology, and consequently the day of the Sabbath. The 7th day of the week.

Muslims don't have any Sabbath per se. If any day could be pointed to as a sabbath, it would be Friday, which is a holy day for Muslims.

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Refuting the OP's myths on the Kaaba:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

I have been looking for an Islamic explanation for the rituals behind kaaba. As of yet I have not come across an explanation as to why they circumambulate seven times widdershins around the black box.

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

A common logical error is to compare superficial elements between religions and presume that they are linked through imitation or borrowing. This is certainly true for syncretistic religions, but is something that must be proven, not presumed. One cannot merely say "I notice a similarity between religious rites, therefore if A preceded B, then B is based on A".

This fallacy can be avoided by demanding proof of knowledge/rite transfer, as opposed to outlining similarity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

There are generally no "superficial elements" behind religious ceremony and ritual. There is always meaning behind a ritual, especially when it involves numbers and symbolic action which emulate the macrocosm or the divine, and I highly doubt that it was put together arbitrarily.

So, if there is lack of understanding why one performs a ritual, it would be logical to see if there is any history behind it.

Of course I know that there is often no "why", behind your beliefs. Because "the prophet said so" is sufficient enough, and reason is secondary. But for some, knowing why may help them.

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by leafs43

All I really read was that the OP believes the 7 rings around Saturn and that's it. Rings disappear and reappear around Saturn based on reflection from the sun. Nor is it explained that of those 7 they actually consist of hundreds of smaller rings.

Modern scientists, astronomers, etc...NASA has categorized Saturn as having seven main rings. Sure there are millions of particles and possibly thousands of smaller rings that make up the main ones, but they cannot be seen or distinguished either with telescopes or the naked eye.

[~Serpent~]

Originally Posted by BahadurShah

Muslims don't have any Sabbath per se. If any day could be pointed to as a sabbath, it would be Friday, which is a holy day for Muslims.

Yes but Jews do, and they are the source of the "Abrahamic" line.