Question for atheists

balls2wall · 10-19-2009, 11:36 AM

Do you guys think Lying is immoral?

If so, Why?

Im curious to hear the athiest prospective on this.

Daniepwils · 10-19-2009, 11:41 AM

Everyone's morality is different, so I am not sure if it is immoral to all atheists.

Personally, It depends on the situation. But if you are lying to someone to impress them or to get out of trouble, I think that is wrong.

LordDarwin · 10-19-2009, 11:43 AM

No not always. Here's a good example you might feel is relevant:

Lying to the Nazi's about hiding Jews in your attic...

Is that immoral?

balls2wall · 10-19-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordDarwin

No not always. Here's a good example you might feel is relevant:

Lying to the Nazi's about hiding Jews in your attic...

Is that immoral?

Why is it ever immoral?

psych · 10-19-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balls2wall

Why is it ever immoral?

why?

LordDarwin · 10-19-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balls2wall

Why is it ever immoral?

Because that's what I've been told to think since I was a little kid (fundy Christian parents) and it's now ingrained in me, just like: Never hit a woman under any circumstance etc.

...Morality is subjective, and basically I don't have an answer for that question, apart from that's what I was 'brainwashed' to believing when I grew up, and I still hold the belief that it's wrong to lie what the negative outweighs the good. It's the way I've been programmed to think, in a way.

dannyboy33 · 10-19-2009, 11:51 AM

all athesists do not have the same morals, so your question is invalid.

balls2wall · 10-19-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyboy33

all athesists do not have the same morals, so your question is invalid.

I am not asking for an absolute atheist position.

I am just curious to hear how atheist here feel about it, and why.

SDMuscleBuddy · 10-19-2009, 11:55 AM

When you lie successfully you receive an ill-gotten gain and someone else suffers for it.

For those who think it's OK to lie, then you must accept the consequences with no recourse when someone lies to you.

Harbinger · 10-19-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balls2wall

Do you guys think Lying is immoral?

If so, Why?

Im curious to hear the athiest prospective on this.

Are you going to tell your children about Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny?

Queequeg · 10-19-2009, 11:57 AM

Depends on what reason you are lying for.

balls2wall · 10-19-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harbinger

Are you going to tell your children about Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny?

Nah only Hanukkah and passover.

Tiffany Wantsmore · 10-19-2009, 12:14 PM

Lying isn't always immoral. Sometimes its the best thing to do.

If a lie gets the same end results as the truth would, but without upsetting anyone, then its better than telling the truth.

IronBuddhist · 10-19-2009, 12:22 PM

Is god the only reason christians don't lie?

Or is it that you don't want to let down your fellow man, you want to be a good person, you want to be respected and a liar is none of these things.

Your question is insulting. People are people and for most want to be a positive force in the world. No matter what invisible man in the sky they believe in.

tbonez3858 · 10-19-2009, 12:29 PM

Im not an atheist and Im not taking up for them..I do know there is a concept that states a mans word is all he has..Another words telling the truth isnt a moral obligation its an honor obligation. Meaning if my word cant be trusted then I cant be trusted..That goes beyond morality into human relations...

balls2wall · 10-19-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronBuddhist

Is god the only reason christians don't lie?

Or is it that you don't want to let down your fellow man, you want to be a good person, you want to be respected and a liar is none of these things.

Your question is insulting. People are people and for most want to be a positive force in the world. No matter what invisible man in the sky they believe in.

Lying is always positive force for some parties.

Cant make everyone happy.

An hero · 10-19-2009, 12:36 PM

Is lying immoral? No. Being a douche isn't immoral, it's just being a douche.

Harbinger · 10-19-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by An hero

Is lying immoral? No. Being a douche isn't immoral, it's just being a douche.

/thread

pikeamus · 10-19-2009, 12:53 PM

My ethical philosophy is a work in progress but so far it boils down to basing what I consider moral or immoral on what causes harm/suffering or creates the potential for harm/suffering. Thus a lie is only immoral if it causes harm or suffering or creates the potential for it. (Or more specifically causes more suffering than the truth but you get what I mean I'm sure).

The second clause ('if it creates the potential for...') I must admit I added because based just on the concept of causing harm/suffering I couldn't say that adultery is immoral. It feels like it is so my ethical philosophy should reflex that.

jimbob007 · 10-19-2009, 01:20 PM

Lying is unavoidable in life- if your wife/girlfriend asks if her ass looks big in a certain dress & you say yes it will create huge problems. If you work in a call centre & the customer says you do not care about my problems do you & you say no, then that will be trouble for you.

Queequeg · 10-19-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikeamus

My ethical philosophy is a work in progress but so far it boils down to basing what I consider moral or immoral on what causes harm/suffering or creates the potential for harm/suffering. Thus a lie is only immoral if it causes harm or suffering or creates the potential for it. (Or more specifically causes more suffering than the truth but you get what I mean I'm sure).

The second clause ('if it creates the potential for...') I must admit I added because based just on the concept of causing harm/suffering I couldn't say that adultery is immoral. It feels like it is so my ethical philosophy should reflex that.

sounds like negative utilitarianism.

Weightaholic · 10-19-2009, 02:08 PM

I lie about everything. I just lied about lying about everything.

wut?

pikeamus · 10-19-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queequeg

sounds like negative utilitarianism.

I am inclined towards utilitarianism (particularly negative utilitarianism), yes, though there are plenty of criticisms I can't sufficiently answer. As I said, a work in progress

Queequeg · 10-19-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikeamus

I am inclined towards utilitarianism (particularly negative utilitarianism), yes, though there are plenty of criticisms I can't sufficiently answer. As I said, a work in progress

such as?

pikeamus · 10-19-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queequeg

such as?

Would it reflect badly on me if I used wikipedia as a reminder and presented the arguments against utilitarianism in the order they appear on there?

Negative utilitarianism certainly seems like a much better formulation than the classical kind but mostly I was thinking of the difficulties of properly weighing the levels of suffering of different individuals against each other. Also the negative framing seems insufficient on it's own (at least in the way I phrased it above) as a world without life would be without suffering. I left it as an open 'plenty of criticisms...' to avoid having anyone grill me on the subject as I still have reading to do but I guess that didn't work.

Do you like idea yourself?

kingtego · 10-19-2009, 02:50 PM

Strong general question. Depends on the situation. Was Schindler wrong for lying about his protection of Jews? No. Is it wrong for a man to lie to a woman about his HIV diagnosis? Yes.

Queequeg · 10-19-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikeamus

Would it reflect badly on me if I used wikipedia as a reminder and presented the arguments against utilitarianism in the order they appear on there?

Not really but we would need a new thread.

Quote:

Negative utilitarianism certainly seems like a much better formulation than the classical kind but mostly I was thinking of the difficulties of properly weighing the levels of suffering of different individuals against each other. Also the negative framing seems insufficient on it's own (at least in the way I phrased it above) as a world without life would be without suffering. I left it as an open 'plenty of criticisms...' to avoid having anyone grill me on the subject as I still have reading to do but I guess that didn't work.

Do you like idea yourself?

It has it appeal but for me its based apon empathy, which renders it emotive rather than ethical

Large_Emu · 10-19-2009, 03:33 PM

LOL!! OP actually thinks the human race gets all our morals from religion! holy sh!t!

gekkoboy14 · 10-19-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balls2wall

Do you guys think Lying is immoral?

If so, Why?

Im curious to hear the athiest prospective on this.

If your going to provoke an argument, make it a worthwhile one

xb28k · 10-19-2009, 03:43 PM

It depends on the situation.

If you lie to protect others from harm, it's not immoral at all.
If you lie because you ****ed something up and don't want anyone to know about it, it's immoral.
If you lie because you don't want to hurt someones feelings I think it's immoral as well, as they have the right to know the truth in order to better themselves.