Full (Olympic) "ass to grass" Squats, a discussion

[Jay Rawd]

Alright, so I was talking to a CSCS named Jason and he said that there is ideal Squat depth for anyone. He said that the best squat is one with good form, and good form varies depending per person.

He says that the ideal squat form includes:

1. Toes pointed forward (at "12 O'clock")
2. Anterior Pelvic Tilt (butt out)
3. Chest high
4. Feet shoulder width apart

He says that number one is so that the quads can get the most activation, number 2 is so that the glutes can take away spinal compression, number 3 is for the same (and so you don't fall over(, and number 4 is similar to number 1, with a wider stance being a "girly" way of squatting, and done more to emphasize hamstrings and glutes.

Personally I think he is somewhat right, and somewhat full of crap.

As far as number 1 goes, I noticed that when by feet point a bit out, the pressure of my knees is gone. This might be because I have bad knees, but whatever protects them, I say is great. Number 2 is what I want to discuss in this thread though.

As many of us know, doing Ass to grass (hereon ATG) Squats causes one to go into a posterior pelvic tilt AT SOME POINT during the lift. This can be due to hamstring inflexibility (a common problem) and poor gluteal activation (another common problem). Of course, science tells us that this is very bad under a load because the compressive forces on the spine are too great, and this can cause injury.

Of course, any lift can cause injury but we want to lessen that chance.

Proponents of ATG Squats cite that torque on the patellofemoral joint is lessened and squats less than full ROM put the knee in a very vulnerable position, particularly the half squat where the end of the lift is where the knee is flexed at 90 degrees, which is cited as being the weakest angle for the knee joint. This would mean that if you want to save your knees, perform ATG Squats, and if you want to save your back, don't necessarily perform half squats but stop the squat at the point where your anterior pelvic tilt is about to reverse its position and your butt points downward.

So what do you guys think? Are ATG Squats ideal? This is a never ending discussion and I think that both sides need to recognize the other guy's argument and admit that all forms of squats but the body in a vulnerable position susceptible to injury.

The key here is to come to a conclusion where we find the ideal squart depth, though.

[Esc8p2NeverLand]

I've done ATG squats, half squats, parallel, just past parallel and I can say that as you pointed out, the full ATG squat seems to be a lot less painful on the knees (the lower back is another story). Up until a week ago, I was doing just past parallel and now that I reset my 5x5 I'm back to ATG squats. I've decided to give them a try again and see what comes of it.

For me personally, I feel I have more power coming out of the hole with ATG if I don't pause at the bottom. If I do a pause, my stamina is shot for the set. On the other hand, when I do just past parallel, I can do a slight pause and push forward fine.

Next week I will be where i left off with my just- past- parallel squats. Hopefully the ATG will do me just fine. Point being, I think you just have to try and see what benefits you the most. What do you feel more comfortable doing? What are you trying to gain from squatting?

[human_diode]

ATG will activate more glute, but no more quad activation than parallel, both equally as safe.

[CLK-GTR]

your toes should always be pointing in whatever direction your knees are moving. keeping them straight ahead is nonsense

i also take issue with point 4. if anything other than shoulder width apart is the 'girly' way, then why does every powerlifter ive ever seen squat this way? because you can lift more weight....the opposite of being 'girly'

[Jay Rawd]

your toes should always be pointing in whatever direction your knees are moving. keeping them straight ahead is nonsense

i also take issue with point 4. if anything other than shoulder width apart is the 'girly' way, then why does every powerlifter ive ever seen squat this way? because you can lift more weight....the opposite of being 'girly'

He says because this activates more glutes and hams which guys shouldn't care about.

Personally I think alot of CSCS's are high and mighty quacks who think their title gives them full authority about everything.

[Jay Rawd]

I've done ATG squats, half squats, parallel, just past parallel and I can say that as you pointed out, the full ATG squat seems to be a lot less painful on the knees (the lower back is another story). Up until a week ago, I was doing just past parallel and now that I reset my 5x5 I'm back to ATG squats. I've decided to give them a try again and see what comes of it.

For me personally, I feel I have more power coming out of the hole with ATG if I don't pause at the bottom. If I do a pause, my stamina is shot for the set. On the other hand, when I do just past parallel, I can do a slight pause and push forward fine.

Next week I will be where i left off with my just- past- parallel squats. Hopefully the ATG will do me just fine. Point being, I think you just have to try and see what benefits you the most. What do you feel more comfortable doing? What are you trying to gain from squatting?

Concerning your last point, did you completely miss the entire post? This isn't about what I want, it's about safety. Personal opinions and emotions are irrelevant.

[Esc8p2NeverLand]

Concerning your last point, did you completely miss the entire post? This isn't about what I want, it's about safety. Personal opinions and emotions are irrelevant.

"So what do you guys think? Are ATG Squats ideal? This is a never ending discussion and I think that both sides need to recognize the other guy's argument and admit that all forms of squats but the body in a vulnerable position susceptible to injury.

The key here is to come to a conclusion where we find the ideal squart depth, though."

You asked what I think, I told you. It just seems like there will never be a consensus. One person will say one thing and another a totally different thing. I put in my two cents and what I personally have experienced in hopes that others will too.
Isn't it obvious by now that no matter what facts, sources or medical documentation you put forth on which type of squat is optimal there will always be another behind it stating the opposite?

The best thing to do is to lay it all out there and let people try it for themselves. Though we're all physiologically similar, people still do vary quite a bit from one another.

I was always under the impression that going to parallel would save my knees, but the info you brought forth seems to be the contrary. And I have to agree with you on it. Since I've started going the full range of motion, my knees do not bother me one bit. My back, on the other hand, is always sore after squatting full range.

[Opies]

stop the squat at the point where your anterior pelvic tilt is about to reverse its position and your butt points downward.

this. pretty much end of discussion. Squat as deep as your hip flexibility lets you. If you break at the lower back and your but dips down, you've gone too far. Most people can go slightly below parallel which is good. If you can go ass to grass without breaking at the lower back, that is good too. If you can't break parallel, you should work on your hip flexibility to protect your knees.

Toes should point in whatever direction feel comfortable, whether that is straight ahead, our slightly outward.

Foot distance is based on the goal of the movement. If you want to emphasize quads, narrower is better, if you want to involve more hips, go wider.

There is definitely no perfect way to squat, as everyone's anatomy is different. And squatting with different technique builds different muscles.

[kimm4]

I think it varies per individual. When doing a squat you go down as far as your body comfortably allows you to. Some it's ATG, others slightly below parallel.

[gbg]

Since when do you go into a posterior pelvic tilt during a squat?

[VoxExMachina]

I think it varies per individual. When doing a squat you go down as far as your body comfortably allows you to. Some it's ATG, others slightly below parallel.

^ This. And overall (unless you have knee issues), I'd be worried about lower back health before knee health when it comes to choosing which form and how deep to squat.

[CLK-GTR]

He says because this activates more glutes and hams which guys shouldn't care about.

Personally I think alot of CSCS's are high and mighty quacks who think their title gives them full authority about everything.

it does activate the glutes and hams more, and thats why you can lift more weight doing it. to call it 'girly' just singles him out to be an idiot imo. see powerlifters squatting 1000lbs+ with a wide stance is anything but feminine.

[low blow]

I don't think point 1 is correct the way its stated...it should be knee goes over the big/2nd toe region when squatting and is aligned with the hip throughout the ROM.

If this happens then the only real thing that changes is the lengthening of the hip muscles .... and having them in a shortened position ie leg externally rotated and toe's pointed outward is exactly how PL'ers squat and give them a great biomechanical advantage.

[Pain!]

I think it varies per individual. When doing a squat you go down as far as your body comfortably allows you to. Some it's ATG, others slightly below parallel.

Precisely.

Since when do you go into a posterior pelvic tilt during a squat?

Never.

it does activate the glutes and hams more, and thats why you can lift more weight doing it. to call it 'girly' just singles him out to be an idiot imo. see powerlifters squatting 1000lbs+ with a wide stance is anything but feminine.

Describing him as an idiot is being polite.

My point:
Squat depth and form is determined by the individual's goals, period.

[Shortfuze]

"wider squats = girly way"

:/

[JiP]

The only people who say 'A2G' are tools who have just started squatting or guys who have squatted high for a long time and now think they're hot **** because they dropped their egos and started squatting properly. And they're most likely barely breaking parallel anyway.

[jesslifts777]

it does activate the glutes and hams more, and thats why you can lift more weight doing it. to call it 'girly' just singles him out to be an idiot imo. see powerlifters squatting 1000lbs+ with a wide stance is anything but feminine.

since when is feminine a bad thing?

[Gxp23]

since when is feminine a bad thing?

Did you even read his quote? Not to mention this threads 6 years old.