Maximizing Arachidonic Acid delivery to skeletal muscle

[Mfusick]

Exactly. IF you have to take something, then you should choose (baby) asprin vs. ibuprofren or another NSAID.

Ibuprofren has a much higher affinity for COX-2 - which is also why it is ascribed less gastric issues. COX-1 is responsible for decreasing gastrin secretion (i.e. less COX-1=more HCl).

Thanks for the answer. So far I have only take 1 single pill of Exederin during my 35 days so far. The rest of the time I just deal.. it is really not that bad or a big deal at all. My headaches are usually caffiene related anyways- not from the Xfactor.

[Mfusick]

The problem is, the route from adipose tissue to skeletal muscle is not a simple function of adipose 'releasing' the FAs into the blood stream. FAs are not soluble and have to be coupled with lipoproteins for plasma transport (an energetic process). Furthermore, skeletal muscle will be competing with other tissue for them, and typically relys on its own store of triacyglycerides for beta-oxidation (at rest).

Ultimately, you would not be getting close to the same concentration of ArA from adipose than when channeling it directly to skeletal muscle. This is no small idea, because ArA seems to be heavily dose-dependent. A slow yield of ArA from adipose is unlikely to perfom the same as a high-dose (Llewellyn mentions 1g, but I've found 2g to be the best).

So if I can ask- your saying that when you take Ara without food, or insulin at a specific optimal time like on empty stomach in morning, or Pre-workout- then more Ara is going to the skeletal muscle tissue (where you want it) and not to organs and fat and other areas of the body where it will be ineffective ? So 2 caps in morning or empty stomach and then 2 caps pre-workout would make sense?

That's what I'm doing right now.

But, Neuron, are you saying it would be more beneficial to take all 4 caps pre-workout?

Would all 4 caps at once make more sense than 2 and then two ? at optimal times?

This is no small idea, because ArA seems to be heavily dose-dependent. A slow yield of ArA from adipose is unlikely to perfom the same as a high-dose (Llewellyn mentions 1g, but I've found 2g to be the best).

without creating a legal issue- your basically saying (not reccomending) that personally you think that higher than 1000mg of Ara is effective ? And you run this yourself (not reccomending others do the same though...) ?

[alfonsillo]

I wonder how many side effects will develop long term supplementation of ARA and biosynthesis of prostaglandins and leukotrienes...

[Mfusick]

I wonder how many side effects will develop long term supplementation of ARA and biosynthesis of prostaglandins and leukotrienes...

Considering a normal western diet has a good amount of Ara in it naturally and that the supplement has actually been approved by the FDA for use in Baby Food- I don't think much.

Sure the dose of 1250mg is double the normal diet might deliver but I doubt it is that scary in terms of significant side effects for average person.

I think those prone to inflamation or arthritis might want to consider using it - but normal young adults should not worry much in my opinion

[dgault]

i took hemodraulix before, and it always seemed that my pumps were WAY crazier if i took it hour and half/ two hours before a workout. just my experience.

[GeneGnomeX]

Considering a normal western diet has a good amount of Ara in it naturally and that the supplement has actually been approved by the FDA for use in Baby Food- I don't think much.

Sure the dose of 1250mg is double the normal diet might deliver but I doubt it is that scary in terms of significant side effects for average person.

I think those prone to inflamation or arthritis might want to consider using it - but normal young adults should not worry much in my opinion

Newborns have dramatically different nutrient requirements, and 1250mg is much greater than the average Western like diet (50-300mg).

[1MoreRepUFool]

Newborns have dramatically different nutrient requirements, and 1250mg is much greater than the average Western like diet (50-300mg).

I thought that western diets were more 300mg -600mg.

Isn't there like 900mg of Ara in 10 eggs ?

[neuron]

Regardless as to what chronic administration of Arachidonic Acid may precipitate in causing...the point of ArA supplementation is short term (~1-2 months) elevations in omega-6 intake with the goal of increasing/enhancing muscle anabolism.

Studies with NSAIDS clearly show that the body seeks to maintain COX metabolite concentrations within a particular homeostatic range. While NSAIDS efficiently lower inflammatory markers acutely, chronic administration yields lesser results.

Applying this to ArA intake: it would be wise to supplement with ArA acutely to take advantage of the homeostatic latency - which is probably the result of downregulation of COX/PLA2 concentrations.

Nevertheless...further discussion should be taken to a different thread.

Thanks.

[alfonsillo]

Newborns have dramatically different nutrient requirements, and 1250mg is much greater than the average Western like diet (50-300mg).

im not an expert, but biosynthesis of prostaglandines and leukotrienes may be higher on a single dose supplementation than in little amounts through the diet along the day.

[GeneGnomeX]

I thought that western diets were more 300mg -600mg.

Isn't there like 900mg of Ara in 10 eggs ?

The paper is now giving me an error with the numbers I alluded to, but this one works: http://journals.cambridge.org/action...07114507761779

Habitual arachidonic acid intake was estimated to range between 110 and 270 mg/d with an average of about 175 mg/d. This is not unlike typical intakes reported for adults in Western countries7?9,18.

Nobody eats close to 10 eggs but bodybuilders, who usually throw away most of the arachidonic acid rich yolks anyway.

im not an expert, but biosynthesis of prostaglandines and leukotrienes may be higher on a single dose supplementation than in little amounts through the diet along the day.

Not likely, plus Americans consume the majority of their animal protein rich foods after 6:30pm so in the diet it would come from a large bolus as well. Referenced in Layne's latest paper I believe.

[chasinSKURT]

I think it'd be cool to try out Ara with AICAR.... but it's not even close to economically feasible.

[papagunz]

Would an insulinogenic workout drink (carbs/aminos) be negative in maximizing AA delivery to skeletal muscle? If so, would there still be benefit upon taking the full AA dose preworkout as suggested, or would another time (upon wakening, 60 mins post meal) be more effective in this case?

[GeneGnomeX]

I think it'd be cool to try out Ara with AICAR.... but it's not even close to economically feasible.

Why? Again... opposing pathways in skeletal muscle (that is if AA even does anything significant in humans which I still doubt it does).

[neuron]

Would an insulinogenic workout drink (carbs/aminos) be negative in maximizing AA delivery to skeletal muscle?

Yes.

If so, would there still be benefit upon taking the full AA dose preworkout as suggested, or would another time (upon wakening, 60 mins post meal) be more effective in this case?

The most effective would be during exercise when skeletal muscle LPL is the most active.

[chasinSKURT]

Why? Again... opposing pathways in skeletal muscle (that is if AA even does anything significant in humans which I still doubt it does).

I remember reading not long ago about AICAR, and it's ability to increase LPL expression in skeletal muscles, yet not in adipocytes. Perhaps it could beneficial in maximizing AA delivery?

[GeneGnomeX]

I remember reading not long ago about AICAR, and it's ability to increase LPL expression in skeletal muscles, yet not in adipocytes. Perhaps it could beneficial in maximizing AA delivery?

I think you are missing the big picture; even if it did, it would itself act on the skeletal muscle and AMPK activation is inhibitory on the anabolic pathway.

[neuron]

I think it'd be cool to try out Ara with AICAR.... but it's not even close to economically feasible.

Interesting idea.

It would also be wise to supplement with something like glycerol monostearate to ensure proper emulsificaiton.

http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/34/11/1056.pdf

Supplementing with GMS in this manner would also circumvent the problem of getting glycerol into the muscle (i.e. the great "osmotic" problem) due to the fact that it would attain further esterification in the enterocytes, ensuring proper myotrophic cellular absorption (pre-workout). Its beneficial osmotic properties would become relevant after de-esterification within the cell.






X-Factor/Presurge combo?

[ZDub212]

So in a fasted state, preworkout, or am I reading this incorrectly?

So...have a preworkout meal...wait 1.5 hours...take ArA...wait 15-30 minutes...workout?

[Blackjackcat]

So in a fasted state, preworkout, or am I reading this incorrectly?

So...have a preworkout meal...wait 1.5 hours...take ArA...wait 15-30 minutes...workout?

I think he stated that it would be best to take intra workout, but for convenience, the way you have it seems correct(I could be wrong).

[neuron]

So in a fasted state, preworkout, or am I reading this incorrectly?

So...have a preworkout meal...wait 1.5 hours...take ArA...wait 15-30 minutes...workout?

I think he stated that it would be best to take intra workout, but for convenience, the way you have it seems correct(I could be wrong).

^Correct

[Mfusick]

I started taking 2 caps in the morning when I wake up on empty stomach and another 2-3 caps pre workout- just before hitting the weights.

Thanks for the advice Neuron

[joemomma35]

is there any research on the 50 day suggestion? Last I heard there wasn't enough research done on this and that it was fairly arbitrary.

I've seen good results on x-factor and I'm wondering if I can extend the cycle another 25 days to finish up my semester

[BigPapiJR]

Out of curiousity, how do you all dose AA on non-lifting days?

[neuron]

I started taking 2 caps in the morning when I wake up on empty stomach and another 2-3 caps pre workout- just before hitting the weights.

Thanks for the advice Neuron

^This is a great dosing scheme.

[Mfusick]

^This is a great dosing scheme.

I owe you. Too bad I only have a few days left of my cycle

[Free Weight Friedel]

I owe you. Too bad I only have a few days left of my cycle

I'm taking 4 pre-workout and what a difference compared to spliting it 2-2!

[bigla2004]

Out of curiousity, how do you all dose AA on non-lifting days?

This

[Mfusick]

Out of curiousity, how do you all dose AA on non-lifting days?

I do 2 morning empty stomach... 2 afternoon or evening when empty stomach.

[piglesia]

this

x2...

[neuron]

x2...

I'm currently running X-Factor Advanced and I am dosing it: 4 caps pre-workout, and 2 caps/day on non-workout days. If I had another bottle I'd probably dose it 4/caps day.

Similarly, if I had the older formula, I'd dose it 8caps pre-workout and 4 caps/day on non-workout days.

The vasodilation from ArA is great, which makes dosing it pre-workout even more lucrative. I'm using this with Presurge and getting wicked pumps that are second to none from my supplementation experience.