One person's perspective on the recent FDA activity

[njmuscle66]

I posted this over in the suppl misc but it was suggested I repost it here as well since it is more relevant.

Over the last week I have seen the various flurry of posts concerning the end of the availability of OTC steroid and have grown increasingly frustrated by the discussions of shock and outrage over the past week or so.
-How could this happen? Easily! it was a loop hole in legislation that numerous opportunist supplement company owners exploited for financial gain. Fully knowing what they were doing was not legal and counting on federal agencies turning a blind eye for long enough for them to reap the rewards.

-What are we going to do know? How will I EVER gain muscle again? I even saw a post from a 15 year old wanting to stock up for when he is old enough to take these substances. Said poster had some impressive stats too. 5'10 and 150 lbs if I recall correctly. And now you wonder why the govt is stepping in. My son is a teenager and I am an informed person about these products. What about those parents who are less aware about what Johnny was buying at the local GNC.

Being one of the older forum members (as Illadelphia and others remind me about often) I was training and competing before prohormones and designer steroids came into existence. Creatine, Met-rx and some ephedrine was about as advanced it got back than, at least for me. When prohormones and designer steroids hit the market, being that I did not have to risk legal ramification, I did utilize them strategically within my training, and gains came at a slightly accelerated rate. However it was certainly not the "miracle supplement" and triggered gains of 20-30 lbs in LBM that is often stated on here. I think far too many people attribute gains in scale weight to that of LBM, and it is just not the case.

However the problem I have with the designer steroid era, (and I have posted this on here before) is that it created opportunity and access for people who did not have the proper training foundation or competitive goals to utilize anabolic steroids. I had 15 years or more of solid training before I ever utilized such products. Now we have 15 year olds (ok maybe they wait until eighteen if we are lucky) that can log onto a website and using mommy& daddy's credit card, can have a cycle on their door step within days. And unlike the underground AAS market where you have to be able to actually have a source, hope the source doesn't get popped, and/or package not being seized, with the OTC market your next cycle was just another credit card transaction away. So we see multiple cycles, double and triple methyls, etc.

I agree with others that the government has much more important issues to undertake then this. However the public pressure with the steroid scandals in baseball, the prevalent use of these products among high school students, and the general hysteria about steroids being the work of the devil-Well they turned a blind eye for awhile, but as we are seeing now, once they decided to act, they did so swiftly.

I know a large amount of board members might not have been training prior to the availability of these legal steroids, but their absence will force people to look more critically at their training methodology and nutrition protocol. I don't know about everyone but my interest in working out was not triggered by a desire to be some huge mass monster, but rather it being an activity I enjoyed doing and got a sense of accomplishment from. And now almost 30 years later, I still get the same feeling that I got back in the early 80'ss in the basement of my house, using a sand filled weight set I got for my 13th birthday. Over my past years on the board, that is what I feel is missing. I have always felt that working out was a lifetime activity, not for me to become the biggest badass on my block, or dream of a career as the next great pro bodybuilder, etc.

[J DIP]

sticky

[DanND33]

Originally Posted by njmuscle66

I posted this over in the suppl misc but it was suggested I repost it here as well since it is more relevant.

Over the last week I have seen the various flurry of posts concerning the end of the availability of OTC steroid and have grown increasingly frustrated by the discussions of shock and outrage over the past week or so.
-How could this happen? Easily! it was a loop hole in legislation that numerous opportunist supplement company owners exploited for financial gain. Fully knowing what they were doing was not legal and counting on federal agencies turning a blind eye for long enough for them to reap the rewards.

-What are we going to do know? How will I EVER gain muscle again? I even saw a post from a 15 year old wanting to stock up for when he is old enough to take these substances. Said poster had some impressive stats too. 5'10 and 150 lbs if I recall correctly. And now you wonder why the govt is stepping in. My son is a teenager and I am an informed person about these products. What about those parents who are less aware about what Johnny was buying at the local GNC.

Being one of the older forum members (as Illadelphia and others remind me about often) I was training and competing before prohormones and designer steroids came into existence. Creatine, Met-rx and some ephedrine was about as advanced it got back than, at least for me. When prohormones and designer steroids hit the market, being that I did not have to risk legal ramification, I did utilize them strategically within my training, and gains came at a slightly accelerated rate. However it was certainly not the "miracle supplement" and triggered gains of 20-30 lbs in LBM that is often stated on here. I think far too many people attribute gains in scale weight to that of LBM, and it is just not the case.

However the problem I have with the designer steroid era, (and I have posted this on here before) is that it created opportunity and access for people who did not have the proper training foundation or competitive goals to utilize anabolic steroids. I had 15 years or more of solid training before I ever utilized such products. Now we have 15 year olds (ok maybe they wait until eighteen if we are lucky) that can log onto a website and using mommy& daddy's credit card, can have a cycle on their door step within days. And unlike the underground AAS market where you have to be able to actually have a source, hope the source doesn't get popped, and/or package not being seized, with the OTC market your next cycle was just another credit card transaction away. So we see multiple cycles, double and triple methyls, etc.

I agree with others that the government has much more important issues to undertake then this. However the public pressure with the steroid scandals in baseball, the prevalent use of these products among high school students, and the general hysteria about steroids being the work of the devil-Well they turned a blind eye for awhile, but as we are seeing now, once they decided to act, they did so swiftly.

I know a large amount of board members might not have been training prior to the availability of these legal steroids, but their absence will force people to look more critically at their training methodology and nutrition protocol. I don't know about everyone but my interest in working out was not triggered by a desire to be some huge mass monster, but rather it being an activity I enjoyed doing and got a sense of accomplishment from. And now almost 30 years later, I still get the same feeling that I got back in the early 80'ss in the basement of my house, using a sand filled weight set I got for my 13th birthday. Over my past years on the board, that is what I feel is missing. I have always felt that working out was a lifetime activity, not for me to become the biggest badass on my block, or dream of a career as the next great pro bodybuilder, etc.

^^^ agreed especially that last part

[J DIP]

However the problem I have with the designer steroid era, (and I have posted this on here before) is that it created opportunity and access for people who did not have the proper training foundation or competitive goals to utilize anabolic steroids. I had 15 years or more of solid training before I ever utilized such products. Now we have 15 year olds (ok maybe they wait until eighteen if we are lucky) that can log onto a website and using mommy& daddy's credit card, can have a cycle on their door step within days. And unlike the underground AAS market where you have to be able to actually have a source, hope the source doesn't get popped, and/or package not being seized, with the OTC market your next cycle was just another credit card transaction away. So we see multiple cycles, double and triple methyls, etc.

^^the part that stood out the most for me.

[AKMass]

Some very good points.

However, I am so weary of having my choices limited by "its for the children" excuses. The government needs to butt out of the adults lives.

[getbig_ttt]

Originally Posted by AKMass

Some very good points.

However, I am so weary of having my choices limited by "its for the children" excuses. The government needs to butt out of the adults lives.

Well then the supplement industry need to butt out of kids lives. Im sure a lot could have been done by supplement companies/stores to avoid kids using ph/ds. A lot more then just saying ''21+'' on the bottle. (a lot were only 18+ btw)

[Slimshady01]

nice post,

Im 33 and just now going to start a PH.

glad i didnt mess with them when i was younger and im still worried at 33 lol.

[Big_Spaz]

*Spaz stands up and applauds*


You hit it right on man. I 100% agree. Great post.





-Spaz

[dvsness]

Originally Posted by njmuscle66

Fully knowing what they were doing was not legal and counting on federal agencies turning a blind eye for long enough for them to reap the rewards.

Everyone seems to overlook this. People - these products didn't need to be banned - THEY WEREN'T LEGAL TO BEGIN WITH. Sheesh.

Thanks for your post, Chuck. I'm glad someone else gets it.

[dvsness]

Originally Posted by Slimshady01

nice post,

Im 33 and just now going to start a PH.

glad i didnt mess with them when i was younger and im still worried at 33 lol.

Stats: 5'10", 160 lbs

[~Hades~]

Originally Posted by AKMass

However, I am so weary of having my choices limited by "its for the children" excuses. The government needs to butt out of the adults lives.

How do you not understand that adults are the problem, too? Not long ago there were a few threads about a guy who took Havoc for 5-6 months and is now suing for damages.

This has been brought on by all ages of people trying to get big quick with no understanding of what they are consuming.

[SaviorSix]

Yes, that is great. However the freedom of grown adults to consume products which they choose to should not be taken away by the monolithic nanny-state federal government.

Should there be regulations about product labelling? Yes - consumers must know EXACTLY what they are purchasing - but beyond that - YOU, or I, or the GOVERNMENT do NOT have ANY SAY in what someone else chooses to eat/take/drink, so long as that decision does not harm others.

[Beejis60]

Originally Posted by njmuscle66

So we see multiple cycles, double and triple methyls, etc.

I understand and completely agree with everything but this line. What are you trying to say here? Are you saying cycles having more than one 17a-methyllated steroid in them? Or is it a play on a buzzword?

[naturalguy]

GREAT post Chuck.

It is unfortunate that the younger guys don't take the time to learn their craft (training & eating). I didn't even know what a supplement (I am talking about regular stuff like creatine, etc.) was for my first 2 years of training. The gym I went to back then was all about training and eating, you pay your dues there first before you even think about supplements. Never mind designer PH/DS's.

[J DIP]

Originally Posted by ~Hades~

How do you not understand that adults are the problem, too? Not long ago there were a few threads about a guy who took Havoc for 5-6 months and is now suing for damages.

This has been brought on by all ages of people trying to get big quick with no understanding of what they are consuming.

^^^

Age is moot anyways. Someone who is 20 with 3 years of experience in Bodybuilding, knows more than a 42 year old who never touched a weight and is now entering the game. So stuff like that is going to happen regardless, when the average consumer who doesn't use an outlet like this for a hobby.. where all they see is something that looks like a supplement because it's in a pretty bottle at a "health" store...I don't expect them to comprehend what that is.

[XCriticalBenchX]

Awesome post, thats all I can really say as you hit everything straight on! Those who wish to compete and the like, I can't see this detouring them one bit. All this is really going to detour, is those who wish to take the easy way out to gain quick muscle. This will not affect true bodybuilders and those who want a better physique who research, have legit sources, etc.

[njmuscle66]

Originally Posted by Beejis60

I understand and completely agree with everything but this line. What are you trying to say here? Are you saying cycles having more than one 17a-methyllated steroid in them? Or is it a play on a buzzword?

Just to clarify that is exactly what I meant. Stacking superdrol and Phera, or products like Spawn and others that combined products. If you can not grow off of 20mg of Superdrol or a similar compound a day for 3-4 weeks, it is not a question of stacking more steroids, you need to look at your training and nutrition. Enough with the class one/class two bullsh*t, bridging, pulsing, etc

Just as an aside, in the AAS world (if you are even lucky enough to have a "source") your selection is dependent on inventory, availability, etc. And that might be quite limited. However in the OTC steroid world, dealers (I am using this wording for a reason), the on-line distributor of these products, were always open, stock was plentiful and delivery was almost instaneous. Take a look at some of the stash pictures or posts in the forums.

[Beejis60]

Originally Posted by njmuscle66

Just to clarify that is exactly what I meant. Stacking superdrol and Phera, or products like Spawn and others that combined products. If you can not grow off of 20mg of Superdrol or a similar compound a day for 3-4 weeks, it is not a question of stacking more steroids, you need to look at your training and nutrition. Enough with the class one/class two bullsh*t, bridging, pulsing, etc

Okay, because the 2nd scenario I was thinking you maybe were mentioning made zero sense.
As for pulsing... ya that was COMPLETE bullshyt and whoever thought that was a good idea deserves to have bitch tits.

Take a look at some of the stash pictures or posts in the forums.

Yep, that's true. My stash used to be around 30 bottles deep but I got rid of most of that and am now left with 2 or 3 bottles of Havoc and that's it. All these "time to stock up" statements piss me off too and I don't know why

[deserusan]

Originally Posted by dvsness

Everyone seems to overlook this. People - these products didn't need to be banned - THEY WEREN'T LEGAL TO BEGIN WITH. Sheesh.

Thanks for your post, Chuck. I'm glad someone else gets it.

True. They also put perfectly legal bodybuilding products in harms way as well. I'm working on a lengthy blog about this right now. The take away message here is that people need to wake up and support the current regulations/law (DSHEA, GMP, etc) before new laws are passed which limit access to things like creatine, natty test boosters, compounds that are DSHEA compliant, etc. It seems both Senator Hatch and Senator Spector fully support the current laws and are dissappointed both the FDA and DEA don't do a good job enforcing them. If DSHEA and GMP were enforced, we wouldn't be facing these "bans" so to speak.

Anyway, I agree 1000% Chuck. It's nice to see a perspective on here that mirrors my own for once. The regulatory environment has changed drastically in the past 18 months or so and companies need to adapt to it instead of trying to capitalize on lack of enforcement.

[Big_Spaz]

Originally Posted by naturalguy

GREAT post Chuck.

It is unfortunate that the younger guys don't take the time to learn their craft (training & eating). I didn't even know what a supplement (I am talking about regular stuff like creatine, etc.) was for my first 2 years of training. The gym I went to back then was all about training and eating, you pay your dues there first before you even think about supplements. Never mind designer PH/DS's.

Exactly right Eric.


I'm going to reminise here a bit but back in 1997 when I started lifting (Powerlifting) at R-A's Fitness Factory I walked into the dingy old Warehouse and talked to Ross (the owner). I told him "I want to get big man" and he just laughed.

He didn't tell me to go to BB.com and get this DS or that Prohormone. He looked me right in the eyes and said "Get an Inzer belt, get a pair of Chuck Taylor's and eat until your full .... and then eat some more".


And that's what I did for honestly the first 5 years of my lifting career. Sure I didn't look the greatest, I was getting fatter and bigger, but I was as strong as an ox.






-Spaz

[Shreddersteve]

The OP os missing the most important point. If we were to ban all substances that were potentially harmful then we'd no longer have aspirin. Slippery slope is slippery. For every 50 responsible drinkers there's 5 alcoholics. Underage drinking is on the rise and more underage drinkers die in alcohol related deaths each year. Should we ban alcohol to "save the children"? Alcohol and tobacco are far more plentiful than steroids. It's not hard for a 15 year old to get drunk. I guess we should ban alcohol, right. By your logic we should ban alcohol. Taking away rights from the responsible majority because of the irresponsible minority is not Constitutional! If you don't like that then move to another country. Those of us who believe in personal responsibility and individual freedoms should be mad as hell at the recent actions of the federal government!

[Lector606]

Originally Posted by njmuscle66

Just to clarify that is exactly what I meant. Stacking superdrol and Phera, or products like Spawn and others that combined products. If you can not grow off of 20mg of Superdrol or a similar compound a day for 3-4 weeks, it is not a question of stacking more steroids, you need to look at your training and nutrition. Enough with the class one/class two bullsh*t, bridging, pulsing, etc

Just as an aside, in the AAS world (if you are even lucky enough to have a "source") your selection is dependent on inventory, availability, etc. And that might be quite limited. However in the OTC steroid world, dealers (I am using this wording for a reason), the on-line distributor of these products, were always open, stock was plentiful and delivery was almost instaneous. Take a look at some of the stash pictures or posts in the forums.

The number of times a 16-18 year old has come into the store I work in and said something like "hey I've been on this supplement M1T my friend gave me, 2 pills a day for a few weeks, I'm not gaining anymore should I take more or do you have something stronger?" is really sad. The ignorance is astonishing. I'm all for letting people do whatever they want with their bodies, but anyone BUYING DS/PH should have to pass a test to demonstrate that they understand the risks they are taking and how to minimize them. I have the same belief about the vast majority of rec drugs incidentally. I know M1T isn't legal in Canada but there are tons of stores that push it on people left right and center. When I was about 16 I almost got talked into buying it by some guy who said that it would increase my natural hormone production and that I could just do 2 weeks on/2 off for a couple months and no PCT. I am soooooo glad I searched and read about it on the forums because I was literally 2 mins from buying the stuff.

[Al Swearengen]

great post but when's everyone jumping on the alcohol ban? if you all truly feel this way then alcohol should go as well because it kills kids and adults at rate much higher than any supplement ever has and it's still advertised on TV. \end rant

of course i don't want to see alcohol banned and i don't even drink but i would like to see the TV advertising being taken down i mean who needs TV ads to try new booze except young people. i believe they (PH's) should be available for adults through easily obtainable prescriptions and not sent to hell for being the evil they aren't.

[dvsness]

Originally Posted by Shreddersteve

By your logic we should ban alcohol.

Nothing that is not ALREADY ILLEGAL is being banned. It's just being enforced, not a new law.

[INGENIUM]

Originally Posted by deserusan

The regulatory environment has changed drastically in the past 18 months or so and companies need to adapt to it instead of trying to capitalize on lack of enforcement.

this.

[fitnfirm]

Originally Posted by naturalguy

GREAT post Chuck.

It is unfortunate that the younger guys don't take the time to learn their craft (training & eating). I didn't even know what a supplement (I am talking about regular stuff like creatine, etc.) was for my first 2 years of training. The gym I went to back then was all about training and eating, you pay your dues there first before you even think about supplements. Never mind designer PH/DS's.

what percentage of parents are even able to teach the craft ? In school the coaches dont have much time to spend with each child to instill
good habits. Someone has to teach them and it should start early in childhood. Most parents work and some 2 jobs this is some
of the reason children listen to friends and end up mislead. Its not the childrens fault its the parents.

[SaviorSix]

Originally Posted by Shreddersteve

The OP os missing the most important point. If we were to ban all substances that were potentially harmful then we'd no longer have aspirin. Slippery slope is slippery. For every 50 responsible drinkers there's 5 alcoholics. Underage drinking is on the rise and more underage drinkers die in alcohol related deaths each year. Should we ban alcohol to "save the children"? Alcohol and tobacco are far more plentiful than steroids. It's not hard for a 15 year old to get drunk. I guess we should ban alcohol, right. By your logic we should ban alcohol. Taking away rights from the responsible majority because of the irresponsible minority is not Constitutional! If you don't like that then move to another country. Those of us who believe in personal responsibility and individual freedoms should be mad as hell at the recent actions of the federal government!

Exactly!

In addition, in this age of convenience - where nobody wants to put in hard work for ANYTHING, failure is rewarded, and "everybody is a winner", is anyone really surprised that people will gravitate towards products that they think will give them something for nothing?

[Shreddersteve]

Originally Posted by dvsness

Nothing that is not ALREADY ILLEGAL is being banned. It's just being enforced, not a new law.

Anabolic steroids SHOULD NOT BE ILLEGAL!


*facepalm*

[truckerman79]

Originally Posted by Shreddersteve

The OP os missing the most important point. If we were to ban all substances that were potentially harmful then we'd no longer have aspirin. Slippery slope is slippery. For every 50 responsible drinkers there's 5 alcoholics. Underage drinking is on the rise and more underage drinkers die in alcohol related deaths each year. Should we ban alcohol to "save the children"? Alcohol and tobacco are far more plentiful than steroids. It's not hard for a 15 year old to get drunk. I guess we should ban alcohol, right. By your logic we should ban alcohol. Taking away rights from the responsible majority because of the irresponsible minority is not Constitutional! If you don't like that then move to another country. Those of us who believe in personal responsibility and individual freedoms should be mad as hell at the recent actions of the federal government!

Repped for libertarian principles and fan of Meshuggah.

[Big_Spaz]

Originally Posted by SaviorSix

Exactly!

In addition, in this age of convenience - where nobody wants to put in hard work for ANYTHING, failure is rewarded, and "everybody is a winner", is anyone really surprised that people will gravitate towards products that they think will give them something for nothing?

I hate the 'everyone wins, nobody loses' mentality. I don't buy that one bit and I preach that to my now 7 year old son that it's bogus. You either win or you lose.

I tell him do your best, but if you don't win that's ok. But try harder for next time. I don't celebrate losing, I teach him that it's not something you WANT to do but it's part of life. And that has taught him to crave winning. Celebrate when he does win and if he doesn't win then lose gracefully.

I personally HATE to lose. I absolutely despise it. Like the iForce deadlifts for reps contest. Sure it was just a fun thing at the O but me not winning it has me spitting nails. I am not a sore loser, I just like being a winner better. I've always been that way and will never change.




-Spaz