How much protein per meal article

[double gonad]

I ran across this today on the Tmuscle site and wanted to get some thoughts on it.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a..._about_protein

Here's the pubmed link to the study referenced in the article. It's just the abstract; I don't have the ability to look at the full study (assuming that would be of consequence anyway).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056590

Here's the topic that interested me:

The Final Answer to "How Much Protein at Once?"

The two most commonly asked protein questions are "How much do I need per day?" and "How much can my body utilize in one sitting?" Well, we may actually now have the answer to the latter.

"Everyone wants to know what the optimal dose of protein is," said Lowery. "How much can you digest at once? Well, most people will say about 30 grams. But that's usually based on a plausibility argument based around how much protein you should eat in a day broken down over six meals. Now we may know the actual answer to that question based on a new study."

This year, Tarnopolsky's lab did a study (2) to examine the effect of how different dosages of egg protein powder affected protein synthesis rates. Researchers had healthy men who had previous weight training experience perform intense resistance exercise and consume an egg protein drink that contained either 5, 10, 20, or 40 grams of protein.

Basically, Lowery explained that researchers found that increasing protein intake stimulated protein synthesis in a dose dependent manner up to 20 grams of protein, after which there was no further increase in protein synthesis. In other words, forty grams didn't stimulate protein synthesis greater than 20 grams.

Researchers speculated that consuming 20 grams of protein five or six times daily would be the optimal measure to increase anabolism and muscle mass.

"Now," says Lowery, "You may still want to eat more than that for volume purposes since you've got to eat something, but the answer to the question is 20 grams... at least with egg protein. And I bet we see different proteins tested over the next year."

I asked Dr. Lowery how this new info is causing him to alter his own protein intake.

"I've actually cut back on the amount of protein I eat at any given time. I just make sure I spike it with leucine. I usually put a scoop and a half, about 7 or 8 grams, of leucine in just 20 grams of protein. But I've stopped sucking down 50 or 60 grams of protein at a time. I just don't do that anymore; I don't think it has that much benefit. Plus this prevents me from becoming a protein oxidizer or burner."

I asked if this changed his total protein intake per day.

"For me, not that much really. Twenty to thirty grams every few hours, spiked with leucine. I'm getting between 180 and 210 grams per day."

"Which brings me to another point," continued the Doc. "There may be benefits to separating protein/leucine boluses.

Lowery was referring to the "protein pulse" approach that Biotest has been studying for some time now.

"There were a few French researchers ? the name I remember is El-Khoury ? who found about a 15% improvement in anabolism by taking a 'pulse feeding' approach to protein intake."

Essentially, while traditional dogma has urged lifters to keep a steady-state flow of amino acids in the blood stream, the new thinking indicates that it might be best to let amino acid levels fall and then introduce a protein bolus.

Wow, let the discussions begin on that stuff! And let's hope the guys in snazzy lab coats study casein and whey soon.

[snorkelman]

There's research with rats, old women, young women, etc.

In 1999 a study was done Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Arnal, et al, Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 69:1202-1208 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full...f22dee5df28cee ) involving elderly women which had them consuming 80% of the daily protein intake during one meal (the pulse pattern) which showed that the pulse pattern was more efficient in improving nitrogen balance than a spread pattern composed of 4 meals that equalized the daily protein intake over the feeding period. However, this effect was not observed in young women
Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. J Nutr. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/...0f67fc5f4fe4a8


See also, Pulse protein feeding pattern restores stimulation of muscle protein synthesis during the feeding period in old rats.
Arnal MA, Mosoni L, Dardevet D, Ribeyre MC, Bayle G, Prugnaud J, Patureau Mirand P.
J Nutr. 2002 May;132(5):1002-8.
PMID: 11983828
Online at http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/5/1002

There's gonna be a difference between protein retention and optimal amounts at one setting for muscle protein synthesis. I'd like to see more research in general on the topic of pulse feedings with the athletic male population.


OP I took a look at the study you referenced and note that they concluded that 40 grams of egg protein caused no greater muscle protein synthesis than did 20 grams of egg protein on subjects after weight training (4 sets of 3 exercises). Essentially they set an upper limit at 20 grams of egg protein because there was no difference between 20 and 40 grams. Now, they didn't look at anything in between 20 and 40 grams, so we don't know how 25 or 30 or 35 grams would have responded.

30 grams was looked at recently, in Moderate Serving of High-Quality Protein Maximally Stimulates Skeletal Muscle Protein Synthesis in Young and Elderly Subjects Symons et. al, Journal of the ADA, Volume 109, Issue 9, Pages 1582-1586 (September 2009).

So is the limit 20 or 30? When you look back at the study I referenced above
Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. J Nutr. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/...0f67fc5f4fe4a8
You must ask yourself is there really going to be any real difference in protein retention whether you "go over" some arbitrary limit, whether it is claimed to be 20 grams or 30 grams?

[double gonad]

I always thought it didn't really matter at all but this has me thinking for sure. It's not uncommon for me to down 100g or more of protein within a few hours post-workout. I'm now wondering if this is a good idea.

[TaoistWarrior]

There's research with rats, old women, young women, etc.

In 1999 a study was done Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Arnal, et al, Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 69:1202-1208 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full...f22dee5df28cee ) involving elderly women which had them consuming 80% of the daily protein intake during one meal (the pulse pattern) which showed that the pulse pattern was more efficient in improving nitrogen balance than a spread pattern composed of 4 meals that equalized the daily protein intake over the feeding period. However, this effect was not observed in young women
Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. J Nutr. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/...0f67fc5f4fe4a8


See also, Pulse protein feeding pattern restores stimulation of muscle protein synthesis during the feeding period in old rats.
Arnal MA, Mosoni L, Dardevet D, Ribeyre MC, Bayle G, Prugnaud J, Patureau Mirand P.
J Nutr. 2002 May;132(5):1002-8.
PMID: 11983828
Online at http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/5/1002

There's gonna be a difference between protein retention and optimal amounts at one setting for muscle protein synthesis. I'd like to see more research in general on the topic of pulse feedings with the athletic male population.


OP I took a look at the study you referenced and note that they concluded that 40 grams of egg protein caused no greater muscle protein synthesis than did 20 grams of egg protein on subjects after weight training (4 sets of 3 exercises). Essentially they set an upper limit at 20 grams of egg protein because there was no difference between 20 and 40 grams. Now, they didn't look at anything in between 20 and 40 grams, so we don't know how 25 or 30 or 35 grams would have responded.

30 grams was looked at recently, in Moderate Serving of High-Quality Protein Maximally Stimulates Skeletal Muscle Protein Synthesis in Young and Elderly Subjects Symons et. al, Journal of the ADA, Volume 109, Issue 9, Pages 1582-1586 (September 2009).

So is the limit 20 or 30? When you look back at the study I referenced above
Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. J Nutr. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/...0f67fc5f4fe4a8
You must ask yourself is there really going to be any real difference in protein retention whether you "go over" some arbitrary limit, whether it is claimed to be 20 grams or 30 grams?

Reps for a good post.

True they didn't examine between 20 and 40, but the data seems to suggest that the 20 gram dose is nearly maximal.

I think the idea of 20 grams several times a day, hand in hand with the 6 small meals a day theory, isn't that well supported in research for young athletic individuals or bodybuilders.

Layne Norton's research in this area is often cited, but I believe he theorizes that it's not amino acid concentration which matters, but CHANGES in amino acid concentration which stimulate anabolism. For AA concentration to rise, it must reach a baseline first- which infers that fewer, smaller meals are more optimal for anabolism. Why? Because if you continually infuse AAs, you only get that anabolic spike with the first feeding- when AA changes from baseline to elevated. Keep infusing, and the AA concentration never refracts to allow it to rise again and trigger the anabolic response.

Very interesting area right now.

[Confuzzl3dOn3]

Hmm...if u only can get in 20g each time for muscle growth, u'll need to eat like every 1-2 hrs in order to hit the protein target for those big BBers that take in 200g+ per day

[Sarah Gold]

Something I posted in another forum but it completely relevant...

Interesting that egg protein was studied rather than other sources BECAUSE:

There is something called the Protein Digestibility-Corrected Amino Amcid Scoring system that is used by government agencies (not just our own) to classify proteins. Basically a long fancy term for does it have all the essential amino acids and rates its digestibility.

The highest score possible is 1.0- meaning it contains all essential AA

***EGGS- 1.0
Milk Protein- 1.0
Beef/poultry/fish- 0.82-0.92

Plant Proteins:
Soybean- 1.0
Kidney beans- 0.68
Whole wheat bread- 0.4


anyway, you will need MORE plant proteins and other proteins lower on the scale to get all your amino acids..so maybe this would have an effect on the results..

for example maybe you would need 22g of poultry per meal instead of 20g egg...



"In God We Trust...everybody else: bring data."


EMMA-LEIGH GET IN HERE!!!

[sunngodd]

If there is a maximum, what would happen to the excess protein? Could it still be used for protein sythesis later?

[ilove2run]

EMMA-LEIGH GET IN HERE!!!

x2........

[Sarah Gold]

If there is a maximum, what would happen to the excess protein? Could it still be used for protein sythesis later?

proteins broken down to amino acids. AAs arent stored in the body. there isnt really an amino acid pool like there is for fat (stored in adipose tissue...) and carb (as glycogen). amino acids are used for synthesis of proteins in the body. extra is metabolized further and eliminated from body.

[Emma-Leigh]

proteins broken down to amino acids. AAs arent stored in the body. there isnt really an amino acid pool like there is for fat (stored in adipose tissue...) and carb (as glycogen). amino acids are used for synthesis of proteins in the body. extra is metabolized further and eliminated from body.

There is a MASSIVE amount of amino acids that 'sort of' acts as an a.a pool - just happens to be muscle. So not all that helpful to mobilise it in light of failure to meet obligatory requirements...

And only so much can be stored once you eat more than your requirements (both in regards to obligate requirements for enzyme production/ hormones/ tissue repair and then in regards to muscle growth).

Then the excess proteins are deaminated and shuttled into cellular energy pathways for use (can do this either via glucogenic or ketogenic means), or storage (either as glycogen or adipose)...

If you want to read layne's article it is attached.... pretty interesting....

[Sarah Gold]

[QUOTE=Emma-Leigh;392007961]There is a MASSIVE amount of amino acids that 'sort of' acts as an a.a pool - just happens to be muscle. So not all that helpful to mobilise it in light of failure to meet obligatory requirements...
QUOTE]

what i meant by not having a pool of AAs is that your body doesnt say "oh maybe ill need these amino acids later, better put them somewhere". yes the AAs are in your muscle and every other protein in your body and avaliable to the body in catabolic states, but its not really stored for that purpose.


guess summary of all this is eat enough protein so your muscles dont get broken down, but excess is just excess. everybody differs in their protein requirements. we all (here on bb) probably eat more protein that our body NEEDS, but hey, gotta eat something and meat tastes good.

[JC480]

Good & very interesting article. I skimmed through it and haven't studied it in depth...although I will this weekend.

Things that immediately come to mind...
- There is another study of protein ingestion FREQUENCY that showed ingestion more frequent than, say, 3 hours has diminished effects...I'm sure other people here can reference it
- The bioavailability of egg is 100...whey would be 103 or 104 as I recall and an isopure might be a couple points higher...not sure how much effect this would have
- Assuming 3 hour ingestion, it is difficult to get the amounts of protein that the "bodybuilding collective" has recommended (1-1.5g per lb of LBM) when you limit yourself to 20g per sitting

With the OTHER needs the body has for protein, in addition to desired anabolism....I find it hard to believe that 20g is the limit that body can process...this goes against common sense. Our hunter ancestors were opportunistic feeders and gorged themselves on meat when it was available...if the body only processed 20g of protein at a time they would have problems meeting requirements during the time between kills.

I'm not a scientist and could never dispute this study as a professional...but something is missing here and I'm not quite sure what it is.

[MP4AU]

My father is a physician and was an amateur cyclist and weightlifter in his earlier years. He read dozens of books in the 80's so some of his research is a little outdated, but it should still be relatively accurate. He has always told me a few things that many people have debated over in the bodybuilding community. One is that weight loss in all about calories in calories out. Two is that the body can only absorb for muscle ingestion is around 20 grams of protein per sitting. I know he has told me the time to space out protein intake but I can't recall it. I would think though that if you ate 30 immediately post workout your body would absorb as much as possible for muscle repair and use some of the remainder for other protein uses.

[n8nazty]

Does anybody have any idea how practical it would be to pulse feed with glutamine or stack their leucine boluses with glutamine?

Also, if I recall correctly, I've read about how creatine and amino acids are shuttled to the muscle more quickly if not more efficiently by way of insulin spikes.

Should the leucine leucine/glutamine boluses be delivered via high-glycemic, sugary drinks?

[Emma-Leigh]

Does anybody have any idea how practical it would be to pulse feed with glutamine or stack their leucine boluses with glutamine?

Also, if I recall correctly, I've read about how creatine and amino acids are shuttled to the muscle more quickly if not more efficiently by way of insulin spikes.

Should the leucine leucine/glutamine boluses be delivered via high-glycemic, sugary drinks?

^
what would be your purpose?

[n8nazty]

^
what would be your purpose?

I'm asking if there is a purpose. Glutamine and Leucine are among the most widely peddled amino supplements, perhaps even in league w/ the BCAA complex. Leucine is the 4th most abundant amino acid in skeletal muscle. Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in skeletal muscle. Do you see any practical purpose for pulse feeding w/ glutamine between meals in the manner that is suggested of leucine?

[Emma-Leigh]

I'm asking if there is a purpose. Glutamine and Leucine are among the most widely peddled amino supplements, perhaps even in league w/ the BCAA complex. Leucine is the 4th most abundant amino acid in skeletal muscle. Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in skeletal muscle. Do you see any practical purpose for pulse feeding w/ glutamine between meals in the manner that is suggested of leucine?

no.

[BFJ]

yes insulin is involved in their uptake/use. as for specific AAs it's obvious leucine is important for protein synthesis. for how much per meal and all those specifics look up layne norton's stuff. he's one who's really interested in all this and is also doing PhD research on it (note: if the article we're talking about here was by layne, my bad, i did not get a chance to check out the link). good luck and train hard.

[TaoistWarrior]

I'm asking if there is a purpose. Glutamine and Leucine are among the most widely peddled amino supplements, perhaps even in league w/ the BCAA complex. Leucine is the 4th most abundant amino acid in skeletal muscle. Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in skeletal muscle. Do you see any practical purpose for pulse feeding w/ glutamine between meals in the manner that is suggested of leucine?

I don't believe there is because leucine alone is insulinogenic, albeit not on the level a sugary drink would be at isocaloric dosages.

Glutamine - another story - seems to be one of the most contentious issues on these boards.

[sunngodd]

Just thinking out loud here: how are we defining "at once?" If I eat a chicken breast, it isn't digested in 4 hours is it? Wouldn't the protein from said chicken breast be used gradually as it digests?

[Emma-Leigh]

Just thinking out loud here: how are we defining "at once?" If I eat a chicken breast, it isn't digested in 4 hours is it? Wouldn't the protein from said chicken breast be used gradually as it digests?

It isn't 'all at once'.... There will be a peak of digestion at x amount of time after ingestion (and the exact point this curve will peak will depend on what you eat with/ before/ after the chicken etc)...

So yes, as the amino acids are released into the blood stream they are used/ metabolised/ distributed as they become available....

[Analyst]

Good & very interesting article. I skimmed through it and haven't studied it in depth...although I will this weekend.

Things that immediately come to mind...
- There is another study of protein ingestion FREQUENCY that showed ingestion more frequent than, say, 3 hours has diminished effects...I'm sure other people here can reference it
- The bioavailability of egg is 100...whey would be 103 or 104 as I recall and an isopure might be a couple points higher...not sure how much effect this would have
- Assuming 3 hour ingestion, it is difficult to get the amounts of protein that the "bodybuilding collective" has recommended (1-1.5g per lb of LBM) when you limit yourself to 20g per sitting

With the OTHER needs the body has for protein, in addition to desired anabolism....I find it hard to believe that 20g is the limit that body can process...this goes against common sense. Our hunter ancestors were opportunistic feeders and gorged themselves on meat when it was available...if the body only processed 20g of protein at a time they would have problems meeting requirements during the time between kills.

I'm not a scientist and could never dispute this study as a professional...but something is missing here and I'm not quite sure what it is.

I agree with your doubts. Frankly, what I'd like to see is a controlled study comparing body composition results among groups that either "pulse" feed protein, or eat it in incremental amounts throughout the day.

[jcolson]

I ran across this today on the Tmuscle site and wanted to get some thoughts on it.

The Final Answer to "How Much Protein at Once?"

Ok, so this is my only question: What was the size / muscle mass / training level of the subjects.

I am sure a lean, 200 lb man with an accelerated training level could more than double the amount of protein synthesized after a workout than a 160 lb man new to strength training could.

There are a lot of factors here. Just a thought.

Still, I never thought adding a ton of protein to the diet would be the answer.

[jcolson]

Hmm...if u only can get in 20g each time for muscle growth, u'll need to eat like every 1-2 hrs in order to hit the protein target for those big BBers that take in 200g+ per day

This is exactly what I am talking about.

If it is true that the average (180 for example) man can assimilate 20g of protein per sitting around 5-6 times per day, then wouldnt that mean a 360 lb man could assimilate 40g 5-6 times per day.

Another question is: How often could the protein meals be consumed?

[Analyst]

Very interesting follow-up to this study: here's another, reported today on Science Daily...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1026125543.htm

"We knew from previous work that consuming 30 grams of protein -- or the equivalent of approximately 4 ounces of chicken, fish, dairy, soy, or, in this case, lean beef -- increased the rate of muscle protein synthesis by 50 percent in young and older adults," said associate professor Douglas Paddon-Jones, senior author of a paper on the study published in the September issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association. "We asked if 4 ounces of beef gives you a 50 percent increase, would 12 ounces, containing 90 grams of protein, give you a further increase?"
. . .
"In young and old adults, we saw that 12 ounces gave exactly the same increase in muscle protein synthesis as 4 ounces," Paddon-Jones says. "This suggests that at around 30 grams of protein per meal, maybe a little less, muscle protein synthesis hits an upper ceiling. I think this has a lot of application for how we design meals and make menu recommendations for both young and older adults."

Unfortunately, the news report doesn't indicate whether the subjects were fasted, nor does it indicate any sort of appropriate time period between meals.

Edit: here's the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

I guess a worthy question might be: if 30 grams/meal maximizes muscle protein synthesis/lbm gain, and if meal spacing must be, say, 3-5 hours for repeating the effect, are the gains on higher levels of daily protein reported by trainers/bodybuilders contrary to these findings, or are they the result of eating so much protein per day that the "bases are covered", so to speak?

One more edit: I'd have been interested in seeing whether the form of protein and its composition (e.g. leucine content, as Layne Norton likes to discuss -- note that 30 grams of beef protein which they found to be the "maximum" that promoted muscle protein synthesis would normally contain about 2.5 grams of leucine, which is pretty close to the amount Layne's identified--3 grams -- as a maximum) would have made a difference, and whether they controlled for bodyweight.

Final edit, I promise: As Alan Aragon and others have pointed out, net muscle gains are the product not just of protein synthesis, but also the inhibition of protein breakdown. In other words, this research article may not tell the whole story.

-A