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  1. #1
    wears U G G's Ted Nugent's Avatar
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    muscle protein synthesis...how long??

    about a week ago i came across an article or a study (not sure) that was about muscle protein synthesis and training. the article basically said that the protein synthesis in the muscle returned to normal levels approxiamtely 48 hrs after being trained. The point of this was that even though your muscles may physcially feel sore 2 days after a workout they are recharged and ready to be stimulated again after about 48 hours. has anyone came across something similar or have any info on this??
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    Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    about a week ago i came across an article or a study (not sure) that was about muscle protein synthesis and training. the article basically said that the protein synthesis in the muscle returned to normal levels approxiamtely 48 hrs after being trained. The point of this was that even though your muscles may physcially feel sore 2 days after a workout they are recharged and ready to be stimulated again after about 48 hours. has anyone came across something similar or have any info on this??
    Pavel Tsatsouline mentions something similar to this in his book Power! To The People. With the proper amount of sleep and protein intake, I do not see why this couldnt be possibe
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    Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    about a week ago i came across an article or a study (not sure) that was about muscle protein synthesis and training. the article basically said that the protein synthesis in the muscle returned to normal levels approxiamtely 48 hrs after being trained. The point of this was that even though your muscles may physcially feel sore 2 days after a workout they are recharged and ready to be stimulated again after about 48 hours. has anyone came across something similar or have any info on this??
    This is one of the reasons why 'once a week' training isn't *really* optimal in most people in order to maximise training response.

    If you are interested you should do some research on the 'super-compensation' curve and optimising frequency to maximise adaptation /hypertrophy....
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    Registered User snorkelman's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure that Matthew Perryman says this in his book Maximum Muscle
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    From wernborm's massive review, they found that working a muscle 2 x per week is almost twice as good as hitting the muscles once per week, but there was hardly any difference between 2 and 3 times per week. (Thats the practical implications of it all anyway) Also it supports why some programs are so good anecdotally.. ws4sb, upper lower splits, layne's power/hypertrophy, DC etc


    anyway, some reading:

    MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, et al. The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise. Can J Appl Physiol 1995; 20: 480-6

    Chesley A, MacDougall JD, Tarnopolsky MA, et al. Changes in human muscle protein synthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 1992; 73: 1383-8
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    Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    about a week ago i came across an article or a study (not sure) that was about muscle protein synthesis and training. the article basically said that the protein synthesis in the muscle returned to normal levels approxiamtely 48 hrs after being trained. The point of this was that even though your muscles may physcially feel sore 2 days after a workout they are recharged and ready to be stimulated again after about 48 hours. has anyone came across something similar or have any info on this??
    While generally true that peak protein synthesis rates occur about 3 - 24 hours after training and generally remain elevated for 48 - 72 hours after training and that training while sore hasn't produced a significant exacerbation in muscle damage and recovery impairment in the limited research done, there are others notibly done with eccentric exercise that have shown force production impairment beyond the two days.

    So while that may be all well and good for say someone who is doing low volume Olympic-style lifting for strength and power where muscle damage, imflammation, force impairment, nervous system effects et. al. is small, someone performing a high volume of muscle damaging work would have a high probably of non-compliance with that type of frequency.

    Protein synthesis, satellite cell activation, anabolic hormones, etc are just one piece of the puzzle and other factors such as ROM and force production restoration, net recovery abilities and training load need to be taken into consideration in the short term. There are always trade-offs. Then longer term program compliance, which often is hampered by systemic fatigue and in soft and connective tissue overuse injuries should be considered.

    So while increased frequency is more towards optimal given appropriate training load, it needs to be placed within proper context.
    Last edited by in10city; 09-30-2009 at 06:30 AM.
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  7. #7
    Does I have catabolismz? TaoistWarrior's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    While generally true that peak protein synthesis rates occur about 3 - 24 hours after training and generally remain elevated for 48 - 72 hours after training and that training while sore hasn't produced a significant exacerbation in muscle damage and recovery impairment in the limited research done, there are others notibly done with eccentric exercise that have shown force production impairment beyond the two days.

    So while that may be all well and good for say someone who is doing low volume Olympic-style lifting for strength and power where muscle damage, imflammation, force impairment, nervous system effects et. al. is small, someone performing a high volume of muscle damaging work would have a high probably of non-compliance with that type of frequency.

    Protein synthesis, satellite cell activation, anabolic hormones, etc are just one piece of the puzzle and other factors such as ROM and force production restoration, net recovery abilities and training load need to be taken into consideration in the short term. There are always trade-offs. Then longer term program compliance, which often is hampered by systemic fatigue and in soft and connective tissue overuse injuries should be considered.

    So while increased frequency is more towards optimal given appropriate training load, it needs to be placed within proper context.
    So many great topics/discussions in the Advanced Nutrition forum today!

    So what would we consider high volume, for the purposes of this discussion? Training frequency is a hugely important topic for bodybuilders. If only the bros were as concerned with this as they are with supps.
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  8. #8
    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TaoistWarrior View Post
    So many great topics/discussions in the Advanced Nutrition forum today!

    So what would we consider high volume, for the purposes of this discussion? Training frequency is a hugely important topic for bodybuilders. If only the bros were as concerned with this as they are with supps.
    While I guess it's a matter of perspective, M&F and Flex usually display routines with moderate to high volume - one of their M - Thu split [2x/week] averaged 8-10 sets to failure per muscle group with a few forced reps and drops sets thrown in for good measure. Try compressing that to M - W - F.

    While it might seem obvious to some, many don't get over the mental block that training volume and load are generally inversely proportional to frequency and are reluctant to make that adjustment since the desire the hit the muscle from eleventibillion angles isn't dropped. And that's were people run into trouble.
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  9. #9
    Lack of iron &or sleeping SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    A more interesting question for me would be: WHEN does the highest level of protein synthesis occur?

    - Immediately after workout (typical decay curve)

    Or

    - During the sleep following a workout - if so, is it better to train in the afternoon?
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  10. #10
    Registered User snorkelman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    A more interesting question for me would be: WHEN does the highest level of protein synthesis occur?

    - Immediately after workout (typical decay curve)

    Or

    - During the sleep following a workout - if so, is it better to train in the afternoon?
    I believe the research supports a finding that the peak of MPS is about 24 hours after the exercise. This is exactly why it's important to keep your protein levels adequate even on non-lifting days.
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  11. #11
    Lack of iron &or sleeping SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by snorkelman View Post
    I believe the research supports a finding that the peak of MPS is about 24 hours after the exercise. This is exactly why it's important to keep your protein levels adequate even on non-lifting days.
    That's interesting - not what I expected.... but when do you actually have to eat to supply the raw materials at the right time?
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    Originally Posted by wobemaster View Post
    From wernborm's massive review, they found that working a muscle 2 x per week is almost twice as good as hitting the muscles once per week, but there was hardly any difference between 2 and 3 times per week. (Thats the practical implications of it all anyway) Also it supports why some programs are so good anecdotally.. ws4sb, upper lower splits, layne's power/hypertrophy, DC etc
    Just for clarification what is a week (in this case) defined as? 7 days? Or 5?

    It sounds like a stupid question but many define their 'lifting' week as Monday-Friday with the regular M/W/F training split.
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    Does I have catabolismz? TaoistWarrior's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wobemaster View Post
    From wernborm's massive review, they found that working a muscle 2 x per week is almost twice as good as hitting the muscles once per week, but there was hardly any difference between 2 and 3 times per week. (Thats the practical implications of it all anyway) Also it supports why some programs are so good anecdotally.. ws4sb, upper lower splits, layne's power/hypertrophy, DC etc


    anyway, some reading:

    MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, et al. The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise. Can J Appl Physiol 1995; 20: 480-6

    Chesley A, MacDougall JD, Tarnopolsky MA, et al. Changes in human muscle protein synthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 1992; 73: 1383-8
    Does this vindicate, at least partially, the Hypertrophy Specific Training principles over the usual train each body part once per week theory? It seems that way.

    All my fears of overtraining... all my ideas about optimal training frequency... pointless. Sob sob sob.

    Emma, what's your opinion on this issue, specifically to training splits? Monday upper heavy, Tuesday lower heavy, wednesday off, thursday upper lighter, friday lower lighter? That's how I trained when I first got serious about it, and saw some great results, but I was relatively new to training so it's hard to guage whether it was newb gains or the protocol. Or both?

    I know you said to do research, but there just seem to be lots of opinions. I'd love to hear yours.
    Last edited by TaoistWarrior; 10-02-2009 at 12:54 PM.
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    While I guess it's a matter of perspective, M&F and Flex usually display routines with moderate to high volume - one of their M - Thu split [2x/week] averaged 8-10 sets to failure per muscle group with a few forced reps and drops sets thrown in for good measure. Try compressing that to M - W - F.

    While it might seem obvious to some, many don't get over the mental block that training volume and load are generally inversely proportional to frequency and are reluctant to make that adjustment since the desire the hit the muscle from eleventibillion angles isn't dropped. And that's were people run into trouble.
    many people fail to comprehend the basic intensity, volume and frequency relationship which is so important to success or the lack there of. there is only so much that individuals can recover from enough to continue progression in each workout or week or month. everyone has to find that amount of each that works for themselves and build from that.
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    Originally Posted by TaoistWarrior View Post
    Does this vindicate, at least partially, the Hypertrophy Specific Training principles over the usual train each body part once per week theory? It seems that way.

    All my fears of overtraining... all my ideas about optimal training frequency... pointless. Sob sob sob.

    Emma, what's your opinion on this issue, specifically to training splits? Monday upper heavy, Tuesday lower heavy, wednesday off, thursday upper lighter, friday lower lighter? That's how I trained when I first got serious about it, and saw some great results, but I was relatively new to training so it's hard to guage whether it was newb gains or the protocol. Or both?

    I know you said to do research, but there just seem to be lots of opinions. I'd love to hear yours.
    ^The training program that worked for you as a noobie will continue to work for you in the future... as long as it incorporates:
    1. correct frequency to maximise adaptive response
    2. progressive loading / increased time under tension
    And this is the core of why HST works for most people too...
    ^
    These are the basic principles that are the corner stones of results. So if you fail to incorporate these into a program, you'll fail to gain.*

    As I mentioned above, the super-compensation curve is key to finding the correct frequency. This is basically seen in this image:

    ^ if you want to maximise your response to any training program, you need to hit your muscles at a frequency such that you are at the top of the wave (stage III).
    If you leave it too long then you start to 'involute' and will essentially be taking two steps forward and one step back each time (stage IV)...
    If you cut it too short (stage II) you'll not maximise your growth potential, and you'll also run the risk of not allowing enough time to even meet the basics of the REPAIR process - which will eventually lead to a one step forward, two steps BACK pattern (such that you end up with injury and overtraining syndrome).

    For MOST trainee's a frequency of 3-5 days is when you will 'peak out' on that curve... But this is VERY variable as it depends on things such as age, training history, volume of your training programs, nutrition status, *assistance*, and also the intensity at which you are training...

    Which brings me to progressive loading -->>
    And by this I mean that you essentially need to create a progressively increasing stressor (load/ TUT) which acts as the force/ mechanism to which you 'adapt'.

    The specific adaptation that occurs (strength, hypertrophy, endurance) will depend on where the stressor sits in regards to intensity/ muscle unit recruitment (that is, where you are loading in regards to your 1 RM) which also relates to the energy system you target (aerobic/ anaerobic).

    Broadly speaking.... If you want maximal HYPERTROPHY, then most studies have found that a load of between 75-85% of your 1 RM (which is about 5 to 10 reps) creates maximal hypertrophic responses of both type I and type II muscle fibres....
    If you want maximal STRENGTH, then the higher the intensity, the greater the response (which means you want loads ABOVE 85% your 1 RM - or under 5 reps).
    If you want ENDURANCE then anything below 70-75% 1 RM (above 12 reps) is what usually works the best....
    And once you know what range you are working in you need to ADVANCE in that stress over time (either in a linear fashion - or in a undulating/ periodisation type pattern)... eg: A program could start with 75% your 1 RM and, over the course of 12-16 weeks, increase such that you are using 85% your 1 RM....

    Volume is also something that you can add as a stressor over time - but it is much more limited in it's effect. Reason being is that there comes a point where more volume simply creates trauma at a submaximal load (due to fatigue)... Which can cause you to slide down the curve instead of moving up...

    Once again these are very (very) variable and will depend on age, sex, physiological status, *assistance*, etc etc.... And most people find that in order to see good global gains they need to work across a variety of rep ranges (3-15) such that they maximise responses in all muscle fibres, as well as creating better neural firing, and 'sarcoplasmic expansion' (which is a fancy way of saying that you look buff and improve your glycogen stores, vascularity and muscle supporting structures).


    * = as long as nutritional requirements are meet too
    Last edited by Emma-Leigh; 10-04-2009 at 12:00 AM.
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    Does I have catabolismz? TaoistWarrior's Avatar
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    Thank you for that great reply Emma. You're a great resource.
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    Originally Posted by TaoistWarrior View Post
    Thank you for that great reply Emma. You're an angel
    Fixed
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    quick question.. did the article say how many sets they did for a body part to determine how long after the protein synthesis was raised?

    would people doing a higher volume of work then the study possibly have increased protein synthesis in the muscles that lasts longer??
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    Not Swimming. Emma-Leigh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gonna_be_big View Post
    quick question.. did the article say how many sets they did for a body part to determine how long after the protein synthesis was raised?

    would people doing a higher volume of work then the study possibly have increased protein synthesis in the muscles that lasts longer??
    Did you even read my post?
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    emma-leigh is it true that when glycogen is depleted protien sythesis is increased and this slows as glycogen stores are replenished. ive seen it recommended that only protien should be consumed after training leaving glycogen depleted for aslong as possible so as not to effect the next workout. when commenting on this it was said that artificial insulin may need to be micro dosed in order for greater transportation however thats a different discussion and is not for this board any longer.

    thanks
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    Originally Posted by MarkGates View Post
    emma-leigh is it true that when glycogen is depleted protien sythesis is increased and this slows as glycogen stores are replenished. ive seen it recommended that only protien should be consumed after training leaving glycogen depleted for aslong as possible so as not to effect the next workout. when commenting on this it was said that artificial insulin may need to be micro dosed in order for greater transportation however thats a different discussion and is not for this board any longer.

    thanks
    You may interested in these - the inhibitory effects of low glycogen levels on a number of hypertrophic pathways [reduced Atk, Myogenin, etc...]

    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/99/3/950
    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...t/01260.2006v1

    Glycogen depletion also activates AMPk and likely inhibits mTOR protein synthesis [though human models haven't shown this conclusively].
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    You may interested in these - the inhibitory effects of low glycogen levels on a number of hypertrophic pathways [reduced Atk, Myogenin, etc...]

    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/99/3/950
    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...t/01260.2006v1

    Glycogen depletion also activates AMPk and likely inhibits mTOR protein synthesis [though human models haven't shown this conclusively].
    thanks for that i struggled to read them with no summary or conclusion, however from what i did take in it would seem that the lack of muscle glycogen has both postitive and negative effects on protien sythesis
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    Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh View Post
    Did you even read my post?
    yeah you said 3 - 5 days on average to be at the peak of the curve... my question is what sort of volume generally gets to that level? the first study mentioned said protein synthesis was peaked after 2 days then dropped so i wanted to know what sort of volume was used for that study, what you would consider the average volume to have the 3 - 5 day peak...
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    Push/Pull 2x per week ftw, imo.
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    sometimes we get carried away about all of this. eat big get big train heavy get stronger sleep well recover well your muscles will adapt to the stress you put them thru, so every time you hit the weights try to train harder then before, everything else in this life is complicated training should not be
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    Originally Posted by tennesse09 View Post
    sometimes we get carried away about all of this. eat big get big train heavy get stronger sleep well recover well your muscles will adapt to the stress you put them thru, so every time you hit the weights try to train harder then before, everything else in this life is complicated training should not be
    This is a terrible view on this.. Why the heck would you train if you weren't trying to get the most out of it..? Something as simple as how you eat isn't an extreme thing to change up to get a nice benefit from doing so.
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    Are some muscle groups best trained once a week? Twice a week?

    I have no idea what to do to make my calves, bis, or tris grow. I have tried once a week. Have tried twice a week. No real difference.

    feels bad
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    Originally Posted by OKPC View Post
    Are some muscle groups best trained once a week? Twice a week?

    I have no idea what to do to make my calves, bis, or tris grow. I have tried once a week. Have tried twice a week. No real difference.

    feels bad
    Twice a week is optimal and here article by Lyle on it.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...ass-gains.html
    Deficit itself, lower insulin & raise catecholamine response, resulting in fat loss.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=88428053&postcount=1565
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    Slightly off topic, but can you point me in the direction of the application to muscular strength more than hypertrophy Emma?

    I've been doing Crossfit Endurance to work on my fitness times and eventually a triathalon, and I'm trying to figure out the most efficient workout regime and eating regime. Would the Over-Compensation phase still be ~3-5 days? So basically 2 whole body workouts a week?

    Thanks in advance and I'll will keep looking around for the answer
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    Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    about a week ago i came across an article or a study (not sure) that was about muscle protein synthesis and training. the article basically said that the protein synthesis in the muscle returned to normal levels approxiamtely 48 hrs after being trained. The point of this was that even though your muscles may physcially feel sore 2 days after a workout they are recharged and ready to be stimulated again after about 48 hours. has anyone came across something similar or have any info on this??
    We kinda lost track in this thread, thats a good question im interested in the answer! If your sore for longer then 3 days, is it ok to workout that muscle group again even though it is slightly sore, and the person ate correctly?
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