No isolated exercises for beginners?

[jbyoun1990]

I heard beginners should initially stick with the compound exercises before getting into any isolated ones. Is it true and if so, how true is it (as in how strict should one follow it)?

[kman025]

yes its true.

[BigKev23]

I heard beginners should initially stick with the compound exercises before getting into any isolated ones. Is it true and if so, how true is it (as in how strict should one follow it)?

let's put it this way....
If you want the most out of your training you will stick to the compounds and get your strength up as much as possible.

OR

If you want to dick around, not follow programs/advice, and spend the next 3-5 years here making threads asking 'newbie needs advice on routine for hitting their outter brachii head for maximal pump and gain' while never getting above a buck 85, then you have that option as well.

As you've probably noticed, about 80% of bb.com has chosen the latter (not the wisest option)....you make the choice.

*Don't be a statistic* ;-)

[ironwill2008]

Isolation exercises aren't of the Devil; it's just that the vast majority of noobs do far too many sets of isos, rather than the much harder, but much more beneficial, compound lifts.

[Uk Lifter]

Do both, it really is that simple, as long as you don't go overboard you're not going to die. Who do you think will see better reults in the long run the guy doing:

3x5 Bench Press 1-2x per week

or

5x5 Bench Press
4x8 Incline Press
4x6 Dips

It's the same with things like arms, sure your arms will grow along with your body but what terrifying adverse effects do you think will happen if you add some curls and extensions? Isolation along with compound exercises are the key to a decent physique, if you think you'd be wasting energy doing some isolation work after your heavy lifts then bodybuilding is probably not for you.

[zephed56]

Do both, it really is that simple, as long as you don't go overboard you're not going to die. Who do you think will see better reults in the long run the guy doing:

3x5 bench press alternated w/overhead presses, 3 times a week, adding weight to the bar every workout until it doesn't work

or

5x5 Bench Press
4x8 Incline Press
4x6 Dips

once a week

It's the same with things like arms, sure your arms will grow along with your body but what terrifying adverse effects do you think will happen if you add some curls and extensions? Isolation along with compound exercises are the key to a decent physique, if you think you'd be wasting energy doing some isolation work after your heavy lifts then bodybuilding is probably not for you.

fixed your post and, especially for novices...

Very likely the first person will be stronger and bigger because he will progress more often and after any random period of time later he will be putting up heavier numbers than guy #2. Heavier weight stresses the muscles more. Doing heavy chins and presses will be more than sufficient for a novice.

Doing OTHER THINGS, like isolation at the end of your workout is going to increase the time needed for recovery and will not provide enough ADDITIONAL strength gain to make up for the increased recovery time. Adding 5 lbs a workout should work on bench for quite awhile for a novice. Making 10 lb jumps once a week is not going to last as long as smaller jumps more frequently.

[Uk Lifter]

fixed your post and, especially for novices...

Very likely the first person will be stronger and bigger because he will progress more often and after any random period of time later he will be putting up heavier numbers than guy #2. Heavier weight stresses the muscles more. Doing heavy chins and presses will be more than sufficient for a novice.

Doing OTHER THINGS, like isolation at the end of your workout is going to increase the time needed for recovery and will not provide enough ADDITIONAL strength gain to make up for the increased recovery time. Adding 5 lbs a workout should work on bench for quite awhile for a novice. Making 10 lb jumps once a week is not going to last as long as smaller jumps more frequently.

Additional strength gains? I wasn't aware that bodybuilding was primarily about being strong or having a big bench.

[Slow-N-Steady]

Isolation exercises aren't of the Devil; it's just that the vast majority of noobs do far too many sets of isos, rather than the much harder, but much more beneficial, compound lifts.

100% Agreed. There is nothing wrong with isolation exercises. When used, they should be secondary and compliment the compound lifts.

[zephed56]

Additional strength gains? I wasn't aware that bodybuilding was primarily about being strong or having a big bench.

haha.

Are you aware the two are very closely related? And which do you think is going to add more mass to your body? A 5x5x200 bench or a 5x5x250 bench?

Nobody gets big without also being very strong. You can get there fast or you can get there slow, your choice.

[Contract Killer]

You can not skip isolation exercises. How else are you supposed to learn the principles of form and function? You can't built amazing shoulders or pecs until you learn how to contract the muscle with 100% efficiency. Learning how to properly execute side laterals and flies will greatly improve your mind muscle link as well as intuition regards to how light or heavy to go.

[bigtallox]

You can not skip isolation exercises. How else are you supposed to learn the principles of form and function?

Deadlifting and squatting doesn't involve form and function? The vast majority of beginners do not squat or deadlift ( the smith machine does NOT count ), and the truth of the matter is that they would experience much better gains if they did. IMHO, beginner routines should focus around compound barbell exercises with a little isolation work thrown in. Once some basic strength is build then they can consider doing more isolation work if that works for them.

[bigtallox]

Isolation exercises aren't of the Devil; it's just that the vast majority of noobs do far too many sets of isos, rather than the much harder, but much more beneficial, compound lifts.

Personally I would equate isolation exercises to the devil, because like the devil they tempt people to do the wrong things. The beginners see all the fancy machines designed to work some small part of the body, and they're drawn in and then don't do the required hard work that builds mass/strength like squats and deads. IMHO, for the beginner, it's just easier to recommend no isolation ( or very little ) work until they have built up their strength levels with compound movements.

[Ironwake]

You can not skip isolation exercises. How else are you supposed to learn the principles of form and function? You can't built amazing shoulders or pecs until you learn how to contract the muscle with 100% efficiency. Learning how to properly execute side laterals and flies will greatly improve your mind muscle link as well as intuition regards to how light or heavy to go.

How are they supposed to work their specific muscles when they don't actually have muscles?

'You can't shape a pebble'

[elmagodelossema]

I heard beginners should initially stick with the compound exercises before getting into any isolated ones. Is it true and if so, how true is it (as in how strict should one follow it)?

Do you think you will get big arms without curls or CGBP? Do you think you will get big calves without working them? Do you think Dexter Jackson got big by doing only compounds? When you're a beginner, advanced, whatever you have to work the whole body even if it means doing curls. When you are told to stick to compound exercises we mean for you to bench not do flyes, to squat instead of doing leg extensions and to military press instead of doing front raises. The fact is that there are muscles (bis, calves) that won't be properly stimulated without direct isolation work. So unless you want to have an unbalanced physique, then work out your whole body and don't neglect bodyparts because 'isolation exercises are for pussies'

[(no radnes)]

Do you think you will get big arms without curls or CGBP? Do you think you will get big calves without working them? Do you think Dexter Jackson got big by doing only compounds? When you're a beginner, advanced, whatever you have to work the whole body even if it means doing curls. When you are told to stick to compound exercises we mean for you to bench not do flyes, to squat instead of doing leg extensions and to military press instead of doing front raises. The fact is that there are muscles (bis, calves) that won't be properly stimulated without direct isolation work. So unless you want to have a disbalanced physique, then work out your whole body and don't neglect bodyparts because 'isolation exercises are for pussies'

you have a disbalanced vocabulary (jus sayin)

[elmagodelossema]

you have a disbalanced vocabulary (jus sayin)

lol, sorry, I meant UNBALANCED physique there ya go

[bigtallox]

Do you think Dexter Jackson got big by doing only compounds?

That seems to be one of the standard arguments. But Dexter Jackson isn't a beginner by any means.

When you are told to stick to compound exercises we mean for you to bench not do flyes, to squat instead of doing leg extensions and to military press instead of doing front raises. The fact is that there are muscles (bis, calves) that won't be properly stimulated without direct isolation work.

That's your theory, but the real world proves otherwise. Yes, doing deadlifts is enough to stimulate your biceps to grow, *especially* for beginners. Squats and calves probably not as much, but there are far more important things to consider for beginners.

So unless you want to have an unbalanced physique, then work out your whole body and don't neglect bodyparts because 'isolation exercises are for pussies'

Hmm, nothing works your entire body better than deadlifting and squatting heavy. I think it's funny that you suggest that they build an unbalanced physique.

[elmagodelossema]

That seems to be one of the standard arguments. But Dexter Jackson isn't a beginner by any means.




That's your theory, but the real world proves otherwise. Yes, doing deadlifts is enough to stimulate your biceps to grow, *especially* for beginners. Squats and calves probably not as much, but there are far more important things to consider for beginners.



Hmm, nothing works your entire body better than deadlifting and squatting heavy. I think it's funny that you suggest that they build an unbalanced physique.

Do you think all of the big guys out there, pros or not, started out by logging in to bodybuilding.com and asking if they should do isolation work or not? I never said to do only isolation work, nor that compounds were evil, in fact i probably only do isolation work for my calves, traps and biceps. When you're a beginner you will explode everywhere so even typing in a computer will result in hypertrophy, the problem is that people won't build as much mass as they potentially could by neglecting a couple of key exercises like curls or calf raises. I myself fell into the trap of not doing any direct arm work and as a result, guess what, I had little arms. I never said that squatting and deadlifting build an unbalanced physique, neglecting muscle groups does. What beginners need to do is bust their balls really, if they have that down then, even if they're doing things 'wrong' they will grow like weed. The problem is when they start doing flyes instead of bench pressing or leg curls instead of squats, but can you really say that pullups or deadlifts will make one's biceps grow bigger than curls?

[Slow-N-Steady]

Deadlifting and squatting doesn't involve form and function? The vast majority of beginners do not squat or deadlift ( the smith machine does NOT count ), and the truth of the matter is that they would experience much better gains if they did. IMHO, beginner routines should focus around compound barbell exercises with a little isolation work thrown in. Once some basic strength is build then they can consider doing more isolation work if that works for them.

No one said that Deadlifting and Squats don't involve form or function. I also obviously agree that squats and deadlifts are more important than any isolation exercise, but that has nothing to do with anything. The point is that it is optimal to do both. It's not a one or the other situation.

[Sugoya_Chan]

Another newbie here and didn't want to start a new thread. I gather that ya'll are saying that isolation exercises shouldn't be my main concern as I'm a beginner, but what if I'm trying to rehab from an injury? Wouldn't it be wise for me to do isolation exercises for that area?

[bigtallox]

I myself fell into the trap of not doing any direct arm work and as a result, guess what, I had little arms.

Well, I fell into the trap of training like a pro bodybuilder when I wasn't and I didn't grow for YEARS. I switched to a powerlifting routine and I built TONS of muscle.

I never said that squatting and deadlifting build an unbalanced physique, neglecting muscle groups does.

You implied it. IMHO, the only way to neglect a muscle group is to do lots of isolation work. Squats and deads work everything and they're the way our body is designed to work.

What beginners need to do is bust their balls really, if they have that down then, even if they're doing things 'wrong' they will grow like weed.

So that's justification for them doing things wrong? If they do things right, they will grow more and will understand what's necessary for them to make progress for years.

but can you really say that pullups or deadlifts will make one's biceps grow bigger than curls?

Oh, absolutely I can. I haven't done curls in years, I used to do them all the time, my biceps are a good 2" bigger now then before ( find another guy with a 6'11" wingspan with 21.5" biceps. ). And deads/pullups will build muscle everywhere and you will become strong. Curls... nevermind I'm not going to say it some people will never get it.

[elmagodelossema]

Well, I fell into the trap of training like a pro bodybuilder when I wasn't and I didn't grow for YEARS. I switched to a powerlifting routine and I built TONS of muscle.



You implied it. IMHO, the only way to neglect a muscle group is to do lots of isolation work. Squats and deads work everything and they're the way our body is designed to work.



So that's justification for them doing things wrong? If they do things right, they will grow more and will understand what's necessary for them to make progress for years.




Oh, absolutely I can. I haven't done curls in years, I used to do them all the time, my biceps are a good 2" bigger now then before ( find another guy with a 6'11" wingspan with 21.5" biceps. ). And deads/pullups will build muscle everywhere and you will become strong. Curls... nevermind I'm not going to say it some people will never get it.

The problem here is that you don't understand what I'm trying to say. Compound movements like the squat, deadlift, overhead press etc... are the cornerstone and foundation of any sound program, the problem is that you misunderstood what I said. Correct me if I'm wrong but you understood what I said as "Squats and deadlifts and compounds don't work, if you do ONLY isolation you'll get huge." You say you haven't done curls for years, but after you stopped doing curls your biceps grew two inches. I bet that taking curls out of your program wasn't the only thing you did. You probably changed a hell of a lot of things along with taking curls out and you attribute you arm growth to not doing curls anymore. Now, I may be wrong what I previously said as applied to you, but you also have to take into consideration that you're 6'8'', that's TALL so what works for you might not work for others of average height due to the vastly different leverages between you and others. Please don't take out of context of what I said, my original point was and is that, when doing a sound program focusing on big lifts, isolation work for certain muscle groups that might not get as worked as others will help you out more than keeping them out.

[Slow-N-Steady]

You implied it. IMHO, the only way to neglect a muscle group is to do lots of isolation work. Squats and deads work everything and they're the way our body is designed to work.

Squats and Deads work a lot of muscle groups, but neglect a few. That is why we bench, military press, calf raise, weighted crunch, and row.

That's your theory, but the real world proves otherwise. Yes, doing deadlifts is enough to stimulate your biceps to grow, *especially* for beginners. Squats and calves probably not as much, but there are far more important things to consider for beginners.

Deadlifts stress the biceps even less than squats stress the calves....

Deadlifts do not efficiently stimulate bicep growth, as they don't even allow for muscle contraction. So this makes very little sense at all. On the other hand, rows effectively work the biceps.

[bigtallox]

You say you haven't done curls for years, but after you stopped doing curls your biceps grew two inches. I bet that taking curls out of your program wasn't the only thing you did.

Yes, absolutely. I stopped listening to everybody that said that squatting and deadlifting was dangerous ( especially for people my height ). I also stopped listening to the voice in my head that said I'd never bench heavy because I had long arms. None of those thoughts made me stronger or bigger, and I realized I wanted to be bigger and stronger. So for about 6 months I removed 99% of all the isolation work I was doing, and I started squatting, deadlifting, and benching heavy ( which wasn't ALL that heavy back then ), and my body really responded. After the 6 months or so, I did add in a limited amount of isolation work, but that was only to focus on weaknesses that my squat/bench/deadlift indicated that I had. Now my routine is focused on my squat/bench/dead ( and things like concentric goodmorings ) but I also do some tricep/upper back isolation work because I've found for me I need that to become bigger and stronger. Other people will need different things, but everybody needs the big 3 *first*, IMHO.

but you also have to take into consideration that you're 6'8'', that's TALL so what works for you might not work for others of average height due to the vastly different leverages between you and others.

Possibly, but I don't think so. I was the classic tall skinny hard gainer who thought nothing would "work". The truth of the matter was that I didn't know how to train, and I was afraid to eat because I thought I'd just gain fat. I was a tall skinny fat "hardgainer" who spent years not knowing how to train ( because I tried like what all the magazines said the pro bber's did ). The leverages comment is true, yes I have horrible leverages, but actually that just means it's harder for me to lift heavy weight, it doesn't mean that it's easier for me to build muscle ( but it does mean what muscle I do build is spread over a longer space ), so I feel my comment about my 21" biceps with 6'11" wingspan still is an indication that I know what works, *especially* for tall skinny guys who think they're hardgainers.

Please don't take out of context of what I said, my original point was and is that, when doing a sound program focusing on big lifts, isolation work for certain muscle groups that might not get as worked as others will help you out more than keeping them out.

OK, I guess I did take that out of context. I do agree there's a place for isolation work, but I think most beginners would make better progress from eliminating it all ( especially since they seem prone to doing to much of it instead of things like squats and deads because of excuses, excuses that I made for years and it resulted in not much gains too. )
.

[elmagodelossema]

Yes, absolutely. I stopped listening to everybody that said that squatting and deadlifting was dangerous ( especially for people my height ). I also stopped listening to the voice in my head that said I'd never bench heavy because I had long arms. None of those thoughts made me stronger or bigger, and I realized I wanted to be bigger and stronger. So for about 6 months I removed 99% of all the isolation work I was doing, and I started squatting, deadlifting, and benching heavy ( which wasn't ALL that heavy back then ), and my body really responded. After the 6 months or so, I did add in a limited amount of isolation work, but that was only to focus on weaknesses that my squat/bench/deadlift indicated that I had. Now my routine is focused on my squat/bench/dead ( and things like concentric goodmorings ) but I also do some tricep/upper back isolation work because I've found for me I need that to become bigger and stronger. Other people will need different things, but everybody needs the big 3 *first*, IMHO.



Possibly, but I don't think so. I was the classic tall skinny hard gainer who thought nothing would "work". The truth of the matter was that I didn't know how to train, and I was afraid to eat because I thought I'd just gain fat. I was a tall skinny fat "hardgainer" who spent years not knowing how to train ( because I tried like what all the magazines said the pro bber's did ). The leverages comment is true, yes I have horrible leverages, but actually that just means it's harder for me to lift heavy weight, it doesn't mean that it's easier for me to build muscle ( but it does mean what muscle I do build is spread over a longer space ), so I feel my comment about my 21" biceps with 6'11" wingspan still is an indication that I know what works, *especially* for tall skinny guys who think they're hardgainers.




OK, I guess I did take that out of context. I do agree there's a place for isolation work, but I think most beginners would make better progress from eliminating it all ( especially since they seem prone to doing to much of it instead of things like squats and deads because of excuses, excuses that I made for years and it resulted in not much gains too. )
.

You see, we're in the same page here. I completely understand and agree with the reasons for which you said that isolation exercises are complete bull****. Beginners have been 'brainwashed' into thinking that deadlifts are bad for your back, squats are bad for your knees, and that you need to do 50 sets of 12 crossovers for chest. And by telling them to not do ANY isolation work, and to be 'hardcore' you force the kid to respond. But what I didn't agree with you was when you were completely dissing ALL isolation work when you yourself just admitted to do some. A kid is far better off by going extreme on compounds than extreme on isolation.

[bigtallox]

But what I didn't agree with you was when you were completely dissing ALL isolation work when you yourself just admitted to do some. A kid is far better off by going extreme on compounds than extreme on isolation.

Yes I agree, we're on common ground.

I do some NOW that I know my body and where my weaknesses are. I'm also not a beginner, but IMHO I was prior to switching my workout to eliminating 99% of the isolation work ( I SHOULD have eliminated 100% but I was afraid of things I shouldn't have been afraid of, because none of it did anything for me up to then anyway ). It's much different doing isolation work because you understand your weaknesses, than doing isolation work just because you enjoy the pump in your biceps ( which doesn't mean sh_t for stimulating growth ). Yes, a kid is much better doing only compounds, and I think the same is true for all beginners.

[elmagodelossema]

Yes I agree, we're on common ground.

I do some NOW that I know my body and where my weaknesses are. I'm also not a beginner, but IMHO I was prior to switching my workout to eliminating 99% of the isolation work ( I SHOULD have eliminated 100% but I was afraid of things I shouldn't have been afraid of, because none of it did anything for me up to then anyway ). It's much different doing isolation work because you understand your weaknesses, than doing isolation work just because you enjoy the pump in your biceps ( which doesn't mean sh_t for stimulating growth ). Yes, a kid is much better doing only compounds, and I think the same is true for all beginners.

*shakes hands*

[bigtallox]

Deadlifts do not efficiently stimulate bicep growth, as they don't even allow for muscle contraction.

Yes they do, you must not deadlift heavy enough.

Sorry, but who are people going to believe a 22 year old who doesn't even post their stats, or somebody who has been lifting for 20+ years, who have made ALL of the mistakes but still has built tons of muscle even though I have the longest limbs of 99% of everybody on this forum. 6'8" 330 pounds of muscle, 21.5" biceps even with my 6'11" wingspan. I know what works, especially for the tall skinny hardgainers who think they can't build muscle.

[bigtallox]

*shakes hands*

Agreed.

[bigtallox]

Deadlifts stress the biceps even less than squats stress the calves....

Based on what? ( Sorry but that's one of the most rediculous statements I've heard )