Something you may find interesting

[willpower1]

(Slavery 1850's)

They are not persons but property
It is a personal issue and personal choice
It's a religious issue



(Abortion )

They are not persons but property
It is a personal issue and personal choice
It's a religious issue





Do you see that the same argument used to retain slavery is the same argument used to today to keep abortions legal? I think most of us would agreet that slavery was wrong and unjust even though the argument was presented for it, so why then if the same argument is presented you could still be for abortion?

[Beeewbs]

(Slavery 1850's)

They are not persons but property
It is a personal issue and personal choice
It's a religious issue



(Abortion )

They are not persons but property
It is a personal issue and personal choice
It's a religious issue





Do you see that the same argument used to retain slavery is the same argument used to today to keep abortions legal? I think most of us would agreet that slavery was wrong and unjust even though the argument was presented for it, so why then if the same argument is presented you could still be for abortion?

Because a fetus is not a human (for a while, at least). Black people are obviously human.

[dmacfour]

Fetus =/= Living human being

I don't consider it human until the brain/nervous system is active.

[jf1]

interesting that the south used the bible to justify slavery...

"Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "

Christians traditionally believed that Canaan had settled in Africa. The dark skin of Africans became associated with this "curse of Ham." Thus slavery of Africans became religiously justifiable.
The American slave owner felt that he was carrying out God's plan by buying and using slaves. "


http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm

your religion is soooooo full of fail!

[Forge3]

Two posts deleted by me. Stop with the name calling/personal attacks or don't bother to post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[all pro]

Because a fetus is not a human (for a while, at least). Black people are obviously human.

? You just said they weren't a person! Make up your mind.

[HersHasMuscles]

Because a fetus is not a human (for a while, at least). Black people are obviously human.

then what is it? if it's not a human, is it a dog? bird? ficus? what?

it's a freakin human being. just because it's in the womb, and it's small it makes it "non human"? no, it's just an excuse murderers use to make themselves feel justified when bringing a baby into their lives is inconvenient.

if a man kills a pregnant woman, he is tried for BOTH murders... the death of the woman and the death of the unborn child.

This is a living, breathing, growing, child. Your flesh and blood. A product of your own DNA.

[Beeewbs]

? You just said they weren't a person! Make up your mind.

Are you having reading problems?

then what is it? if it's not a human, is it a dog? bird? ficus? what?

it's a freakin human being. just because it's in the womb, and it's small it makes it "non human"?

Is an engine a car? Is a tire a car? Is my sperm a human? Is an egg a human? If I throw a bunch of eggs and a sperms into a pile, is that a pile of humans?

This is a living, breathing, growing, child. Your flesh and blood. A product of your own DNA.

Actually, it's not breathing until it's out of the mother. I guess you don't know much about birth.

[wide lats]

I think this abortion issue should be left to women, only they know what its like we as guys do not.

[all pro]

I think this abortion issue should be left to women, only they know what its like we as guys do not.

I agree with you. But I still don't think my tax dollars should be paying for the murder of their children.

[HersHasMuscles]

Fetus =/= Living human being

I don't consider it human until the brain/nervous system is active.

The nervous system enables the five classical senses (touch, taste, sight, smell, and sound). Nociception (the sensing of pain), and proprioception (the sensing of relative limb location and motion).

A "fetus", as we know has these senses. His palms and footpads are extremely sensitive to touch. His eyelids will squint in order to block bright light. They have a sense of gravity, as they move to get more comfortable. And it is proven that by only 12 weeks, 40% of the cerebral cortex is formed. The thalamus and sensory nerves are fully present at 8 weeks, therefore, a fetus can feel and react to pain.
Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away.
Try sticking an 8 week old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away.

My son would kick when my dog barked. We have an ultrasound picture of him sucking his thumb. He had hiccups.

So you can remove that little "/" between the equal signs, because a fetus IS a living human being.

[Harbinger]

? I spoke the truth. How can that be an insult?
P.S. calling me a troll only proves my point.
Liberals can't debate issues because that would force them to tell the truth. The only alternative that leaves is to attack the opposition personally. Rules For Radicals should be required reading for all people on the right. The Art Of War requires that you know and understand your enemy's tactics and this is war.

You seem to be the one afraid of the truth. Like it's a woman's prerogative to have an abortion and you and your religion have no say in it.

[Harbinger]

How did this become a religious debate? I group all totalitarians on the left. Guess where that puts catholic priests!

point taken.

[Beeewbs]

The nervous system enables the five classical senses (touch, taste, sight, smell, and sound). Nociception (the sensing of pain), and proprioception (the sensing of relative limb location and motion).

A "fetus", as we know has these senses. His palms and footpads are extremely sensitive to touch. His eyelids will squint in order to block bright light. They have a sense of gravity, as they move to get more comfortable. And it is proven that by only 12 weeks, 40% of the cerebral cortex is formed. The thalamus and sensory nerves are fully present at 8 weeks, therefore, a fetus can feel and react to pain.
Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away.
Try sticking an 8 week old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away.

My son would kick when my dog barked. We have an ultrasound picture of him sucking his thumb. He had hiccups.

So you can remove that little "/" between the equal signs, because a fetus IS a living human being.

Actually, I haven't seen evidence that a fetus feels before about 28 weeks.


http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain

Fetuses cannot feel pain until at least the 28th week of gestation because they haven't formed the necessary nerve pathways, says Mark Rosen, an obstetrical anesthesiologist at the University of California at San Francisco. He and his colleagues determined that until the third trimester, "the wiring at the point where you feel pain, such as the skin, doesn't reach the emotional part where you feel pain, in the brain." Although fetuses start forming pain receptors eight weeks into development, the thalamus, the part of the brain that routes information to other areas, doesn't form for 20 more weeks. Without the thalamus, Rosen says, no information can reach the cortex for processing.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...964142,00.html

Finally, experts in fetal development argue that at twelve weeks a fetus cannot move "purposefully," as Nathanson asserts, nor can it perceive danger; the cerebral cortex, which coordinates perception and thought, is not yet developed. As for the silent scream, says Johns Hopkins Neurobiologist David Bodian, doctors have no evidence that a twelve-week-old fetus can feel pain, though "there is a possibility of a reflex movement" in response to stimuli like surgical instruments. Hobbins suggests that the dramatic scream may have been a fetal yawn, because "the fetus spends lots of time with its mouth open." Indeed, he says, the gaping mouth in the blurry film may not have been a mouth at all, but the space between the fetal chin and chest.

Fetuses do have reflex reactions that can make them seem pained, Rosen says. "If you see a fetus in utero react to needle stimulation, then the common conclusion is that it must feel." But just as with paraplegics, "that's a reflex that's mediated by the spinal cord; that's not a conscious reaction," he says. It is possible that a temporary structure of neurons that appears in a fetus's brain during the second trimester allows it to sense pain. But Rosen and his colleagues believe a fetus's brain doesn't function coherently enough to be conscious.

[Bluerain]

This post choked me up. Thanks for posting it..

The nervous system enables the five classical senses (touch, taste, sight, smell, and sound). Nociception (the sensing of pain), and proprioception (the sensing of relative limb location and motion).

A "fetus", as we know has these senses. His palms and footpads are extremely sensitive to touch. His eyelids will squint in order to block bright light. They have a sense of gravity, as they move to get more comfortable. And it is proven that by only 12 weeks, 40% of the cerebral cortex is formed. The thalamus and sensory nerves are fully present at 8 weeks, therefore, a fetus can feel and react to pain.
Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away.
Try sticking an 8 week old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away.

My son would kick when my dog barked. We have an ultrasound picture of him sucking his thumb. He had hiccups.

So you can remove that little "/" between the equal signs, because a fetus IS a living human being.

[Beeewbs]

an engine runs a car, a tire moves a car. a heart and nervous system runs a human. therefore, that analogy is totally irrelevant. Your sperm and an egg, no, they are not human. Neither has a ticking heart or a powered brain. You have no logic.

It's a perfectly valid analogy for people that understand analogies. Something that has only parts of what a human has is not human. If a sperm and egg are not a human, then, at one point does it become a human?

[Harbinger]

i've yet to be dazzled, just disappointed in humanity. they have no justification for what they do except "it's not human"...they can't explain what makes a baby in the womb non human. It's ridiculous

If you remove a fetus from the womb before it's ready, it dies without extraordinary medical intervention. If you remove it after it's ready it will live with just the care of it's mother.

[Forge3]

I have more morals in my pinky than all of the Catholic priests combined.

..

[HersHasMuscles]

I agree with you. But I still don't think my tax dollars should be paying for the murder of their children.

this - I can't believe I'm forced to financially support an irresponsible, immoral human being, by paying for her procedure. I ALSO believe the woman should not be given any anaestethic or other medication to kill the pain. The 100% innocent daughter or son's brains are sucked out, and the lazy, dependent, irresponsible sperm recipient is lying there reading a brochure. its outrageous

Actually, I haven't seen evidence that a fetus feels before about 28 weeks.
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...964142,00.html

It is scientifically solid that a fetus feels pain at 20 weeks, although they believe this is a very late estimate. The thamalus begins to establish at less than 7 weeks, and is 100% developed by 20 weeks. Enough is built by 11-12 weeks to experience and respond to pain.

In fact, a 20-30 week old fetus actually will feel more pain than an adult would. The pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop.

[Harbinger]

..

You sea what I did thar?

[VAPlowhorse]

Superficially similar arguments with highly different reasoning on incredibility different issues. This is not a comparison, it is an emotional appeal. Both abortion and slavery are difficult to compare to other issues accurately.

[Beeewbs]

It is scientifically solid that a fetus feels pain at 20 weeks, although they believe this is a very late estimate. The thamalus begins to establish at less than 7 weeks, and is 100% developed by 20 weeks. Enough is built by 11-12 weeks to experience and respond to pain.

In fact, a 20-30 week old fetus actually will feel more pain than an adult would. The pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop.

Sources? And are you going to tell me at what point something is a human?

..

Apparently, Harbinger isn't allowed to call someone dumb, but all pro can say that all atheists and liberals have no morals or scruples and always resort to insults when they don't "dazzle" someone. Then, he continues to flame bait by saying he and her are being insulted when I point it out. How exactly is that fair?

You're wasting your time arguing with liberals and atheists. They have no morals or scruples. They will attempt to dazzle you with brilliants and when that fails they will attempt to confuse you with B.S. If that fails they will resort to personal insults. It's funny and pathetic at the same time.

[Forge3]

Apparently, Harbinger isn't allowed to call someone dumb, but all pro can say that all atheists and liberals have no morals or scruples and always resort to insults when they don't "dazzle" someone. Then, he continues to flame bait by saying he and her are being insulted when I point it out. How exactly is that fair?

The guy is obviously generalizing like someone saying all theists are delusional. but if someone starts hurling personal cuss words at someone then I step in. Generalize all you want but leave out the cuss words TY...

[Queequeg]

would be what makes killing wrong? As an emotive I see that killing is considered wrong ultimately because the emotional reaction it invokes is distasteful weather that be through the process of compassion, empathy, remorse or fear of retribution. It is no less virtuous than say saving a child from drowning as for such so called ethical actions are simply based on the reverse reasoning.

As for the example in hand that is abortion weather this is a living human is not the issue because those who are anti abortion are so because of the why the concept makes them feel no matter how they dress it up. For pro-abortion the infringement on choice is more repulsive.

So in conclusion by objecting to abortion or to any action that you think is ethical you are self serving your desire to make life more comfortable and are a slave to society and your biology.

At least please realise it.

I would also like to point out that people how object to abortion often eat meat. Yet the animals kept in inhumane conditions and then slaughtered for you convenience are far more sentient than a fetus in the womb. This for is hypocrisy on a grand scale.

For the record I am pro abortion people can do what they want providing both parents agree. I also eat meat and have conceeded to the fact that I support mass murder daily.

[Beeewbs]

The guy is obviously generalizing like someone saying all theists are delusional. but if someone starts hurling personal cuss words at someone then I step in. Generalize all you want but leave out the cuss words TY...

Harbinger didn't actually use and cuss words, and the forum rules state that flaming and flame baiting is against the rules. All pro made insults to all of us, but you're just going to let it slide. Wow, strong biased modding in here.


Ok, I'm going to generalize. All the mods in this section suck.

[Beeewbs]

would be what makes killing wrong? As an emotive I see that killing is considered wrong ultimately because the emotional reaction it invokes is distasteful weather that be through the process of compassion, empathy, remorse or fear of retribution. It is no less virtuous than say saving a child from drowning as for such so called ethical actions are simply based on the reverse reasoning.

As for the example in hand that is abortion weather this is a living human is not the issue because those who are anti abortion are so because of the why the concept makes them feel no matter how they dress it up. For pro-abortion the infringement on choice is more repulsive.

So in conclusion by objecting to abortion or to any action that you think is ethical you are self serving your desire to make life more comfortable and are a slave to society and your biology.

At least please realise it.

I would also like to point out that people how object to abortion often eat meat. Yet the animals kept in inhumane conditions and then slaughtered for you convenience are far more sentient than a fetus in the womb. This for is hypocrisy on a grand scale.

For the record I am pro abortion people can do what they want providing both parents agree. I also eat meat and have conceeded to the fact that I support mass murder daily.

Thank you for bringing this up. It disgusts me how some people are so hypocritical.

[Harbinger]

Harbinger didn't actually use and cuss words, and the forum rules state that flaming and flame baiting is against the rules. All pro made insults to all of us, but you're just going to let it slide. Wow, strong biased modding in here.


Ok, I'm going to generalize. All the mods in this section suck.

end well this will not.

[Beeewbs]

end well this will not.

Meh. He said we can generalize, so he should put his money where his mouth is.

[Queequeg]

Thank you for bringing this up. It disgusts me how some people are so hypocritical.

Well that dead corspe of a sentient life form is conviently packaged in celophane wrapping with the cute face cut off and disposed out of sight. I suppose when your putting this in your mouth your think hmm that tastes nice I feel good. Hence is is justified.

Oh but wait when I talk about abortion that makes me feel sick oooohh So lets not do that.

Sometimes times I think being a human being is pathetic!

[HersHasMuscles]

It's a perfectly valid analogy for people that understand analogies. Something that has only parts of what a human has is not human. If a sperm and egg are not a human, then, at one point does it become a human?

lol, i clearly have an understanding of analogies.
There is a definitive difference in an unfertilized egg and a human. DNA is created at the moment of conception. The baby's DNA is unique and separate from the parents DNA determining voice, eye color, skin color, brain structure, height, etc. And they'll have this exact DNA until death.

The female body autonomously does the rest. It will over time become a fully developed human being on its own (at conception it's still human, just an under developed human). The fetus has its own intention of becoming human by itself. The only difference in a fetus and a born baby, is the born baby can live independently of the mother's system.

At earlier than 3 weeks, a brain wave is detectable. Who knows what is going on in that little brain of his?

If you remove a fetus from the womb before it's ready, it dies without extraordinary medical intervention. If you remove it after it's ready it will live with just the care of it's mother.

So...if a person is in need of medical intervention (even in extreme measures), you're not human and deserve to die? Okay - If you contract an illness that leaves you bed ridden and in need of medical attention, we'll just go ahead and kill you too. Why don't we stick a pair of surgical scissors in your skull.. after all, you're not human.
ridiculous.
A stab to the liver, the only chance of survival will be a liver transplant. Would you consider this an extraordinary medical intervention? I would.
Are you aware that if a prisoner, even a prisoner convicted of murder or multiple murders, will be helicoptered to a hospital and receive the medical treatment necessary for life?
I suppose a serial killer or child molester has a life more valuable than an innocent little baby with an infinite chance of success, right? That's basically what you're saying

Superficially similar arguments with highly different reasoning on incredibility different issues. This is not a comparison, it is an emotional appeal. Both abortion and slavery are difficult to compare to other issues accurately.

Why are they difficult to compare? Because slaves were confined to the homes of their owners, and were only sometimes put to death? In several cases, slaves were treated as part of the family and led joyful lives. In several cases, when slavery was abolished, they begged the home owner to keep them there. So slaves were restricted to an area of travel, and a 100's of 1000's of babies are bruttaly killed every year.
You're right - they're not comparable