m drol h drol stack ?

[Grambo25]

The reason I mentioned delayed gyno was because it's usually an indicator of a crappy PCT or cycle.

Did I recover the same? I get bloodwork done roughly 3 times a year and hormonies are all within the healthy normal ranges. I use a SERM for Superdrol and I use TRS or could use some other OTC for anything else; again, this is my experience.

Sounds good.

[Grambo25]

so when i go to get blood work done do i just layout what im gonna use to my doctor or do i just ask to have my blood work done could there be any repercussions to having that i took this stuff in my file like insurance and so forth?

This is a sensitive question and really depends on your relationship with your doctor.

[Adjusting]

Delayed gyno is due to crappy cycle planning , not PCT....
If you had done more to keep testosterone elevated during the cycle , estrogen would not have rebound (and thus caused delayed gyno)

Me?

[gjohnson5]

Me?

Anyone

[Grambo25]

This point has been disputed since the drug was created by phat daddy. Using a drug 3x and 4x the dosage doesn't mean the drug is massively toxic. IMHO it's you who need to do more reading.
Secondly the point in bold is exactly why I don't use research chemicals. There is no guarantee that what's in the bottle is clomid and novaldex (or whatever you bought)
There is no QA / QC and there is no customer service.

Secondly clomid and nolvadex restore HPTA.... If one is primary hypogonad, then clomid and nolvadex may not increase testosterone at all. Please use correct terms

Whats disputable? That Mdrol shuts down people very hard (all blood work shows this along with massive hits to cholesterol) and yes using a toxic drug for a higher dose dose mean it makes it more toxic lol ?? I am confused where I said he was using too much? Not one person would recommend that stack. Exactly what do I need to read more about?

Agreed Research Chems can be messy.

Sorry I simplified it....how horrible of me. Primary Hypogonadism (use correct terms remember) would be a problem with the Hypothalamus agree? Why would this be the problem with suppression caused by exogenous hormonal intake? (The androgenic pathway negative feedback would be a problem "downstream")

Yes I said it restores the HPTA (if it does that doesn't it restore the Hypothalamus since that is what the H stands for?) and therefore increases testosterone production...

Delayed gyno is due to crappy cycle planning , not PCT....
If you had done more to keep testosterone elevated during the cycle , estrogen would not have rebound (and thus caused delayed gyno)

Keep testosterone elevated on cycle? How would you do that when your natural HPTA is supressed? Keeping natural test up and taking exogenous hormones don't go hand in hand. Youre delayed gyno theory seems odd since keeping test raised would actually increase estrogen....

[Adjusting]

Delayed gyno is due to crappy cycle planning , not PCT....
If you had done more to keep testosterone elevated during the cycle , estrogen would not have rebound (and thus caused delayed gyno)

I don't know you're going to keep T high on cycle. You can E low obviously.

[Grambo25]

I don't know you're going to keep T high on cycle. You can E low obviously.

HCG is about the only way to do that and even then its minimal actual testosterone production and more of a decrease of suppression. (plus no one uses or would use that on a PH cycle)

[gjohnson5]

Whats disputable? That Mdrol shuts down people very hard (all blood work shows this along with massive hits to cholesterol)

No it does not....

and yes using a toxic drug for a higher dose dose mean it makes it more toxic lol ?? I am confused where I said he was using too much? Not one person would recommend that stack. Exactly what do I need to read more about?

I'm referring to the post about m-drol toxicity. Most of the so called "toxicity" is people overdosing on the drug.

Agreed Research Chems can be messy.

Sorry I simplified it....how horrible of me. Primary Hypogonadism (use correct terms remember) would be a problem with the Hypothalamus agree?

Primary hypogonad refers to a problem with the testicles locally reducing testicular function
Secondary hypogonad refers to a problem somewhere OTHER THEN the testicles reducing testiculsr function

Quick wiki reference will clear this up

Primary or Secondary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypogonadism

* Primary - defect is inherent within the gonad: eg. Noonan syndrome, Turner syndrome (45X,0), Klinefelter syndrome (47XXY), XX males with SRY gene
* Secondary - defect lies outside of the gonad: eg. Kallmann syndrome and Polycystic ovary syndrome, also called hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.[2]

Why would this be the problem with suppression caused by exogenous hormonal intake? (The androgenic pathway negative feedback would be a problem "downstream")

The answer is N?A since you had the above term wrong

Yes I said it restores the HPTA (if it does that doesn't it restore the Hypothalamus since that is what the H stands for?) and therefore increases testosterone production...

The part in bold assumes the person
1. is not hypersensitive to androgens
2. is not primary hypogonad

I am NOT disputing clomid or nolvadex in thier ability to restore HPTA. That goes without saying. I am disputing the use of uknown chemical(s) in a bottle labeled (not for human consumption) to restore HPTA

Keep testosterone elevated on cycle? How would you do that when your natural HPTA is supressed? Keeping natural test up and taking exogenous hormones don't go hand in hand. Youre delayed gyno theory seems odd since keeping test raised would actually increase estrogen....

HPTA does not equal testosterone production. The testicles can produce testosterone if LH is supplied exogenously even if the HPTA is broken.... (Assuming the person is not primary hypogonad)
That a ultimately mistaken point in these threads. Aromatase doesn't lead to estrogen rebound. If that were the case all men would be feminine exogenous hormones or not, LOLOL
The use of on cycle products Fadogia Agrestis, tribulus and even PP's own dermacrine have shown abilities to increase libido and testicular function even on cycle.

[Grambo25]

No it does not....





I'm referring to the post about m-drol toxicity. Most of the so called "toxicity" is people overdosing on the drug.





Primary hypogonad refers to a problem with the testicles locally reducing testicular function
Secondary hypogonad refers to a problem somewhere OTHER THEN the testicles reducing testiculsr function

Quick wiki reference will clear this up

Primary or Secondary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypogonadism

* Primary - defect is inherent within the gonad: eg. Noonan syndrome, Turner syndrome (45X,0), Klinefelter syndrome (47XXY), XX males with SRY gene
* Secondary - defect lies outside of the gonad: eg. Kallmann syndrome and Polycystic ovary syndrome, also called hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.[2]




The answer is N?A since you had the above term wrong



The part in bold assumes the person
1. is not hypersensitive to androgens
2. is not primary hypogonad

I am NOT disputing clomid or nolvadex in thier ability to restore HPTA. That goes without saying. I am disputing the use of uknown chemical(s) in a bottle labeled (not for human consumption) to restore HPTA




HPTA does not equal testosterone production. The testicles can produce testosterone if LH is supplied exogenously even if the HPTA is broken....
That a ultimately mistaken point in these threads. Aromatase doesn't lead to estrogen rebound. If that were the case all men would be feminine exogenous hormones or not, LOLOL
The use of on cycle products ***io and even PP's own dermacrine have shown abilities to increase libido and testicular function even on cycle.

1. What is overdosing the drug? I took 10mg and 20mg and my cholesterol was shattered and test levels below normal. How can you say it doesn't cause suppression? (Maybe we are getting caught up in the term toxic as I don't think it is poison or anything just powerful compared to all other PH/DS and even most AAS orals)

2. Youre right I got my terms wrong for primar/secondary etc..... realized it as soon as I submitted lol (low carbs hurt the brain) ..... I think we are arguing the same on HPTA being brought back my pharm grade. I didn't think that was an argument.....I thouht you were saying they wouldn't bring it back.

3. Who said aromtase leads to estrogen rebound? Aromatase leads to estrogen........... Also I am saying that studies show that Nolva/Clomid/Torem do raise testosterone.... an upregulation of HPTA actually would mean testosterone was being made. Libido does not equal testosterone either why we are at it

[jblaze4lif]

If i was going to stack the 2 I would do a bridge

Option 1

Hdrol - 75/75/75/50/0
Mdrol - 0/ 0/ 0/10 /20

or more advanced

Hdrol - 75/75/75/50/50/0
Mdrol - 0/ 0/ 0/10/10/20

But pct I would def use Clomid + Bioforge .. or Nolva/Torem + Bioforge

[Grambo25]

If i was going to stack the 2 I would do a bridge

Option 1

Hdrol - 75/75/75/50/0
Mdrol - 0/0/0/10/20

or

Hdrol - 75/75/75/50/50/0
Mdrol 0/0/0/10/10/20

But pct I would def use Clomid + Bioforge .. or Nolva/Torem + Bioforge

I wouldn't stack them at all. Would you?

This is more due to liver stress and cardiovascular stress than HPTA suppression (this is going to happen either way)

Bio Forge in PCT FTW though reps

[jblaze4lif]

I wouldn't stack them at all. Would you?

This is more due to liver stress and cardiovascular stress than HPTA suppression (this is going to happen either way)

Bio Forge in PCT FTW though reps

Thank you Thank you .. Nah I wouldnt stack them .. I would just run 6 weeks @ 75 mg Hdrol

If I wanted to run a stronger compound It would be Dymethazine for 4 to 5 weeks

[gjohnson5]

1. What is overdosing the drug? I took 10mg and 20mg and my cholesterol was shattered and test levels below normal.

That is called anectdotal evidence....
This won't necessarily be so in the next man

How can you say it doesn't cause suppression? (Maybe we are getting caught up in the term toxic as I don't think it is poison or anything just powerful compared to all other PH/DS and even most AAS orals)

Not I didn't say m-drol DIDN'T cause suppression. I said I blieve most of the talk of toxicity was from users overdosing the drug. Can the standard dose supress HPTA ... yes. Can the supression on the standard dose cause shutdown, not just supression... Yes. However this is also person to person....

2. Youre right I got my terms wrong for primar/secondary etc..... realized it as soon as I submitted lol (low carbs hurt the brain) ..... I think we are arguing the same on HPTA being brought back my pharm grade. I didn't think that was an argument.....I thouht you were saying they wouldn't bring it back.

I'm just trying to use those terms such that I can get my point across. HPTA supression leads to reductions of GnRH from the hypothalamus. A lack of GnRH at the pituitary leads to reductions in LH and FSH secretion in the pituitary. If this LH can be supplied either with herbs or OTC chemicals (or prescription drugs) , it could be that testosterone is raised while taking said androgens.

3. Who said aromtase leads to estrogen rebound? Aromatase leads to estrogen........... Also I am saying that studies show that Nolva/Clomid/Torem do raise testosterone.... an upregulation of HPTA actually would mean testosterone was being made. Libido does not equal testosterone either why we are at it

Aromatase + testosterone leads to estrogen. The part in bold assumes the person doesn't have a testicular problem locally. I'm just trying to sue the correct terms. HPTA upregulation means HPTA upregulation.... And I agree libido does not mean testosterone either. However I think it's a better sign then lack of libido from doing nothing on cycle :-)

[Grambo25]

Alright I am satisfied

Good discussion..... I think basically we are on the same page though. So good to know, loved the HPTA detailed out. You know it for sure, love the science talk!


Only thing would be what herbs could mimic or increase LH?

[jetsetjake87]

bump

[disbeast57]

I would run the M-drol for 4-5 wks then bridge for 4 weeks with dermacrine then run the h-drol for another 4-5 weeks.

[Grambo25]

I would run the M-drol for 4-5 wks then bridge for 4 weeks with dermacrine then run the h-drol for another 4-5 weeks.

Horrible idea.....what's the point of the bridge with Dermacrine? It won't bring the HPTA back to any extent. I don't understand people not just saying do two separate cycles.....he has one cycle under his belt guys.

[trize1217]

I have an idea. I just wouldn't stack two Methyl compounds. do you enjoy not pissing your liver out? If you do then do, then don't stack these two. It's just plainly not safe. Yes, you could do it and be fine, but are a few extra pounds really worth your health? If you do use m-drol, get a SERM for your pct