If there was only one..

[ripped427]

If there was one steroid you could use all year with the least amount of sides, what would you use. i dont mean on all year, i mean cycling. like if you did 8 weeks on 8-10 weeks off for like 5 years straight. so thats like 3-4 cycles a year. what would you use. winny alone(lets make the standard 6 weeks for this)
or test? i think test would be the winner but lets put it in perspective of sides..like shut down and hairloss. thats some prob long time know sides which suck lol.

so if you ran winny vs test alone, which one would **** you up more pretty much.

masterone straight alone cycle? or tren? i know its harsh.

would test still come out on top? also isssss test one of the worth for hair loss?? i saw some thinning on my right temple side last cycle 600mg test 600 eq and i stopped it early cause of it and other reasons.. but ya i rather do cycles of only test more often then long huge amounts of other compounds.

but if your going to do it short and more often, then what steroid has the lightest shutdown??var ? or primo? i rather inj

any opinions?

[need4weed]

Originally Posted by ripped427

If there was one steroid you could use all year with the least amount of sides, what would you use. i dont mean on all year, i mean cycling. like if you did 8 weeks on 8-10 weeks off for like 5 years straight. so thats like 3-4 cycles a year. what would you use. winny alone(lets make the standard 6 weeks for this)
or test? i think test would be the winner but lets put it in perspective of sides..like shut down and hairloss. thats some prob long time know sides which suck lol.

so if you ran winny vs test alone, which one would **** you up more pretty much.

masterone straight alone cycle? or tren? i know its harsh.

would test still come out on top? also isssss test one of the worth for hair loss?? i saw some thinning on my right temple side last cycle 600mg test 600 eq and i stopped it early cause of it and other reasons.. but ya i rather do cycles of only test more often then long huge amounts of other compounds.

but if your going to do it short and more often, then what steroid has the lightest shutdown??var ? or primo? i rather inj

any opinions?

test.

orals are by default out. anything non-aromatizing run solo will destroy hdl/ldl and probably joints. anything with low-androgen solo will have you feeling like ****. plus test is a major hormone in men, it probably regulates lots of functions. probably not a good idea to go without it for a long time.

so, test.

edit: if you are losing your hair, its genetic. its happening anyway. the test is just speeding it up. 5-10 years earlier isnt that important, imo.

[Molon.Labe]

Originally Posted by ripped427

If there was one steroid you could use all year with the least amount of sides, what would you use. i dont mean on all year, i mean cycling. like if you did 8 weeks on 8-10 weeks off for like 5 years straight. so thats like 3-4 cycles a year. what would you use. winny alone(lets make the standard 6 weeks for this)
or test? i think test would be the winner but lets put it in perspective of sides..like shut down and hairloss. thats some prob long time know sides which suck lol.

so if you ran winny vs test alone, which one would **** you up more pretty much.

masterone straight alone cycle? or tren? i know its harsh.

would test still come out on top? also isssss test one of the worth for hair loss?? i saw some thinning on my right temple side last cycle 600mg test 600 eq and i stopped it early cause of it and other reasons.. but ya i rather do cycles of only test more often then long huge amounts of other compounds.

but if your going to do it short and more often, then what steroid has the lightest shutdown??var ? or primo? i rather inj

any opinions?

All steroids cause shutdown, not just Test.

There are only a few steroids that are considered "mild" to hair loss: anavar, primo, EQ, and Deca. The first two are cost prohibitive for most, and Deca should most definitely be ran with Test. You could always run EQ again with a lower Test dosage. Combine that with topicals like Ketoconazole shampoo and spiro cream, and you just might be able to get by with very little hairloss if any.

I've heard mixed reviews about Winny as far as hair loss is concerned, but I wouldn't want to run a substantial dose of it for the purpose of packing on mass because of the joint problems. I haven't tried Winny, but I have tried other stuff that causes dry joints and let me tell you it's no fun.

Along with the Test + EQ stack I mentioned, the best stacks for maintaining your hair if cost were not an issue would probably be a low dose Test base stacked with a high dose of Anavar or Primo.

[ripped427]

thanks guys for the info!
i was doing the test and eq and found that i was losing hair, but maybe cause it was the test? what if i took an ai to lower estergen a bit, is it going to have any pro for hairloss or ldl/hdl? i am also using nizoral now, which contains ketosnviuinv lol whatever it is, im not gunna try and spell it lol.

im thinking of only doing short cycles, 6 weeks max from now on so eq is kinda out of the question...unless i could front load like 600mg on eq a week for the first 2 weeks, like 300 mon thurs mon thurs, then continue with just the prop, would i see gains near the end, or not long enough on it to have an effect eh>?

with the shorter cycles, would there be less build up of dht(hair loss mo-fak) or propcresia the est dht blocker?

i didn't know eq and deca were light on hair loss, sweet. Don't doseages have to be met or the test higher then whatever other compound? like 500mg deca 600mg test..or would you not suffer from deca dick at only 300mg test/wk and 500mg deca?

im planning on running maybe tren, which i now is hard on hairloss...i might trade it for primo lol and do a wak load of that. but what if i only do like 100mg eod tren, that to much? mmmm i was even thinking of doing 50mg eod tren and 50mg eod prop? nice light cycle but would be like 300mg test with the potentcy of tren right??

[Molon.Labe]

Originally Posted by ripped427

thanks guys for the info!
i was doing the test and eq and found that i was losing hair, but maybe cause it was the test? what if i took an ai to lower estergen a bit, is it going to have any pro for hairloss or ldl/hdl? i am also using nizoral now, which contains ketosnviuinv lol whatever it is, im not gunna try and spell it lol.

Only take an AI if you are concerned with bloat, it won't do anything to help you maintain your hair. The shampoo you want is Nizoral. You can buy it in 1% formula at places like Wal-Mart, and you can get 2% by prescription. It's marketed as an anti-dandruff shampoo. Some people have also said that Nioxin shampoo has helped them keep their hair but I haven't done any research on it so I won't comment one way or another.

EDIT: I misread your post, I see you already are using Nizoral. That's good. You should also look into spiro cream. A lot of people think it's good to switch them up with each other back and forth.

Originally Posted by ripped427

im thinking of only doing short cycles, 6 weeks max from now on so eq is kinda out of the question...unless i could front load like 600mg on eq a week for the first 2 weeks, like 300 mon thurs mon thurs, then continue with just the prop, would i see gains near the end, or not long enough on it to have an effect eh>?

with the shorter cycles, would there be less build up of dht(hair loss mo-fak) or propcresia the est dht blocker?

I personally think long cycles are seriously overrated and will most likely be running short cycles of 2-6 weeks from now on. If you hop on google, you will find a program developed by Bill Roberts that is 2 weeks on 4 weeks off. Of course, the gains aren't huge, but you can easily run 8 of these cycles a year opposed to 1-3 regular cycles. It sucks when you come off a long cycle and have to wait months and months before you can run another. I have yet to see any evidence at all that supports the "solidify gains with long cycles" idea.

I've also read about people not experiencing hair loss until mid-to-late in their cycles and if that's the case with you, short cycles might help you get in and get out before hair loss even becomes an issue. While I've never used it, EQ looks like a great compound, but I personally wouldn't use it in a short cycle. For short cycles you want faster acting compounds. You'd want to look into things like Test Prop/Susp, Tren Ace, D-Bol, etc.

Originally Posted by ripped427

i didn't know eq and deca were light on hair loss, sweet. Don't doseages have to be met or the test higher then whatever other compound? like 500mg deca 600mg test..or would you not suffer from deca dick at only 300mg test/wk and 500mg deca?

Good question, unfortunately I can't answer it. Maybe someone else will chime in. I have no plans of running Deca myself as you would only use Deca in longer cycles and I don't like the idea of running such a suppressive compound for so long. Tren is also very suppressive but at least with Tren you can run it in short cycles. If I were going to run a long cycle and were worried about hairloss I'd just use EQ instead. Not that I've researched it a whole lot, but I've heard enough anecdotal horror stories of people taking forever to recover from Deca cycles or never fully recovering at all for me to just avoid it entirely. That's just my $.02, though, and on the flip side lots of people who have ran it love it. Ultimately doesn't really seem to offer anything that makes it worth the risk for me.

Originally Posted by ripped427

im planning on running maybe tren, which i now is hard on hairloss...i might trade it for primo lol and do a wak load of that. but what if i only do like 100mg eod tren, that to much? mmmm i was even thinking of doing 50mg eod tren and 50mg eod prop? nice light cycle but would be like 300mg test with the potentcy of tren right??

I haven't run Tren yet but the recommended dosages for a first Tren cycle is usually around 50-75mg ED-EOD. You probably want to go easy with Tren your first time because of sides, you want to see how you react. Some people have lots of sides, some people report almost none.

[ripped427]

wow i am so glad to hear that positive response. short cycles for sure. but what kind of cycle would you do for 2 weeks? not a ph right?

[siersy]

Originally Posted by ripped427

wow i am so glad to hear that positive response. short cycles for sure. but what kind of cycle would you do for 2 weeks? not a ph right?

lulz at 2 week cycle...

short cycle is supposed to be 6-8 weeks man...

shorter ester definatly prefered

[Molon.Labe]

Originally Posted by ripped427

wow i am so glad to hear that positive response. short cycles for sure. but what kind of cycle would you do for 2 weeks? not a ph right?

Just like I mentioned...

Originally Posted by Molon.Labe

You'd want to look into things like Test Prop/Susp, Tren Ace, D-Bol, etc.

Also, you'll have to go elsewhere to get much advice on a short cycle. People here tend to heavily favor long cycles. It's been discussed before and I have yet to read anything compelling as to why long cycles are so great, yet some people here tend to advocate ridiculously long cycles. There is no such thing as "solidifying" your gains. If you follow proper PCT procedure while training and eating right you will maintain your lean mass gains regardless of how short the cycle is, period. One of the advantages of the 2 week on 4 week off cycle is how quick and easy you can recover from it which means you can expect the "PCT crash" to be FAR less severe. Besides, in a period of 1-2 years, I would bet that 90-99% of people would gain more overall from a series of many short cycles compared to a few long ones. To each is own I suppose.

The 2 week on 4 week off cycle isn't the only way to go. You can also do cycles of 4-6 weeks. Using faster acting compounds, I see very little reason to ever do a cycle longer than that. Get in and get out as fast as you can so you can start your next one sooner, that's my way of thinking about it.

[need4weed]

imo short cycles are probably better suited for advanced trainees.

a new AAS user can definately use a few longer cycles, hes not going to have problems gaining consistently for 8-12weeks in his first cycles.

afterwards, when some1 notices that gains start to diminish in the later weeks of the cycle, he can start using shorter cycles.

keep in mind though, if a cycle is only 4 weeks, those 4 weeks have to be done PERFECT. on a longer cycle you have a margin for error.

[Molon.Labe]

Originally Posted by need4weed

imo short cycles are probably better suited for advanced trainees.

a new AAS user can definately use a few longer cycles, hes not going to have problems gaining consistently for 8-12weeks in his first cycles.

I disagree. On my first Test E cycle, my gains went like crazy from around week 4 until week 7-8 and then pretty much stopped. Talking to others, it seems that this is pretty normal. I've only seen a few people report gains all the way through their long cycles. So few that I tend to think that maybe they are just saying that to justify their long cycles. In reality I think people just enjoy long cycles because of how good you feel while on and they want to delay PCT, which is the part that everyone seems to hate. Many people speculate that the longer your cycle goes, the more your body attempts to reach homeostasis, which means things like elevated cortisol levels. This is part of the reason why many people lose their gains during/after PCT. They have all this cortisol in their system while the androgens are fading away. Not a good position to be in.

Originally Posted by need4weed

afterwards, when some1 notices that gains start to diminish in the later weeks of the cycle, he can start using shorter cycles.

keep in mind though, if a cycle is only 4 weeks, those 4 weeks have to be done PERFECT. on a longer cycle you have a margin for error.

Nothing needs to be "perfect", but if you can't gain on short cycles, so long as they are executed properly (using the right compounds and such), then the problem is you don't know what you're doing and shouldn't be using AAS anyway. The "margin of error" idea only works if you look at a single 2-week cycle versus a single 12-week cycle. This is not a logical comparison as and I'll explain why.

Just think, if you run a 12-week cycle and a 4-week PCT, then that means you have to wait another 16 weeks before you can run another cycle. This means the total time required for each cycle is 32 weeks (12+4+16). At this rate, you can only safely run about 1.6 cycles per year! Whereas, if you were to run 2-weeks on and 4-weeks off, this means the total length required for each cycle is only 6 weeks meaning you can safely run about 8.6 cycles per year. This is a huge difference. This means week for week, every one 12-week cycle is equal to over 5 of the short cycles.

Then let's take into account what a huge investment the longer cycles are. If you know you can only run 1 or 2 cycles this year, you really are not going to want to let anything screw it up. But the problem is life happens sometimes. It's not uncommon to see people injure themselves mid-cycle and then keep going because they can't convince themselves to pull out. Compare that to a 2-week cycle, which is a much smaller time investment, a person wouldn't be sacrificing nearly as much if they needed to stop the cycle early to recover from an injury.

Like I said, the 2-week on 4-week off cycle isn't the only short cycle. You could always run 3-6 week cycles as well. Even on a 6 week cycle you'll spend more time in the "rapid gain" phase during your cycle instead of spending the last month of your cycle with gains that crawl. That time to me is a waste, as it could be used towards making your next cycle come faster.

Furthermore, let's take into account how much it absolutely sucks to wait over 4 months before you can start another cycle. We can all agree that this sucks big time. In fact, it sucks so much that a lot of people don't even wait that long, which decreases the chance of a full (or at least somewhat prompt) recovery.

All that said, I actually do think that 10-12 weeks cycles using long esters are good for a beginner, but for different reasons. Mostly because of the injection frequency and pain. Test Prop/Suspension injections not only need to be frequent, but they also are known for being painful for most. This can be a lot to handle for a beginner. Even my first few Test-E injections left me in pain and limping around for days after because I wasn't used to it. Fortunately I only needed to pin 2 times a week. If I had to pin 3-7 times a week +, that could have been very discouraging.

Ultimately I'm not saying that short cycles are the only way to go. I just want to make the point that there is a heavy and irrational bias against using them (especially on this site). I'm not even saying that short cycles are the best for anyone. But let's face the fact that for many people, short cycles can have some major advantages over longer cycles.

[johnnyironboard]

Originally Posted by ripped427

If there was one steroid you could use all year with the least amount of sides, what would you use.

test and aromasin.

[ripped427]

short cycles for the win for sure, there awesome and rule out longer ones imo, unless you constintly changing compounds.

i just like the feeling of being on, so that alone has got me doing short cycles.
im going to do the following 3 cycles and see where i am at, at the end.

1-2 m1t 10mg ed(maybe to week 3)
1-4 100-125mg eod
adex 1 mg e3d(only come in 1mg capsule, dont really wanna open it up and mess around)
week 3 hcg 1500ui, 4 days later(thursday) another 1500ui, thats all
nolva 40/20/20/20 might do 40 40 20 20 but my last one i just did 40 40 40 40 20 and was sweet, great libido the whole time.

then maybe something like
dbol 30mg 1-3
1-4 tren 100mg eod
1-4 or 5 prop 100-125 eod
adex same but might not need cause no aromitization from tren
pct same


winny 1-4 50mg ed
prop 100mg eod
pct same
maybe add some clen in with this cycle cause it will may or even june if i take like 5-6 weeks off.

i think this is a really good plan of attack for 6 months. 24 weeks total 3 cycles and 3 pcts lol
seems good, so i think im going to try this plan.
with of course somethings changing, dosages, compounds changing cause of availability or w.e

i also take animal pak, saw pawmetto and liv 52 all year as well as coq10 and cla efa's over 200-220+ everyday protein, 100-500 carbs depending what i am doing and dunno about fats lol, dont count them really cause i dont eat alot of junk. veggie greens and phytoberry

sweeeet i can't wait till october 1st! thats when im gunna start, should be sweeeeeeeet lol

[Solo_]

Molon.Labe, very informative posts and I like your arguments behind short cycles. I can't repp for some reason.

Originally Posted by Molon.Labe

Only take an AI if you are concerned with bloat, it won't do anything to help you maintain your hair. The shampoo you want is Nizoral. You can buy it in 1% formula at places like Wal-Mart, and you can get 2% by prescription. It's marketed as an anti-dandruff shampoo. Some people have also said that Nioxin shampoo has helped them keep their hair but I haven't done any research on it so I won't comment one way or another.

EDIT: I misread your post, I see you already are using Nizoral. That's good. You should also look into spiro cream. A lot of people think it's good to switch them up with each other back and forth.I personally think long cycles are seriously overrated and will most likely be running short cycles of 2-6 weeks from now on. If you hop on google, you will find a program developed by Bill Roberts that is 2 weeks on 4 weeks off. Of course, the gains aren't huge, but you can easily run 8 of these cycles a year opposed to 1-3 regular cycles. It sucks when you come off a long cycle and have to wait months and months before you can run another. I have yet to see any evidence at all that supports the "solidify gains with long cycles" idea.

I've also read about people not experiencing hair loss until mid-to-late in their cycles and if that's the case with you, short cycles might help you get in and get out before hair loss even becomes an issue. While I've never used it, EQ looks like a great compound, but I personally wouldn't use it in a short cycle. For short cycles you want faster acting compounds. You'd want to look into things like Test Prop/Susp, Tren Ace, D-Bol, etc.
Good question, unfortunately I can't answer it. Maybe someone else will chime in. I have no plans of running Deca myself as you would only use Deca in longer cycles and I don't like the idea of running such a suppressive compound for so long. Tren is also very suppressive but at least with Tren you can run it in short cycles. If I were going to run a long cycle and were worried about hairloss I'd just use EQ instead. Not that I've researched it a whole lot, but I've heard enough anecdotal horror stories of people taking forever to recover from Deca cycles or never fully recovering at all for me to just avoid it entirely. That's just my $.02, though, and on the flip side lots of people who have ran it love it. Ultimately doesn't really seem to offer anything that makes it worth the risk for me.
I haven't run Tren yet but the recommended dosages for a first Tren cycle is usually around 50-75mg ED-EOD. You probably want to go easy with Tren your first time because of sides, you want to see how you react. Some people have lots of sides, some people report almost none.

How effective is nizoral in comparison to propecia and durastide?

Originally Posted by need4weed

imo short cycles are probably better suited for advanced trainees.

a new AAS user can definately use a few longer cycles, hes not going to have problems gaining consistently for 8-12weeks in his first cycles.

afterwards, when some1 notices that gains start to diminish in the later weeks of the cycle, he can start using shorter cycles.

keep in mind though, if a cycle is only 4 weeks, those 4 weeks have to be done PERFECT. on a longer cycle you have a margin for error.

Just a quick question, doe gains for most people slow down after the 12th week because they are not consuming enough calories for their newfound weight class?

[Molon.Labe]

Originally Posted by Solo_

How effective is nizoral in comparison to propecia and durastide?

I would guess orals would work better if all you were concerned about was preventing hairloss. Finasteride and dutasteride are 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors. This means they block the conversion of testosterone to DHT. The problem is that blocking DHT means inhibiting your gains to some degree. How much they inhibit your gains is debatable and some people think not much. Just remember that there are some steroids that you do not want to take while using Finasteride/Dutasteride such as Deca and Trenbolone. Also remember that takine either drug is thought of as a lifetime commitment. But really, the whole Finasteride/Dutasteride discussion is a whole different topic, but in the end I decided to take the advice of Dr. John Crisler (one of the most highly respected doctors in the anabolic steroid world) and use nizoral/spiro instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8e7HERXA3s

Originally Posted by Solo_

Just a quick question, doe gains for most people slow down after the 12th week because they are not consuming enough calories for their newfound weight class?

That could be part of it. But like I said before, while on a cycle your body is trying to reach homeostasis, which is basically an attempt to "balance" things out. This is where the whole myth of androgen receptor downregulation began. People think their gains stop because their receptors are "burned out", but really their body is adapting in other ways, like increasing cortisol levels. Over time guys also find that gains are harder to make and again they chock it up to "receptor burnout". But in that case the problem just simply is that the bigger you get the harder it becomes to make gains.

[strength777]

as long as we understand there is no such cycle as a cycle without test.

than i say eq

i can run low dose test and 900 mgs eq and need zero ancillaries..

[need4weed]

Originally Posted by strength777

as long as we understand there is no such cycle as a cycle without test.

than i say eq

i can run low dose test and 900 mgs eq and need zero ancillaries..

BP probs?

[Solo_]

Originally Posted by Molon.Labe

I would guess orals would work better if all you were concerned about was preventing hairloss. Finasteride and dutasteride are 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors. This means they block the conversion of testosterone to DHT. The problem is that blocking DHT means inhibiting your gains to some degree. How much they inhibit your gains is debatable and some people think not much. Just remember that there are some steroids that you do not want to take while using Finasteride/Dutasteride such as Deca and Trenbolone. Also remember that takine either drug is thought of as a lifetime commitment. But really, the whole Finasteride/Dutasteride discussion is a whole different topic, but in the end I decided to take the advice of Dr. John Crisler (one of the most highly respected doctors in the anabolic steroid world) and use nizoral/spiro instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8e7HERXA3s

That could be part of it. But like I said before, while on a cycle your body is trying to reach homeostasis, which is basically an attempt to "balance" things out. This is where the whole myth of androgen receptor downregulation began. People think their gains stop because their receptors are "burned out", but really their body is adapting in other ways, like increasing cortisol levels. Over time guys also find that gains are harder to make and again they chock it up to "receptor burnout". But in that case the problem just simply is that the bigger you get the harder it becomes to make gains.

Very informative post Molon. My dad, and my grandpa's on both sides of the family have MPB. My dad said he didn't start losing hair until his late 30s to early 40s. How worried should I be about hairloss on cycle? I'm just curious about how using an oral while on test can accelerate hairloss compared to using test alone.


Also, great post on the body adapting to newfound size and diminishing gains. I've always known that the body eventually moves towards an equilibirum. Perhaps that's why the pros eventually move on to using HGH and slin?

[need4weed]

Originally Posted by Solo_

Very informative post Molon. My dad, and my grandpa's on both sides of the family have MPB. My dad said he didn't start losing hair until his late 30s to early 40s. How worried should I be about hairloss on cycle? I'm just curious about how using an oral while on test can accelerate hairloss compared to using test alone.


Also, great post on the body adapting to newfound size and diminishing gains. I've always known that the body eventually moves towards an equilibirum. Perhaps that's why the pros eventually move on to using HGH and slin?

you werent asking me, but i thought i'd chime in anyways

for MPB, you shoulda ask abt your mothers dad. most of the relevant genes come from the X gene in the 23rd pair, ie the one you get from your mom.

also, ditto on the nizoral/spiro suggestion, much better than using 5ar inhibitors. dht is VERY important, for gains, avoiding gyno, fat burning etc etc.

pros use slin + GH because the are anabolic as f*ck when used together, and also because GH + slin = IGF production in the liver. and IGF = new muscle cells to make bigger