confused as all heck

[vito1281]

Ok, I'm still confused about how to train: go to failure on every set, just the last one, or not at all.

Here's my current weekly split:

MON: Chest/Tris
Flat DB Press -- 3-4 sets x 4-8 reps
Incline DB Press -- 3-4 x 4-8
Flat DB Flyes -- 3 x 6-8

EZ curl Skullcrushers -- 3 x 6-8
Rope Pressdowns -- 3 x 6-8

TUES: Legs
Squats -- 3-4 x 6-10
Leg Press -- 3-4 6-12
Seated Calf Raises -- 4-5 x 10-15

WED: Off

THU: Back/Bis
Deadlifts -- 3-4 x 4-10
T-bar Row -- 3-4 x 5-8
Lat Pulldown -- 3 x 4-8

FRI: Shoulders/Traps
Military Press (Seated) -- 3-4 x 4-8
Seated DB Press -- 3-4 x 4-8
DB Laterals -- 3 x 6-10
DB Shrugs -- 4-5 x 6-12

Now, with the excetion of the first warm up set, I take every set to positive failure. My primary goal is hypertrophy, with strength gains second. I've been training like this for just a little over a month now (didn't train before that for a while), and have recently been getting kind of tired. My overall energy levels are down day to day. I seem to be eating enough, and have actually put on a few pounds (not sure if fat or muscle, but I have seen improvements in my size).

Now, should I continue to train this way, or should I stop going to failure and lower the reps? Should I pick a weight that I can do for X reps for X sets, and increase the weight when I can do all of those sets with that weight?

I don't want to burnout, and don't want to injury myself. So, if you guys can give me some useful advice, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Oh, if I forgot any info, let me know, and I'll add it in.

Also, I know that getting DOMS(delayed muscle soreness) is not a requirement for growth, but if I DO get it, does that mean I had a productive workout? I know it means that I incurred microtears in the muscle fiber, so seems like it's a good thing.

Thanks fellas.

[massmatters]

you don't need to go to failure to grow. what you need to do is make sure you're adding weight to you lifts each time you train. as for DOMS, you don't need to experience it to grow. is it beneficial? I really couldn't tell you. personally I believe it means you have the pottential for a productive workout. meaning if you caused a significant amount of microtrauma, you have the pottential for a significant amount of growth as those fibers heal. but that growth can only be realized if you're supplying your body with the spare building blocks. that's my personal view on it anyway.

[vito1281]

Originally posted by massmatters
you don't need to go to failure to grow. what you need to do is make sure you're adding weight to you lifts each time you train. as for DOMS, you don't need to experience it to grow. is it beneficial? I really couldn't tell you. personally I believe it means you have the pottential for a productive workout. meaning if you caused a significant amount of microtrauma, you have the pottential for a significant amount of growth as those fibers heal. but that growth can only be realized if you're supplying your body with the spare building blocks. that's my personal view on it anyway.

But if I'm not making the muscle fail, what will give it the stimulus to grow? If it's not failing to meet the demand I place on it, then why would it make itself stronger? I'm not doubting your opinion, I would just like to hear a scientific reasoning behind this.

Also, adding weight EVERY single time seems a little unrealistic. If I add weight every time I work out, imagine how strong I'll be after a year? I doubt I can do that, or anyone else for a sustained period of time. How about adding reps (while still not failing)? Is that good enough?

Thanks for the help.

[BigKazWSM747]

yes if you cant add weight adding reps will work. Although its ok to add weight if it just cuts down a rep.

Soreness is a small sign of growth but it isnt a very accurate sign as soreness can result for a variety of reasons.

If you are talking about strength and why going to failure isn't optimal i can answer that. Your muscles may be able to withstand such resistance (they are overtrained sometimes as well) but often your central nervous system will become overtrained in a matter of weeks and you'll stop gaining strength at all or it will delay your increases in strength. You can still gain size in this state as long as the overtraining isn't too bad and the reps/sets, nutrition, etc. is still good. This is why size and strength don't occur perfectly hand in hand with eachother.

[DawgPound]

You need to listen to your body. If you notice that your energy levels are down doing this workout then this might be a sign of overtraining.

You don't have to go to failure to achieve hypertrophy. In the gym you are breaking down the muscles. It's outside of the gym where you actually grow provided you are getting the proper nutrition and rest. Going to failure frequently will not give your body enough time to grow. Everybody is different and that is why it's important to see what works for you, but again you seem to be getting more tired, so your body might not be responding as optimally to this training.

As long as you are doing more reps or more weight each workout then you know you are getting stronger. While it may be unrealistic to add 10-20 lbs to the weight you lift every workout, even an increase of 1 lb is good. Just go up by the minimum amount of weight.

[Poppa Pump]

Take everything to failure. Most pro bodybuilders and trainers will agree that when you want to build tons of mass, you need to work your muscles until they can't be worked anymore, which doesn't mean just going to failure..it means going past failure. Use forced reps, drop sets, cheating, etc...to add on a couple of reps after you reach failure. This is how you'll make some amazing gains, because your muscles are being worked as hard as possible beyond all doubt, because you're going until you can't go anymore, than a little further. Peace

[massmatters]

the statement above is false. most bbers agree that when you need tons of mass you need to get on the cell-tech/nitro-tech stack.
your muscles grow as a result of microtrauma inflicted on the muscles. say you lift 100lbs today, that 100lbs will create microtrauma within the muscle. this will be then repaired stronger and bigger than it was before ( diet is key here ) so that another encounter with 100lbs will not damage the muscle to the same degree. next week if you lift 100lbs, you will not cause nearly as much microtrauma, and hence you will not get as much growth. say you've been lifting that 100lbs for 3-4 weeks now. well at this point chances are your mucles have become so uccostomed to the load that no microtrauma results, leaving no pottential for growth. that is why you need to keep increasing the load so that you can continue to damage the muscle, so that it will continue to adapt and grow stronger. I'm not saying bump the weight up every week, but I'm sure anyone can manage a 5lbs if not 10lbs bump on most of their core compound excercises every 2 weeks or so. that is one reason it is better to use compound exercises over isolation, as it is much easier to bump the weight up 5lbs on your flat bench press then on flyes or pec deck.

[BigKazWSM747]

Originally posted by Poppa Pump
Take everything to failure. Most pro bodybuilders and trainers will agree that when you want to build tons of mass, you need to work your muscles until they can't be worked anymore, which doesn't mean just going to failure..it means going past failure. Use forced reps, drop sets, cheating, etc...to add on a couple of reps after you reach failure. This is how you'll make some amazing gains, because your muscles are being worked as hard as possible beyond all doubt, because you're going until you can't go anymore, than a little further. Peace

This statement is untrue it caters to the HIT philosophy. Failure in general seems to be the point needed to reach for hypertrophy, however it is not optimal for strength gains. 1 set of exercise (as advocated by Heavy Duty) is near the best for either. There is no way you can stimulate as many fibers in 1 set to failure and beyond as you can in say 3 sets to failure.

[vito1281]

Originally posted by massmatters
the statement above is false. most bbers agree that when you need tons of mass you need to get on the cell-tech/nitro-tech stack.
your muscles grow as a result of microtrauma inflicted on the muscles. say you lift 100lbs today, that 100lbs will create microtrauma within the muscle. this will be then repaired stronger and bigger than it was before ( diet is key here ) so that another encounter with 100lbs will not damage the muscle to the same degree. next week if you lift 100lbs, you will not cause nearly as much microtrauma, and hence you will not get as much growth. say you've been lifting that 100lbs for 3-4 weeks now. well at this point chances are your mucles have become so uccostomed to the load that no microtrauma results, leaving no pottential for growth. that is why you need to keep increasing the load so that you can continue to damage the muscle, so that it will continue to adapt and grow stronger. I'm not saying bump the weight up every week, but I'm sure anyone can manage a 5lbs if not 10lbs bump on most of their core compound excercises every 2 weeks or so. that is one reason it is better to use compound exercises over isolation, as it is much easier to bump the weight up 5lbs on your flat bench press then on flyes or pec deck.

MASSMATTERS, thanks for your help. The thing is that I was under the impression that you create microtrauma during the last few reps of a set, and therefore, going to failure was optimal for creating the most trauma. That's why going to failure usually results in DOMS, and in my experience, if I don't go to failure, I'm not as sore the next day.

Also, BigKaz is saying to go to failure for mass (which is my #1 goal), and so here I am again, getting mixed suggestions.

Have either of you guys gotten better results by NOT going to failure? Or has going to failure been best for mass? Remember, I'm trying to make my muscles bigger first, and worry about strength second.

Thanks

[massmatters]

microtrauma is created throughout the set, not just on the last few reps. I personally like going to failure because it's intense, and I live for intensity. plus when you go to failure you know exactly how much strength you have gained from you last session. will going to failure make you gain more mass? probably not. I'm not saying train like a pussy, but you can get away with ending your sets a few reps shy of failure. eitherway the key to adding mass is progressing the weight. if you're not progressing the weight you lift, your mass gains will stagnate, regardless of whether you're going to failure or not.

[Poppa Pump]

Originally posted by vito1281
MASSMATTERS, thanks for your help. The thing is that I was under the impression that you create microtrauma during the last few reps of a set, and therefore, going to failure was optimal for creating the most trauma. That's why going to failure usually results in DOMS, and in my experience, if I don't go to failure, I'm not as sore the next day.

Also, BigKaz is saying to go to failure for mass (which is my #1 goal), and so here I am again, getting mixed suggestions.

Have either of you guys gotten better results by NOT going to failure? Or has going to failure been best for mass? Remember, I'm trying to make my muscles bigger first, and worry about strength second.

Thanks

I never got anywhere not going to failure. I go to failure on everything except for squats and leg press because that can be dangerous. And i don't do any forced reps on shoulders so as not to injure them. On the rest i always go past failure, and you'd make bigger mass gains than doing anything else. I can't remember ever not going to failure, it's just not in my nature. Im baffled when i see my friends not going to failure. It doesn't make you stronger because you can lift it all by yourself, it makes you stupid (for lack of a better term....no offence) for not working your muscle to it's fullest extent. Peace