Why do testosterone levels drop after 1 hour training and cortisol levels rise?

HolyMoly · 08-08-2009, 05:25 AM

I was wondering why this happens around this time frame (45 min/1 hour)? Or has it more to do with volume and intensity?

I mean you have people that "train" and you have peeople that TRAIN..

djartek · 08-08-2009, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyMoly

I was wondering why this happens around this time frame (45 min/1 hour)? Or has it more to do with volume and intensity?

I mean you have people that "train" and you have peeople that TRAIN..

Its called evolution...your body is designed to do that!

**_Dominik_** · 08-08-2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyMoly

I was wondering why this happens around this time frame (45 min/1 hour)? Or has it more to do with volume and intensity?

I mean you have people that "train" and you have peeople that TRAIN..

LULZ.

Firstly, I've never seen anything conclusive about training longer than 45-60 mins resulting in an elevation in cortisol.

Secondly, even if cortisol did rise briefly from a longer training session, it shouldn't be an issue provided your diet is in check and you're spiking insulin (which is anabolic) PWO.

Elevated cortisol would be more of an issue over longer periods of time where you're experiencing more stress outside the gym (i.e. stressful job, personal life, etc.), not eating enough, training too hard for too long without rest/deload periods, and not getting enough sleep.

Just my 2 cents.

SquatTilYouDrop · 08-08-2009, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Dominik_

LULZ.

Firstly, I've never seen anything conclusive about training longer than 45-60 mins resulting in an elevation in cortisol.

Secondly, even if cortisol did rise briefly from a longer training session, it shouldn't be an issue provided your diet is in check and you're spiking insulin (which is anabolic) PWO.

Elevated cortisol would be more of an issue over longer periods of time where you're experiencing more stress outside the gym (i.e. stressful job, personal life, etc.), not eating enough, training too hard for too long without rest/deload periods, and not getting enough sleep.

Just my 2 cents.

I've always thought this was exaggerated. Over blown by companies trying to pedal their cortisol reducing pills and potions. The levels probably don't fluctuate enough effectively, either way in a short period of time.

DJAuto · 08-08-2009, 06:49 AM

There is no credible evidence which points to this, other than experiments involving mice.

SquatTilYouDrop · 08-08-2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJAuto

There is no credible evidence which points to this, other than experiments involving mice.

Your post could to lead to many interesting lulz, later

djansen · 08-08-2009, 07:58 AM

There are so many variables to take into account that to say an hour into training your cortisol is raised for everyone.
When was your last meal?
rest periods?
intensity?
Sets to failure?
rep ranges?
exercise selection (deadlift vs lat raise)
and like Dominik said, outside variables.

Lean88 · 08-08-2009, 08:20 AM

I saw a guy train for 61mins, his muscles literally melted away so be careful

emac_fenian · 08-08-2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lean88

I saw a guy train for 61mins, his muscles literally melted away so be careful

That's why I set my stop watch as soon as I enter the doors of the gym. I stop as soon as it reaches 59 minutes just to be safe.

HolyMoly · 08-08-2009, 01:50 PM

Well has it to do with volume and intensity than and not time? I read that heavy compound exercises boost testosterone. Yet if you use to much volume the testosterone decreases and corisol levels increase..

Quote:

Volume Purge for Testosterone Surge?
April 18, 2009 by Steve Holman, Iron Man Editor in Chief Q: I’m concerned because I read that it takes a lot of sets to get a testosterone increase and stimulate the best mass results during a workout. Your programs call for only one or two work sets for each exercise. Do you have an answer to this dilemma?

A: There are a couple of landmark studies on workout volume and testosterone increase. One showed that it takes four sets of squats in a workout to get an increase (Schwab, R. et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 25:1381-1385; 1993). I usually recommend only two work sets. Am I missing something? Maybe not: Another study showed that five sets of squats done at only 50 percent of one-rep max, about 15 reps per set, triggered a significant testosterone increase (Kraemer, W.J., et al. J Str Cond Res. 17:455-462; 2003). So even lighter sets of squats can add to the anabolic-hormone surge.

That means your warmup sets on the big, multijoint exercises like squats can result in a cumulative T-releasing effect. I usually recommend two to three warmup sets prior to two intense work sets. Do 10 to 15 reps on most warmups, and your testosterone should stay on the increase. Plus, if you follow 3D Positions-of-Flexion leg programs, you do two sets of feet-forward Smith-machine squats for hamstring midrange work, which adds to the T-boosting effect. Stiff-legged deadlifts, the stretch-position move for hamstrings, add to it as well.

Something else to consider about volume: Too much can kill testosterone. The reason is that the body releases cortisol, a stress hormone that can cause muscle cannibalism—basically, your body starts throwing your hard-earned muscle into the energy furnace. How much training volume is too much?

A 2004 study used three groups of subjects: G1, the control subjects, didn’t exercise; G2 did 25 sets; and G3 did 50 sets. The workouts consisted of the big, basic exercises—squats, etc.—a few sets of each, and reps were five to 10 with 90 to 120 seconds of rest between sets. The high-volume group had significantly suppressed testosterone over a 24-hour period, although there was no drop in the moderate-volume group. (Alemany, J.A., et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 36:S238; 2004).

That’s why the programs I outline all contain no more than 25 to 30 work sets in any one workout—and usually fewer. Of course, if you’re on steroids, you can throw all of the above out the window. You can stand a lot more work, recover faster and grow more quickly. I choose not to go that route.

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/site/?p=2228

HolyMoly · 08-08-2009, 01:53 PM

Yet I always got the impression that a higher volume workout releases more testosterone

Also something to read:

Quote:

Testosterone Training
By Chris Thibaudeau

Okay, before you get the wrong impression, this article is not about training on the "juice". It is an article on how to maximise the effects of your own serum testosterone and how to increase it naturaly.

A Little Reminder

Testosterone is known as the male hormone, It is secreted by the testes and according to the most recent research it is so in a circadian (regular cycling) manner. Still according to these studies even if each individuals have slightly differant cycles it is the general rule that testosterone levels are at their highest in the morning. So training in the morning do have a slight advantage over working out later in the day.

As you probably already know testosterone is the muscle-building hormone. By synthesising proteins it rebuild the muscle fibers damaged by resistance training.

The amount of testosterone in your body is a limitating factor because you can't build more muscle if your testosterone levels are not high enough, that's why athletes who take synthetic testosterone (steroids) experience faster muscle growth, their limitating factor just disapeared.

But without plunging in the hell of performance enhancing drugs there is a way to increase your level of testosterone naturaly.

Effect of Weight Training on Serum Testosterone

Again, research prove, in a consistant manner, that the level of serum testosterone is higher after a bout of demanding resistance training. That increase being affected by the amount of muscle mass stimulated, the training load and the level of intensity (again intensity reffering to a %age of your 1RM).

Effect of the amount of muscle mass stimulated on serum testosterone

Findings all flood in the same direction as to say that the larger the amount of muscle mass is stimulated simultaneously, the more the testosterone level increase. You might have heard a trillion time that multi-joints exercises were better than isolation exercises to develop muscle mass and strength but without really knowing why.

Well this is one of the reasons: multi-joints exercise stimulate more testosterone production compared to single-joints movements. That's why doing heavy sets of squat will build you all around, because it shut your natural levels of testosterone through the roof!

For that reason the bulk of your program should be constituted of the basic, multi-joints movements, if you want more testosterone that is!

Yet despite that we see countless individuals doing endless hours of biceps curl, leg extension and the likes. Literaly wasting their time when they could be training productively!

Effect of the Training Load (volume) on Serum Testosterone

Most of the literature goes in the same way on this issue. Resistance exercise must be done at a sufficient volume to fully stimulate testosterone production. Too low a volume will not cause testosterone to be released a level near what higher volume do.

But that doesn't mean that you should hammer countless sets of countless exercises. Because if studies shown that an higher volume do cause more testosterone to be released those levels quickly decrease after 45 to 60 minutes. So giving that evidence I have to disgress slitghly from my original plan to include:

Effect of the Rest between Sets on Serum Testosterone

Since an higher volume lead to more testosterone but longer training time lead to less there must be a time factor somewhere that will enable us to conciliate the two. Of course it's the time of rest between your sets.

To cut a long story short, many studies researched that variable, the most significant being by Kraemer et al.

This research consisted of two groups, one performing an hypertrophy workout made of sets of 10 RM with a minute of rest between each sets.

The other one was a strength training consisting of multiple sets of 5 RM with 3 minutes between each sets.

Both group shown significant increase in serum testosterone, the earlier showing a slightly higher increase.

That indicate that hypertrophy workout do increase testosterone level more than strength training. Also shorter rest periods seem to have the same effect.

If 1 minute seem to lead to bigger increase in testosterone level than 3 minutes I wouldn't recommand going below 1 minute in hope to increase the testosterone level even more, because by doing so you would greatly impair your short-term recovery and would have to decrease your load.

Effect of Intensity on Serum Testosterone

As I just said hypertrophy training seem to bring more serum testosterone increase. But one shouldn't forget that the group performing sets of 5 RM with 3 minutes of rest also showed a significant increase. In fact for optimum testosterone increase the intensity should be kept between 5 and 10 RM with a rest time proportionate to these levels of intensity.

Effect of Time Under Tension on Serum Testosterone

If the repetition range is a good way to determine the level of intensity it might not be the best way to determine the optimum time under tension. TUT also play a big role in testosterone stimulation since it directly influence the type of training followed, and since hypertrophy showed an higher increase in serum testosterone the time under tension should be aimed toward that type of training (to maximise testosterone production at least, maximum strength is another thing). The optimum time for hypertrophy has been found to be between 40 and 70 seconds. Thus 10 reps at a tempo of 101 might be in the correct rep range but the time under tension (20 seconds) is not high enough for maximum hypertrophy, in this case it would be geared more toward neural adaptation.

Points to remember

1-You should stick with as many multi-joints exercises as you can.
2-You should use a training load high enough to fully stimulate testosterone production.
3-Keep your reps in the 5-10RM range,
4-Keep your rest between sets in the 3-1 minute(s) range according to your intensity level.
5-For maximum testosterone release keep your time under tension between 40 and 70 seconds.
6-Train early in the morning if you can. Not to worry if you can't since this don't have a huge effect.
7-Increase your post workout protein intake to take advantage of the testosterone spike.

References

Baxendale, P.M., M.J., Reed and V.H.T. James. Testosterone in saliva of normal men and it's relationship with unbound and total testosterone levels in plasma. J. Endocrin. 87:46P-4P.1980

Booth' A.A., A.C. Mazur, and J.M. Dabbs. Endogenous testosterone and competition: The effect of fasting. Steroids 20:269-278. 1972

Bridges. N.A., P.C. Hindmarsh, P.J. Pringle, D.R. Matthews and C.G.D. Brooks. The relationship endogenous testosterone and gonadotrophin secretion. Clin. Endocrin. 38:373-378. 1993

De Lacerda, L., A. Kowarski, A.J. Johanson, R. Athanasiou, and C.J. Migeon. Integrated concentration and circadian variation of plasma testosterone in normal men. J.Clin.Endocrin.Metab. 37:366-371. 1973

Fahey, T.D., R.Rolph, P. Moungmee, J.Nagel and S.Morata. Serum testosterone, body composition and strength of young adults. Med.Sci.Sport Exerc. 8:31-34. 1976

Florini. J.R. Effects of testosterone on qualitative pattern of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. Biochem. 9:909-912, 1970

Florini. J.R. Hormonal control of muscle cell growth. J.Animal Sci. 61:21-37. 1985

Fleck, S.J., and W.J.Kraemer. Designing Resistance training program. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics, 1997

Hakkinen, K,. and A.Pakarinen. Acute Hormonal responses to two differant fatiguing heavy-resistance protocols in male athletes. J.Appl.Physiol. 74:882-887, 1993

Kraemer, W.J., L. Marchitelli, S.E. Gordon, E.Harman, J.E. Dziados, R.Mello, P.Frykman, D. McCurry, and S.J. Fleck. Hormonal and growth factor responses to heavy resistance exercise protocols. J.Appl.Physiol. 69:1442-1450. 1990

Landman, A.D., L.M. Sanford, B.E. Howland, C.Dawes, and E.T. Pritchard. Testosterone in Human saliva. Experientia 32:940-941. 1976

Lejeune-Lenain, C., E.Vaucauter, D.Desir, M.Beyloos, and J.R.M. Franckson. Control of circadian and episodic variation of adrenal androgen secretion in man. J.Endocrin.Invest. 10:267-276. 1987

Loebel, C.C., and W.J. Kraemer. A brief review: Testosterone and resistance training in men. J.Strength and Cond.Res. 12(1):57-63. 1998

Staron, R.S., R.S. Hikida, F.C. Hagerman, G.A.Dudley and R.Murray. Human skeletal muscle fibers type to various workload. J.Histochem.Cytochem. 32:146-152. 1984

http://www.trulyhuge.com/weighttrain...stosterone.htm

HolyMoly · 08-11-2009, 04:12 AM

Bumo

Sir_Malak · 08-11-2009, 04:27 AM

Unless your very experienced and want an edge for whatever reason there are much more pressing things to worry about which I am sure most of do not have down to a perfect: diet, training routine, supplements, sleep schedules, mental preps etc...

Focusing on such small things means your either really great and should do whatever you can to help push you forward or your just dreaming and still want to know.

I have seen well developed people workout for three hours + and I have seen them work out for under an hour. Like I said if it really makes a difference its small at best.

My 2 cents.

ashr1 · 08-11-2009, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lean88

I saw a guy train for 61mins, his muscles literally melted away so be careful

loool!

ashr1 · 08-11-2009, 04:53 AM

I read drinking black tea reduces cortisol levels. It was advised to take a mixer of black tea to the gym with you...

Any1 heard the same?

I'd give you the link to the site, but I can't (under 30 posts)

if you wana confirm, type black tea cortisol in google and read the BBC report on it...
I've been doing this now, for a few weeks, and it really does help but I dont know if its a placaebo thing going on... hmmmmmm???

JOHN GARGANI · 08-11-2009, 06:03 AM

a lot of great answers in this thread by some knowledgeable people.....which is why I am going to now come in with my usual overblown histrionics! LOL....

This thread reminds me of people who come on with this kind of inquiry: " how do I know how much fast twitch fibers I have, or slow twitch........." how do I work my white muscle more than my red muscle"...etc and so on......

really......is that your biggest concern when training????

your body IS what it IS: don't worry about when your cortisol kicks in or doesn't kick in....

obviously it happens for a reason, it is a normal metabolic process......

similarly to kicking in a bit when you sleep: "How do I keep from cannibalizing my muscle overnight?".....and then those threads.....

where someone sets his alarm to wake up twice overnight and drink a protein drink! AHHAHAHAHA.......

There is an optimal time for a workout that must be discovered by everyone: this is NOT going to be discovered in a chemistry lab.....in plain english:

YOU HAVE TO FEEL IT!!!

that is the bottom line: you have to learn how to feel it....you have to learn how to know, from day to day and from workout to workout, when enough is enough....

when to say when, so to speak......

it will NEVER, EVER be a set amount of time that applies to all people OR EVEN TO YOURSELF!

THAT RIGHT! even for YOU, this time will vary from day to day, depending upon hundreds of various unknown biological markers and conditions......

so: unless you get a FEEL for when to say when, you will never really know......

there is no easy way out here, just as there is no easy way out for numbers of sets and reps or, one of my favorites: "percentages of maximum lift"......

what does a percentage of maximum lift mean on a low energy day???

I won't get off the original topic.......you are looking at a learning process of listening to your body......

XXX666 · 08-11-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI

you are looking at a learning process of listening to your body......

Thanks John!

OP! Information stated in that article is information for you to be aware of. Like John said, you have to learn how your body responds while taking in consideration information posted about what different hormones are saturated in your body during the duration of your workouts. Information and body awareness will help you make the best decisions during your workout.

There is A LOT OF CHEMISTRY involved in bodybuilding, its not as easy as lifting something up and putting it back down several times over and over again. If it were that easy then everybody would be doing it.

Take into account while your working out:
1. how much energy do you feel you have
2. how physically fatigued you feel
3. how mentally fatigued you feel *you need to concentrate and focus*
4. are you being distracted easily during your sets
5. are you burning out quickly during your sets
6. aches & pains
7. did you have a good pump and your starting to lose it.

Things to think about.

Mr.Runner · 08-11-2009, 07:25 AM

From what I've read, a decrease in circulating testosterone is a mark that the workout was effective...meaning you've disrupted the body's balance and forced an adaptation. Once the training stress has been adapted to and your T goes back to baseline or above baseline, you've recovered.

Was this the Hormonal Fluctuation model?

chazzy1864 · 08-11-2009, 08:07 AM

It could also be the fact ,that those articles are based around one skewed study that analyzed endurance athletes, and people tried to apply it to lifting.

However, as John said, just do your workout. Don't worry about what releases testosterone or cortisol. Just lift. There are articles and studies that directly contradict each other.

People honestly need to stop seeking the fabled test release. Just lift, eat intelligently, and rest. You'll be fine.

name1234 · 08-11-2009, 08:31 AM

i think the best take away point = focus compound exercises (clean&presses,squats,deads,etc)...but we all knew this

chazzy1864 · 08-11-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyMoly

Yet I always got the impression that a higher volume workout releases more testosterone

Also something to read:

http://www.trulyhuge.com/weighttrain...stosterone.htm

Ugh....just read over the article you linked. That is the usual crap that gets parroted when it comes to this BS subject.

Quote:

Points to remember

1-You should stick with as many multi-joints exercises as you can.
2-You should use a training load high enough to fully stimulate testosterone production.
3-Keep your reps in the 5-10RM range,
4-Keep your rest between sets in the 3-1 minute(s) range according to your intensity level.
5-For maximum testosterone release keep your time under tension between 40 and 70 seconds.
6-Train early in the morning if you can. Not to worry if you can't since this don't have a huge effect.
7-Increase your post workout protein intake to take advantage of the testosterone spike.

1) Yet, I want a symmetrical build and fully developed muscles, so I think I'll use many isolations as well.
2) WTF does that even mean?
3) That is true, if you are actually so concerned with the test release.
4) Actually shorter rest periods are shown to increase test more. So no more than 1 minute. Kind of difficult when focusing on all compounds though, eh?
5)Studies show that as well.
6) Early morning test is the highest, yet so is estrogen. As the day goes on, both fall, but estrogen falls more, giving you a better ratio of test to estrogen...so really, training at night could argued that it is better.
7) Buy some supps!!!

The other reason alot of this is stupid is, although everyone talks about doing certain exercises to increase test, it is the rest periods that seem to have a bigger effect on it, than the exercise selection. That being said, one study I read, showed that after about 10 weeks, any extra benefit of controlling your rest periods was gone, due to your body adapting.

So again.....stop worrying about the test release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by name1234

i think the best take away point = focus compound exercises (clean&presses,squats,deads,etc)...but we all knew this

That's not what I'd take away from it, but that's just me.

darinaldi · 08-11-2009, 09:28 AM

Here's an old quote from Lyle McDonald on cortisol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle McDonald

Normal physiological pulses of cortisol are necessary for healthy normal function (for example, the morning spike in cortisol is required for optimal lipolysis). There's a reason the stress response occurs and that we evolved it.

Considering that protein breakdown following training appears to be required to turn on protein synthesis (see the research on anti-inflammatories and how blocking the inflammatory prostaglandins inhibit normal protein synthesis), blocking cortisol post training may not be a very good idea at all.

For muscular remodeling to occur, you need both breakdown AND synthesis to occur.

It's when cortisol is chronically, pathologically elevated that problems start.

HolyMoly · 08-11-2009, 06:09 PM

I started this thread to inform myself better. I'm curious, So what do you guys take from this articles, or from things you've learned/read yourself? More volume relases more testosterone? Or is it bad? As the one article stated, when doing 50 sets, cortisol increases and testosterone decreases. That's something to consider when training, not?

Niblixdark · 08-11-2009, 06:11 PM

blah blah blah .. blah just workout and eat FFS !!!

chazzy1864 · 08-11-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyMoly

I started this thread to inform myself better. I'm curious, So what do you guys take from this articles, or from things you've learned/read yourself? More volume relases more testosterone? Or is it bad? As the one article stated, when doing 50 sets, cortisol increases and testosterone decreases. That's something to consider when training, not?

What should you take from it?

That too much information, is sometimes a bad thing.

As stated, forget about all that garbage, lift, eat and rest. You will do much better putting this effort into being more nutrional savvy, and devising good workout splits.

HolyMoly · 08-11-2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chazzy1864

What should you take from it?

That too much information, is sometimes a bad thing.

As stated, forget about all that garbage, lift, eat and rest. You will do much better putting this effort into being more nutrional savvy, and devising good workout splits.

Keej, still. Saying that people should just lift, eat and rest isn't such a great anwser, it's a guideline at the least.. ?'m wondering about a specific subject: what kind of effects have volume/intensity/time (parametres) on testosterone and cortisol levels? And how come? (to put it in a nutshell).

It's better to ask a stupid question than to not ask questions at all.. (imo)

chazzy1864 · 08-11-2009, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyMoly

Keej, still. Saying that people should just lift, eat and rest isn't such a great anwser, it's a guideline at the least.. ?'m wondering about a specific subject: what kind of effects have volume/intensity/time (parametres) on testosterone and cortisol levels? And how come? (to put it in a nutshell).

It's better to ask a stupid question than to not ask questions at all.. (imo)

You did ask the question, and you got many differing answers. Yet it seems they aren't the answer you want, so you keep asking.

Go ahead, and keep trying to make weight training far more complicated than it has to be. Keep studying the releases of testosterone and cortisol and growth hormone and their effects on the body.

An inside bit of info, the only people you really see talking about the test and cortisol releases, are the CSCS's that have books to sell. It is a way to help justify whatever workout program they are marketing, and use that to sound as if there is something actually really special to their programs.

HolyMoly · 08-11-2009, 06:40 PM

Only things that helped where awsers from Djansen, john and xxx666, by pointing out what kind of parameters are invloved and in what state your body is in. It's logical that if you go to failure or beyond, with high volume cortisol would rise faster than if you don't train to failure or huge high volume. If you are rested or not, ect..

I just find it intersting that the people who used 50 sets with 5-10 reps and 90-120 seconds rest showed a decrease in testosterone for over 24 hours. 50 sets with 5-10 reps (doesn't tell if it was till failure, so that's a shame) with 90-120 seconds rest is high volume, but I didn't think it would be high enough to have such effects.

JOHN GARGANI · 08-12-2009, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niblixdark

blah blah blah .. blah just workout and eat FFS !!!

thank you....if only I could be that concise! LOL....

SquatTilYouDrop · 08-12-2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyMoly

Only things that helped where awsers from Djansen, john and xxx666, by pointing out what kind of parameters are invloved and in what state your body is in. It's logical that if you go to failure or beyond, with high volume cortisol would rise faster than if you don't train to failure or huge high volume. If you are rested or not, ect..

I just find it intersting that the people who used 50 sets with 5-10 reps and 90-120 seconds rest showed a decrease in testosterone for over 24 hours. 50 sets with 5-10 reps (doesn't tell if it was till failure, so that's a shame) with 90-120 seconds rest is high volume, but I didn't think it would be high enough to have such effects.

I find it interesting how you persist on this subject. The horse has been beaten to death. Let it die in peace.