Hiroshima, 64 years ago

[EOY]

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/200...years_ago.html

[ZionNYC]

Originally Posted by EOY

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/200...years_ago.html

But seriously Japan has made a great recovery from it. They're among the world leaders in industry, economy, and have set up a good system over there.

[US_Ranger]

In b4 ****storm

[IraHays]

Originally Posted by US_Ranger

In b4 ****storm

Oh yeah, you know it's cominig.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by US_Ranger

In b4 ****storm

have you read the misc version of this thread?

it will be interesting to compare both. hopefully this one will be more intellectual.

[swagtime911]

Japan was a vile empire that deserved what it got. I feel no pity for them whatsoever, none. After reading about Unit 731, I was content the bombing was just. I could only imagine what Japan would have done had they invaded America.

[JustAnotherUser]

The attack on civilians was justified. In a conflict like WWII, there are no innocents. The soldiers are conscripts, who have no choice but to fight. They aren't choosing to go into conflict. The entire national economies (for all WWII countries) were streamlined for one thing: war. The farmers fed the troops. The cities built the weapons and machines necessary to conduct war. In this setting, no one is "innocent". Everyone is a death dealer. The person who shoots the bullet is just as responsible for the death that follows as the person who makes it. A WWII commander would see killing civilians not as a horrible thing to do, but a way to cripple the support of the enemy combatants. Killing "civilians" hinders the enemy's war effort. Killing civilians means that there aren't people to manufacture machines of war or feed the armies.

In a war like WWII, there are no innocents. Except for the kids, but sadly, there's no way to avoid that since where there are adults, they tend to have their kids.

[US_Ranger]

Originally Posted by swagtime911

Japan was a vile empire that deserved what it got. I feel no pity for them whatsoever, none. After reading about Unit 731, I was content the bombing was just. I could only imagine what Japan would have done had they invaded America.

And heeeeeeeeere we go.

[Beatitude]

Hiroshima & Nagasaki was wrong.

Mussolini and Hitler were dead. The European axis was crushed. The Japanese Navy was sunk. They were an isolated nation rung dry of oil and with no chance of victory. The argument that they all would have fought to the death, resulting in 8 million more casualties, is presumptuous and probably wrong. There was building pressure to end the war even within Japan and there probably would have been alternative options, except Truman was in a rush to end the war as quickly as possible. It wasn't a bombing of necessity; it was of convenience.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by Beatitude

Hiroshima & Nagasaki was wrong.

Mussolini and Hitler were dead. The European axis was crushed. The Japanese Navy was sunk. They were an isolated nation rung dry of oil and with no chance of victory. The argument that they all would have fought to the death, resulting in 8 million more casualties, is presumptuous and probably wrong. There was building pressure to end the war even within Japan and there probably would have been alternative options, except Truman was in a rush to end the war as quickly as possible. It wasn't a bombing of necessity; it was of convenience.

there really was no need to invade japan at that point anyways. their offensive abilities were non existent at this point, and they were willing to submit to a conditional surrender. they were of no threat to us.

the only motivation that seems logical for the US leaders to drop the nukes was so the japanese government would allow us to build up a military presence in japan before russia got to them. obviously our trade relations with japan would not have been the same if russia invaded them before we could.

[Shortfuze]

big thread on this already OP

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ight=hiroshima

(it's in the misc section though but surprisingly good discussion and arguments)

[ZionNYC]

Originally Posted by Beatitude

Hiroshima & Nagasaki was wrong.

Mussolini and Hitler were dead. The European axis was crushed. The Japanese Navy was sunk. They were an isolated nation rung dry of oil and with no chance of victory. The argument that they all would have fought to the death, resulting in 8 million more casualties, is presumptuous and probably wrong. There was building pressure to end the war even within Japan and there probably would have been alternative options, except Truman was in a rush to end the war as quickly as possible. It wasn't a bombing of necessity; it was of convenience.

That was NOT THE POINT.
Fail.

The point was to show the Commies that we have that power and strength.

[Beatitude]

Originally Posted by ZionNYC

That was NOT THE POINT.
Fail.

The point was to show the Commies that we have that power and strength.

Because nuking two cities in Japan was the only way we could let the Soviets know "Hey, we have these new bombs that can level cities"? Something about that sounds really doubtful.

We can produce deadly biological weapons now as well. Should we drop it on Hiroshima again to show the North Koreans what we're capable of?

[swagtime911]

Actually I think the point was we were already stretched pretty thin beating up on the Nazi's and to invade Japan would have cost a huge amount in both dollars and soldiers. Not to mention the forced occupation of Japan that was sure to follow.

[Bulging_Biceps]

Originally Posted by EOY

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/200...years_ago.html

Boom...Nothing Everywhere

[AJbuilder]

Originally Posted by Beatitude

There was building pressure to end the war even within Japan

No there wasn't. All the primary source research I've read have not indicated there were any mounting pressure by the Imperial Court to end the war, even after Hitler died. The war cabinet only started considering a surrender after Hiroshima, not before. You can see for yourself by reading some of the declassified government archives of Hirohito's Court.

In fact, the Japanese were organizing for suicide squads in all the rural towns.

It was only after Hiroshima that Hirohito gave in. Prior to the bombing, he held a meeting with his war cabinet to discuss winning a decisive battle in Tokyo or somewhere on the mainland which would help them negotiate with a ceasefire. Tojo agreed, then resigned knowing they had already lost. Their last hope was to fight one final battle before negotiating with the allies, hoping Truman would accept.

He never wanted to surrender on unconditional terms because they did not want an occupation. But after Nagasaki, he had no more leverage and surrendered without terms.

[IraHays]

Strong reviotionist history in this thread.


Japan had every oppurtunity to surrender. they didn't.

[a_ahmed]

An early example of the future foretold of American imperialism.

And also an example that despite the demonic imperialism that the US imposes hawkishly over the world with it's mass military complex, people weak and frail will ultimately prevail over the US.

[IraHays]

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

An early example of the future foretold of American imperialism

stfu you stupid mother f*cker. Unless you're prepared to list the countries the US has annexed and used nuclear weapons on since 1945?

I can only imagine what horrible things whatever sh*tty country you come from have done.

[Beatitude]

@AJ:

I had in mind the general attitude of the Japan. It wasn't a 100% devoted fanatical warmachine like it's made out to be; or it least not after they had been slaughtered on all fronts and they were left with their mainland. Everybody burns out.

You're not required to use a weapon to show a people that you have it. Japan didn't realize what would happen until it happened. For what purpose? Element of surprise? The USA had complete air superiority. Because they didn't want the Soviets to get to them? The USA had uncontested supremacy over the Soviets in the water: there could never have been a Soviet invasion without the USA's approval. What kind of efforts were made to end the war once the US had nukes?

They did it because basically everybody, including Truman, was caught up in the rush of the biggest war ever, and diplomacy was the last thing on anybodies mind. He wanted the war over fast and easily, and nukes opened up that option. There's a big difference between asking Japan to surrender when you have to do a conventional invasion, and asking Japan to surrender when you can level their cities from a high-flying bomber. And Hirohito was not an Adolf Hitler; he would doubtfully be content with letting his country get torn to the ground.

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by IraHays

stfu you stupid mother f*cker.

leave that in the misc thread pls.

[IraHays]

Originally Posted by ZexCui

leave that in the misc thread pls.

Jesus, you serious? I answered a dumbasss "misc" post with one of my own.

[a_ahmed]

Originally Posted by IraHays

stfu you stupid mother f*cker. Unless you're prepared to list the countries the US has annexed and used nuclear weapons on since 1945?

I can only imagine what horrible things whatever sh*tty country you come from have done.

Sure here are some countries the US bombed past hiroshima:

The bombing list

Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)

Guatemala 1954

Indonesia 1958

Cuba 1959-1961

Guatemala 1960

Congo 1964

Laos 1964-73

Vietnam 1961-73

Cambodia 1969-70

Guatemala 1967-69

Grenada 1983

Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)

Libya 1986

El Salvador 1980s

Nicaragua 1980s

Iran 1987

Panama 1989

Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)

Kuwait 1991

Somalia 1993

Bosnia 1994, 1995

Sudan 1998

Afghanistan 1998

Yugoslavia 1999

Yemen 2002

Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)

Iraq 2003-05

Afghanistan 2001-05

Plus
Iran, April 2003 ? hit by US missiles during bombing of Iraq, killing at least one persdon {2}

Pakistan, 2002-03 ? bombed by US planes several times as part of combat against the Taliban and other opponents of the US occupation of Afghanistan {3}

China, 1999 ? its heavily bombed embassy in Belgrade is legally Chinese territory, and it appears rather certain that the bombing was no accident (see chapter 25)

Don't forget MOAB on iraq and the 'shock and awe'

This is just scratching the surface, not to mention the many PROXY wars the US has fought.

[IraHays]

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

Sure here are some countries the US bombed past hiroshima:

Just as I thought. YOu can't answer the question.

You implied the US used Nukes to expand their "Empire".

The only problem that that is, they have never annexed a country, isn't that what empires do??? They never used nukes after WWII, and they had a period of when they were the only ones that had them. strange for an evil empire to use such restraint, no?

what sh*thole, backward arse country are you from?

[ZexCui]

Originally Posted by IraHays

Strong reviotionist history in this thread.


Japan had every oppurtunity to surrender. they didn't.

japan did offer a conditional surrender, iirc. they just didn't want troops and bases on their soil.

edit: that, or they were planning too. i forget which. i might look it up.

[a_ahmed]

Originally Posted by IraHays

Just as I thought. YOu can't answer the question.

You implied the US used Nukes to expand their "Empire".

Sure does keep alot of people in line. "You screw with us we'll bomb you". Could warning.

"They surrendered" uh huh.

The only problem that that is, they have never annexed a country, isn't that what empires do???

That's because the US utilizes a different tactic. People had enough ceasars, hitlers, stalins, etc... Look at the modern global empire, people are not FORCED to be slaves but are conciously led to personal choices to be slaves to society (eg: media, fashion industry, credits/loans interest rates raping families of their earnings), etc... etc...

Likewise the US can't just be like "you know what we gona invade you and enslave you" cause people would rebel, instead give incentives, false premises, false promises, lies. The only thing that is old fashioned is fear mongering "BE AWARE OF THE EVIL TERRORISTS WE WILL SAVE YOU" but hitler went through that phase too so people are more warry of that already.

They never used nukes after WWII, and they had a period of when they were the only ones that had them. strange for an evil empire to use such restraint, no?

LOL you clearly don't know about the nuclear arms race and have historical memory lapse/amnesia of all that. Who cares if the US didn't use a nuke on a POPULATION past wwII, but they sure as hell bombed and screwed up alot of countries WITHOUT nuclear weapons past ww2

what sh*thole, backward arse country are you from?

Oh I don't know, I'm kind of international not American that's for sure. I am not as great as the mighty and isolated utopia island of tooth fairies of the united states of A



I come from the place with no tv or escalators and lived amongst dragons

[IraHays]

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

Sure does keep alot of people in line. "You screw with us we'll bomb you". Could warning.

Yeah, that's work real great. wtf? you're the one that listed all the conficts the USA was in. LMAO, I guess those countries were scared. Maybe they realized the US is civilized and would not use such a weapon without great cause???

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

That's because the US utilizes a different tactic. People had enough ceasars, hitlers, stalins, etc... Look at the modern global empire, people are not FORCED to be slaves but are conciously led to personal choices to be slaves to society (eg: media, fashion industry, credits/loans interest rates raping families of their earnings), etc... etc...

lulz. I see you've been listening to your countries state run tV. so the global economy is the work of the evil Empire, the USA!! lmao.

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

Likewise the US can't just be like "you know what we gona invade you and enslave you" cause people would rebel, instead give incentives, false premises, false promises, lies. The only thing that is old fashioned is fear mongering "BE AWARE OF THE EVIL TERRORISTS WE WILL SAVE YOU" but hitler went through that phase too so people are more warry of that already.

WTF are you talking about? Are you suggesting the US couldn't take over Cuba in less then a week because the people would "rebel"?

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

LOL you clearly don't know about the nuclear arms race and have historical memory lapse/amnesia of all that. Who cares if the US didn't use a nuke on a POPULATION past wwII, but they sure as hell bombed and screwed up alot of countries WITHOUT nuclear weapons past ww2

I don't?? Maybe you don't. The US was the SOLE nuclear power until 1953. and really the only country that could mass produce and deliver them effectivly for longer than that. Why didn't the evil empire take some ground duriing that time? Oh wait, we were using that time to REBUILD germany and Japan, the very countries that attacked the US. If the USA is an evil empire, they are doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

Oh I don't know, I'm kind of international not American that's for sure. I am not as great as the mighty as the isolated island of tooth fairies of the united states of A

Typical coward.

[jmonty]

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

An early example of the future foretold of American imperialism.

And also an example that despite the demonic imperialism that the US imposes hawkishly over the world with it's mass military complex, people weak and frail will ultimately prevail over the US.

oh ya, because american imperialism didn't start at least ~50 years prior to that.

oh wait, ya it did!

[IraHays]

Originally Posted by a_ahmed

. I am not as great as the mighty and isolated utopia island of tooth fairies of the united states of A

I come from the place with no tv or escalators and lived amongst dragons

You believe in Allah, so you kind of do live in a fantasy land.

brb, condeming the USA but hanging homos and stoning women.

[a_ahmed]

lol so you idiots just proved my point.



hahahahha.

Stop it, you're killing me (lol maybe literally, don't you just wish to bomb me too? Hater)

So who's next? Iran, Somalia, Eritrea? Which country's next to feel the wrath of the civilized US

Apparently tens of millions of people internationally protesting in historical record numbers against the iraq war was not enough to persuade the merciful US to not enter any wars.