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  1. #1
    Registered User mac520's Avatar
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    Incorporating power cleans into 5x5

    I'm replacing the rows with power cleans because I never liked rows and power cleans seem more fun. I just started a 5x5 program after stalling with starting strength and decided to start learning power cleans. Should I implement the power cleans in a novice fashion (starting with the bar, doing 5 sets of 3 reps, same weight across, adding 5 lbs per workout) or in an intermediate fashion (find 5RM, start at 92.5% of 5RM on the first week, add 2.5% per week, ramp the weight up from the first set to the 5th set, use friday to do less volume and break a new PR)? I figure since I am completely untrained in power cleans, it would be better for me to start implementing them in a novice fashion. However, will this have any negative effects on the rest of my workout?

    Also, should I modify the 5x5 ramping scheme for something else since power cleans are an explosive movement would 5 reps be too high? 5x3? Ramping or same weight across?
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  2. #2
    Shut up and Squat! SpongeTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mac520 View Post
    I'm replacing the rows with power cleans because I never liked rows and power cleans seem more fun. I just started a 5x5 program after stalling with starting strength and decided to start learning power cleans. Should I implement the power cleans in a novice fashion (starting with the bar, doing 5 sets of 3 reps, same weight across, adding 5 lbs per workout) or in an intermediate fashion (find 5RM, start at 92.5% of 5RM on the first week, add 2.5% per week, ramp the weight up from the first set to the 5th set, use friday to do less volume and break a new PR)? I figure since I am completely untrained in power cleans, it would be better for me to start implementing them in a novice fashion. However, will this have any negative effects on the rest of my workout?

    Also, should I modify the 5x5 ramping scheme for something else since power cleans are an explosive movement would 5 reps be too high? 5x3? Ramping or same weight across?
    Start in a novice fashion, as you are new to the lift. Move onto intermediate when you stall. It doesnt matter if your program is slightly mixed like this.

    Go 5x3, same weight across.

    PS awesome stuff for deciding to go with power cleans
    Height - 5'11""
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  3. #3
    Registered User mac520's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SpongeTom View Post
    Start in a novice fashion, as you are new to the lift. Move onto intermediate when you stall. It doesnt matter if your program is slightly mixed like this.

    Go 5x3, same weight across.

    PS awesome stuff for deciding to go with power cleans
    I'm bumping this because I have another question.

    I've built my 5x3 power clean up to 135 lbs. I think I'm at my max... a couple of my reps were pretty ugly. Should I keep doing 5x3, or is there a better intermediate set/rep scheme for power cleans? I understand as a power exercise they don't obey the same rules that squat and bench press do.

    Should I do 5x3, ramping the weight, i.e. 75-90-105-120-135? Then on Fridays, add 5 lbs to the final set and only do 1 or 2 reps?
    Last edited by mac520; 12-20-2009 at 02:33 PM.
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    Registered User mac520's Avatar
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    Bump Please
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    Registered User zephed56's Avatar
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    What are your squat/DL numbers?

    You probably need some form improvement. Getting stronger also helps. Basically those two are going to drive you clean numbers up. Nothing special after that is really needed for a while with someone with your clean numbers.

    The power clean moves more slowly than squats/DL's, so you need to find some kind of microplate solution and start adding weight in smaller increments than 5 lbs a workout. 2" washers work well and are cheap, chains can be used as well, and there are fairly expensive microplates you can buy.

    If your third reps of each set get a bit ugly you can start using sets of 2 as well or 3 singles clustered together (take 15-30 sec between each rep or so imo). I would still keep doing sets of 3 fairly regularly however.

    What is your current workout routine, in it's entirety?
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    stretching blows boathead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mac520 View Post
    Should I do 5x3, ramping the weight, i.e. 75-90-105-120-135? Then on Fridays, add 5 lbs to the final set and only do 1 or 2 reps?
    that sounds like a good plan. it will permit your max to continue upwards.
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    Registered User mac520's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zephed56 View Post
    What are your squat/DL numbers?

    You probably need some form improvement. Getting stronger also helps. Basically those two are going to drive you clean numbers up. Nothing special after that is really needed for a while with someone with your clean numbers.

    The power clean moves more slowly than squats/DL's, so you need to find some kind of microplate solution and start adding weight in smaller increments than 5 lbs a workout. 2" washers work well and are cheap, chains can be used as well, and there are fairly expensive microplates you can buy.

    If your third reps of each set get a bit ugly you can start using sets of 2 as well or 3 singles clustered together (take 15-30 sec between each rep or so imo). I would still keep doing sets of 3 fairly regularly however.

    What is your current workout routine, in it's entirety?
    Squat: 5x240
    DL: Was 5x285... but now its about 5x260 (seems to be going down for some reason).

    My current routine is a simple 5x5:

    Monday:
    Squat 5x5 ramping
    Bench 5x5 ramping
    Clean 5x3 same weight across

    Wednesday:
    Squat 4x5 ramping
    Press 4x5 ramping
    DL 4x5 ramping

    Friday:
    Squat: 4x5 ramping, 1x3 new PR, 1x8 backoff set
    Bench: 4x5 ramping, 1x3 new PR, 1x8 backoff set
    Clean: 5x3 same weight across

    When I incorporated cleans I wasn't sure how to use the sets and reps, so I just did what Starting Strength outlines with 5x3 same weight across. However, I'm wondering if there's a good intermediate set/rep scheme for cleans. I don't think the problem is microloading or rest time between reps. I don't see how adding 2 lbs to my clean is going to help me break a plateau by any appreciable amount. I believe the problem resides in the intermediate progression: where the workload so much that fatigue overwhelms fitness, and thus high/med/low days are necessary to modulate fitness and fatigue.

    Originally Posted by boathead View Post
    that sounds like a good plan. it will permit your max to continue upwards.
    So what's a good set/rep scheme for the friday workout? 4x3, 1x2? 4x3, 1x1? 4x3, 1x2, 1x5 (backoff set)?
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  8. #8
    Registered User zephed56's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mac520 View Post
    Squat: 5x240
    DL: Was 5x285... but now its about 5x260 (seems to be going down for some reason).
    Most likely you are not recovering completely week to week and are accumulating fatigue. Consider dropping a few worksets of DL's or subbing in an assistance exercise there for a week or two. Is the 4x5 sets across at the same weight or is it ramping?

    I don't think the problem is microloading or rest time between reps. I don't see how adding 2 lbs to my clean is going to help me break a plateau by any appreciable amount. I believe the problem resides in the intermediate progression: where the workload so much that fatigue overwhelms fitness, and thus high/med/low days are necessary to modulate fitness and fatigue.
    Think again. If you are no longer capable of making 5 lb jumps on a lift the best way to progress is to add weight in smaller increments. 5 lbs is really arbitrary and is actually quite a bit of weight for this lift, and 2.5 lbs is not an insignificant amount to add. With 2x per week frequency it still adds up to a significant amount of weight. It will certainly help break a plateau and I have used it successfully with both power cleans and overhead presses where 5 lb jumps just led to lots of fail.

    imo cleans are not that fatiguing as a whole on the system (like squats and deads are), so I'm not sure built up fatigue is the problem. If it is, I would just make one day lighter and lower volume and keep the 5x3 heavy for the other day, and use microloading when necessary.

    I do sometimes just do a few heavy singles and try to break a PR once in awhile, but not too often because it is not really productive training.
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    Registered User matjusm's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mac520 View Post
    I'm replacing the rows with power cleans because I never liked rows and power cleans seem more fun.
    Power cleans are an excellent exercise but you shouldn't cut out rowing motions altogether. Otherwise you aren't really hitting your lats, rhomboids, biceps, anterior delts and various smaller muscles at all if you don't do some sort of pulling motion. You'll basically be ignoring a whole bunch of muscle groups.
    Strength + Speed = Power

    If you never fail, you aren't truly pushing yourself to the limit. If you never push yourself to the limit, how do you know what you're truly capable of?
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  10. #10
    Registered User mac520's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by matjusm View Post
    Power cleans are an excellent exercise but you shouldn't cut out rowing motions altogether. Otherwise you aren't really hitting your lats, rhomboids, biceps, anterior delts and various smaller muscles at all if you don't do some sort of pulling motion. You'll basically be ignoring a whole bunch of muscle groups.
    Well, now that I've posted my routine, on which day should I add in an upper body pull? What set/rep scheme? Does it matter if i choose rows or pullups?
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