Why nobody is critiquing your workout (READ THIS before making a beginner program)

[GuyJin]

Problem is, many noobs who log on to this forum won't bother listening to the truth. And the truth sometimes hurts. They won't bother reading this post or other good ones like it because they think they know better and can't be bothered to work hard.

The simple facts are these: You need to use basic lifts starting out of the gate. There is a time and place for leg extensions, pullovers, tricep pushdowns, concentration curls, laterals and the like, but the truth is that all of the big and strong guys, every single one of them, both past and present, got to be big and strong by focusing on the major lifts. If not benches, then inclines. If not squats (although most guys then as now did or do them) then front squats, lunges, and leg presses. If not deadlifts, then heavy good mornings (i.e. Bruce Randall)...and so on. Presses, shrugs, dips, rows...the list goes on, and all the old-timers and the pros and high amateurs now do them, or equally hard variations on them.

And these lifts are not glamorous. They are hard to do, take your energy out of you, make you hurt (in a good way) all over. But they are effective, and they work, and that's why they should be done.

[Bamma]

What's really bothersome is the guys who will post asking for advice, then flat out say they are not going to follow the good advice they have received. People just flat saying they will not do the core lifts (squats, DL, Bench, rows, press) and insist they are okay doing something else. There should be a test you have to pass before even posting.

[xXDeadmanXx]

Death to noobs.

[stracin]

Bump for the morning newbies

[Miketoc]

I like it but I'd maybe remove "beginner" from the title. Like you said, half the beginners posting routines don't actually think they are. Very nice post

[sircharles032]

bumpity

[brudman]

I like it but I'd maybe remove "beginner" from the title. Like you said, half the beginners posting routines don't actually think they are. Very nice post

Very true.

"I'm a verteran of bodybuilding. How come I can't have teh gainz?"

[ironwill2008]

Posting that " I play Rugby / run a lot / ride a bike / (take your pick), so I'm not going to train my legs" is the best way I know to get your post overlooked.

Same goes with stating that you "don't have time to eat."

If your thinking is along these lines, you'd do better to find a different "hobby;" bodybuilding isn't for you.

[CookAndrewB]

What I have experienced is that people come seeking confirmation, not critique. What they want is to hear that they are right. So THEY know they are right, and they seek others who support this thought, and when you aren't one of those people they ignore you.

I wrote up a simple, but pretty decent strongman training (gym work only, no implements available) workout the other day. Within three days I saw my workout re-posted, completely f*ckered up, with all kinds of "Does this workout look good?"

...They didn't, and I instantly jumped in and posted the workout as written. The thing is I can't understand why the changes were made, they make no sense and seem almost random.

I have a strong urge to neg people that I bother to help and who ignore it.

[Bamma]

What I have experienced is that people come seeking confirmation, not critique. What they want is to hear that they are right. So THEY know they are right, and they seek others who support this thought, and when you aren't one of those people they ignore you.

I wrote up a simple, but pretty decent strongman training (gym work only, no implements available) workout the other day. Within three days I saw my workout re-posted, completely f*ckered up, with all kinds of "Does this workout look good?"

...They didn't, and I instantly jumped in and posted the workout as written. The thing is I can't understand why the changes were made, they make no sense and seem almost random.

I have a strong urge to neg people that I bother to help and who ignore it.

Andrew, you are dead on here. I think they really want to hear "looks good, brah, good luck," not "that sucks, you need to do squats, deads (or something else that they don't want to do)."

I think programs get changed for a few different reasons by newbs:
1) They don't want to do squats or deadlifts
2) They want to hit chest and/or arms more often
3) They wrongly think the program, as written, is either over- or under-training
4) They think they are smarter than the folks who have tested and proven a program to be effective, even if that person is a world-renowned coach who has forgotten more about lifting than they will ever know

In addition to possibly negging those who ask then ignore the advice, I really wanna neg the guys who confirm the stupid programs as okay. "Sure, man, three arm workouts for every leg workout looks good. Good luck." Then the newbs think they have just gotten good advice and go do that stupid chit.

[CookAndrewB]

...Then the newbs think they have just gotten good advice and go do that stupid chit.

They probably don't, or not longer than 2 weeks before they are back here asking for more help

[Bamma]

They probably don't, or not longer than 2 weeks before they are back here asking for more help

Good point, but then they do that even when they take the good advice. Heck, I am on a solid program and still at times considering switching to something else, just because...

[CookAndrewB]

Good point, but then they do that even when they take the good advice. Heck, I am on a solid program and still at times considering switching to something else, just because...

Madcow called this "Bodybuilder ADD"

...describes it perfectly.

[klir_2m]

Problem is, many noobs who log on to this forum won't bother listening to the truth. And the truth sometimes hurts. They won't bother reading this post or other good ones like it because they think they know better and can't be bothered to work hard.

The simple facts are these: You need to use basic lifts starting out of the gate. There is a time and place for leg extensions, pullovers, tricep pushdowns, concentration curls, laterals and the like, but the truth is that all of the big and strong guys, every single one of them, both past and present, got to be big and strong by focusing on the major lifts. If not benches, then inclines. If not squats (although most guys then as now did or do them) then front squats, lunges, and leg presses. If not deadlifts, then heavy good mornings (i.e. Bruce Randall)...and so on. Presses, shrugs, dips, rows...the list goes on, and all the old-timers and the pros and high amateurs now do them, or equally hard variations on them.

And these lifts are not glamorous. They are hard to do, take your energy out of you, make you hurt (in a good way) all over. But they are effective, and they work, and that's why they should be done.

Honestly it doesn't help that the average "professional trainer" is going to set someone starting out on a machine circuit. When I started at my gym, not knowing much about how/what to lift, he put me on a "program" that involved doing 10-15 or so machines (split betw 2 days) and zero barbell work. Same guy, who I think is the owner of the gym, has been training another guy one on one, I saw him spotting the guy on squats, loading on massive weight and only doing quarter squats in bad form... It's pretty lame that at the average gym you can hardly get any worthwhile help at all, which is why I consider myself lucky for finding this site.

It's amazing, of all the regulars at the gym, I'm one of two that does squats and dips, and the only one that does deadlifts, barbell rows, or clean and press.. And I didn't do any of those either until I posted my noob routine on these boards and got set right heh.

[ironwill2008]

In addition to possibly negging those who ask then ignore the advice, I really wanna neg the guys who confirm the stupid programs as okay. "Sure, man, three arm workouts for every leg workout looks good. Good luck." Then the newbs think they have just gotten good advice and go do that stupid chit.

Most of the "rate my routine" posters are 130 pound, 17 year-old kids. And if you look at the stats of the posters replying with the "looks good, brah" posts, they're the same, or maybe worse. There's something to be said for qualifying the advice you decide to take.



This post is also to bump the thread.

[brudman]

Bump. Already there are too many posts at the top with a high RQ (retard quotient). Noobs are always welcome and I always help. But this thread is the proverbial tough love. Stack it with n@tural's sticky, and you got yourself the path to righteousness.

[phozosado]

You think I should add some links to it?

Which ones, though? My personal gut says Rippetoes, which I think is great for beginners, but what other ones should I include?

Edit: I added a couple links, although I'm the first to admit I'm fairly know-nothing when it comes to hypertrophy programs. I usually stick to 5x5s and keep it simple. I did include the sticky here that has a host of links and guides, which with luck will set at least one person in the right direction...

I think a few youtube clips of good form on the deadlifts, squats, and BORs could be helpful.

A point I find myself making over and over again with newbies is that if they don't have the focus to even read the stickies, how can they expect to have any kind of success in a gym?

[Swamp Dog]

Back to the top.

[JasonDB]

Most of the "rate my routine" posters are 130 pound, 17 year-old kids. And if you look at the stats of the posters replying with the "looks good, brah" posts, they're the same, or maybe worse. There's something to be said for qualifying the advice you decide to take.



This post is also to bump the thread.

Quoted for truth. This is definatley stickie material imo.

[Metal_Lust]

Problem is, many noobs who log on to this forum won't bother listening to the truth. And the truth sometimes hurts. They won't bother reading this post or other good ones like it because they think they know better and can't be bothered to work hard.

The simple facts are these: You need to use basic lifts starting out of the gate. There is a time and place for leg extensions, pullovers, tricep pushdowns, concentration curls, laterals and the like, but the truth is that all of the big and strong guys, every single one of them, both past and present, got to be big and strong by focusing on the major lifts. If not benches, then inclines. If not squats (although most guys then as now did or do them) then front squats, lunges, and leg presses. If not deadlifts, then heavy good mornings (i.e. Bruce Randall)...and so on. Presses, shrugs, dips, rows...the list goes on, and all the old-timers and the pros and high amateurs now do them, or equally hard variations on them.

And these lifts are not glamorous. They are hard to do, take your energy out of you, make you hurt (in a good way) all over. But they are effective, and they work, and that's why they should be done.

Another good post, the site wouldn't let me rep you again haha

[GuyJin]

Andrew, you are dead on here. I think they really want to hear "looks good, brah, good luck," not "that sucks, you need to do squats, deads (or something else that they don't want to do)."

I think programs get changed for a few different reasons by newbs:
1) They don't want to do squats or deadlifts
2) They want to hit chest and/or arms more often
3) They wrongly think the program, as written, is either over- or under-training
4) They think they are smarter than the folks who have tested and proven a program to be effective, even if that person is a world-renowned coach who has forgotten more about lifting than they will ever know

In addition to possibly negging those who ask then ignore the advice, I really wanna neg the guys who confirm the stupid programs as okay. "Sure, man, three arm workouts for every leg workout looks good. Good luck." Then the newbs think they have just gotten good advice and go do that stupid chit.

----------------------------

^^^^^This, and I'd add that CookAndrew is also dead on with his ideas. Programmes which were written by coaches WHO HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE ALL THAT WERE WRITTEN TO BE FOLLOWED TO THE LETTER. It is not an "either/or" proposition; you should do it as it is written. See Bamma's #4 point. And, yes, I'd rather take the advice or at least seriously listen to someone who's been around and knows all the ins and outs of training. So let it be written, so let it be done. The ONLY time you should be subbing in something is if and only IF you have some kind of injury preventing you from doing the deads or squats, in which case perhaps you shouldn't be doing the original programme at all. But I digress.

klir, I hear what you're saying and perhaps you're right; I haven't been to a regular gym in a long time, but from my experience here (Japan) the trainers know next to nothing. However, you must also realize that many of the people who walk into a gym are unclear as to what their goals are, and many of them are not into the "harcorz" training, so perhaps, and I'm just guessing, the PT's choose the safest, general option. And also, maybe many PT's don't have a clue either here or in N. America; I'm not sure, and I'd hate to blanket statement this. I'd like to think that many PT's do take their jobs seriously and know what their clients want and help them to reach their goals, but the more I read...again, I digress.

As for this site, you'll get a lot of decent advice if you know whose name to look for; you'll also get a lot of bro-science and that just comes iwth the territory. If there's any blame to be attached, it should be on the guy who's given decent advice by guys like Defiant1, All Pro, CookAndrew, N@t1, fbcoach, and a few others---and then chooses to ignore it.

Finally, as for negging some newb who replies to what you write and then dismisses it, I wouldn't bother negging them. "Leave 'em to Heaven" is what my late father used to say, and perhaps he was right.

[Wildtim]

morning bump

[JasonDB]

Bumping this back up. I tend to agree with Cook in that I have more of a desire to neg those who go "looks good brah!" than the OP when some 140 lbs kid posts a routine full of cable flyes and concentration curls.

Sometimes I look at the pics and stats of the 3 or 4 guys going "looks good brah... that is almost exactally what I do!" and they all have 14" arms and 38" chests... at which point I often have the desire, which I do not follow through with, to tell them that those giving their approval probably do not know enough about bodybuilding or training for hypertrophy to give sound advice yet. What is even more amazing is when 1 or 2 good sized guys chime in ask where the squats, deadlifts and overhead presses are and the OP ignores them and continues listening to the other noobs.

[Hut*Hut]

Prologue: I remember years ago when I first started working out and posting here I went out and put together a program all on my own. I thought it through very thoroughly and was very proud of myself when I'd finished. I made a new thread about it and asked for people to critique it in the title. I expected for the most part people would approve of it and might offer tiny suggestions to improve on it.

What I got was people telling me it was awful and I needed to scrap it completely and pick up a pre-made program which was created by someone who was an expert in the weightlifting/strength training or bodybuilding field.

I was upset and annoyed at the time, however it was sound advice. They were right. My program sucked, I did not know what I was doing and if I'd followed it I wouldn't have made any significant long-term gains.

Ask yourself this: Do you know more than Mark Rippetoe, Bill Starr or anyone who has studied strength and hypertrophy training for years and has had countless more years of empirical evidence to refine their knowledge on how to make progress in the gym? (The answer is, of course, "no").

Then why would you use some program you've made over one of theirs?

Why your program is terrible:
1) You've probably designed your program with way too many exercises and way too much volume for a beginner.
- Your program should consist primarily of the following exercises: the squat, the bench press, the deadlift, heavy rows and plenty of core work.
- You do not need endless sets of isolation work right now. You need to focus on compound movements and work on getting a solid base/frame.
- Right now you need to focus on correct form. Master squatting, benching and deadlifting. It's not easy. Odds are you're doing a terrible job on at least two of those exercises. Get a trainer, preferably one who looks like they lift and who has a background in powerlifting, and have them coach you on these essential lifts.

2) You've probably designed your program with way too much emphasis on mirror muscles and not enough on others.
- A good program will have at least as much focus, if not considerably more, on one's back than on one's pecs. Often you see people making programs which have several different benching variations (incline, decline, dumbells, etc), dumbell flies, cable crosses, etc... and then when it's time for back day they do some lat pulldowns and maybe some other fairly useless exercise. This can lead to muscle imbalances which later down the road will mess you and your rotator cuff up. You don't want that. Back in the day when lifters spend tons of time on their back doing rows, pullups, face pulls, deadlifts and other exercises and had strong backs -- nobody had RC problems.
- You're probably neglecting your legs, but this isn't always the case with newbies making programs.

3) You've probably designed your program and left out tons of crucial information.
- What are your goals? Strength? Hypertrophy? General fitness? What is your program supposed to do?
- What is your level of fitness? While it's usually "beginner", often times people don't even bother to say. An advanced lifter will have a drastically different routine than a beginner. Often times beginners don't realize this and they try to emulate a program designed for someone who has been lifting for years. Small muscles, like yours, don't need nearly as much stimulation to shock them into growth. If you overdo it, you'll just burn yourself out and get nowhere.
- Sometimes you see truly awful programs which just toss out a number of exercises and don't bother to elaborate and then they expect someone to critique it. Other times you get a little more. I've yet to see someone incorporate rest times or tempo into their home-made programs, despite it being important stuff. The answer is because you probably don't understand it, which is precisely why you shouldn't be making your own program to begin with.

4) Lastly, we see ****ty programs like yours every day. Often multiple. Frankly, it's tiresome. Please, read the stickies and pick a program which will work from there. There is a saying that "Anything will work... for about 6 weeks", which is probably true. You might see minor progress with whatever terrible program you've made but in time you will stall out and you will not make much, if any, progress. Think long-term, drop your ego and realize there are people out there who dedicate their lives to this and they know more than you. Find a program which suits your level of fitness and your goals. Use it.

5) Here are some excellent programs which I hope you consider looking into:

- Rippetoes aka Starting Strength: I can personally attest to this program being superb. It's designed for any novice or beginner lifter but also for more experienced lifters who might not be used to a program consisting of heavy, compound movements. This will get you strong and if your diet is in order you will get bigger.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

- Bill Starr 5x5 aka Madcow 5x5: I love this one. It's for an intermediate lifter and the focus of this program is to get you strong as quickly as possible. And it works.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

- HST (Hypertrophy/Strength Training): I haven't personally lifted in this style but plenty of people swear by it. This should work well for someone looking for gains in both strength and hypertrophy (ie. getting both strong and bigger muscles).
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=280813
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=714401

- German Volume Training: I've ran this and even having lifted for years before I ran it I was sore as a dog after pretty much every workout. DOMS doesn't necessarily mean it's working, but this is a pretty rough ride. GVT is designed to primarily make you bigger (hypertrophy).
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis13.htm

- There are PLENTY of other programs. Here is a guide here, one of the stickies you SHOULD have already read...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=113707701

- You should also venture out into the other sections, the Nutrition and Exercise ones especially (not so much the misc, you're better off not going there). I can promise you that you're going to learn a lot and help your progress if you do.

Yes.

[scrappie345]

sticky.

a couple weeks ago i was exactly the guy youre talking about. fortunately for me, brudman was nice enough to show me the light and point me in the right direction.

brudman: youre getting reps one day when i can finally give them lol

[JUSA]

sticky.

a couple weeks ago i was exactly the guy youre talking about. fortunately for me, brudman was nice enough to show me the light and point me in the right direction.

brudman: youre getting reps one day when i can finally give them lol

Make 12 more posts and you'll have them.

[BenReilly]

Posting that " I play Rugby / run a lot / ride a bike / (take your pick), so I'm not going to train my legs" is the best way I know to get your post overlooked.

Same goes with stating that you "don't have time to eat."

If your thinking is along these lines, you'd do better to find a different "hobby;" bodybuilding isn't for you.

lol those always make me laugh

[EPMD]

This thread, especially the first post, earns its stars.

[brudman]

Bumpelstiltskin

[Arlecchino]

Stuck by request. For it to remain a sticky, as it does has some very useful info, it needs to remain positive/productive.

Thanks everyone, and well done OP.