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  1. #1
    Pass The Refridgerator kudostojen's Avatar
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    Post How to Carb up on the CKD.

    Ok, i'm new to this diet but i keep seeing the same question almost on a daily basis.

    So I'm going to put the information in this thread on how to carb up on the CKD.

    Information from Lyle's book.

    To shift the body out of ketosis and toward a more anabolic state, dieters will need to begin
    consuming carbohydrates approximately 5 hours prior to the final workout. At this time, a small
    amount of carbohydrates, perhaps 25 to 50 grams, can be consumed along with some protein and
    unsaturated fats, to begin the upregulation of liver enzymes. The type of carbohydrate needed
    has not been studied and individuals are encouraged to experiment with different types and
    amounts of foods.
    Approximately 2 hours before the final workout, a combination of glucose and fructose
    (with optional glutamine) should be consumed, to refill liver glycogen. Once again, specific
    amounts have not been determined but 25 to 50 grams total carbohydrate would seem a good
    place to start.

    Nutrient intake

    During the first 24 hours of carb-loading, carbohydrate intake should be 10 grams per
    kilogram of lean body mass or 4.5 grams of carbs per pound of lean body mass . This will
    represent 70% of the total calories consumed. The remaining calories are divided evenly between
    fat (15% of total calories) and protein (15% of total calories). Table 2 gives estimated amounts of
    carbohydrate, protein and fat for various amounts of lean body mass.
    During the second 24 hours of carb-loading, carbohydrates will make up 60% of the total calories,
    protein 25% and fat 15% as shown in table 3.

    Summary of guidelines for glycogen supercompensation on the CKD

    1. -5 hours prior to your final workout before the carb-up, consume 25-50 grams of carbohydrate
    with some protein to begin the shift out of ketosis. Small amounts of protein and fat may be
    added to this meal.
    2. -2 hours prior to the final workout, consume 25-50 grams of glucose and fructose (such as fruit)
    to refill liver glycogen.
    3. -The level of glycogen resynthesis depends on the duration of the carb-up and the amount of
    carbohydrates consumed. In 24 hours, glycogen levels of 100-110 mmol/kg can be achieved as
    long as 10 grams carb/kg lean body mass are consumed. During the second 24 hours of carbing,
    an intake of 5 grams/kg lean body mass is recommended.
    4.- During the first 24 hours, the macronutrient ratios should be 70% carbs, 15% protein and 15%
    fat. During the second 24 hours, the ratios are roughly 60% carbs, 25% protein and 15% fat.
    5. -As long as sufficient amounts of carbohydrate are consumed, the type and timing of intake is
    relatively less important. However, some data suggests the higher glycogen levels can be
    attained over 24 hours, if higher Glycemic Index (GI) carbs are consumed. If carbing is continued
    past 24 hours, lower GI foods should be consumed.
    Last edited by kudostojen; 07-08-2009 at 04:40 AM.
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  2. #2
    Pass The Refridgerator kudostojen's Avatar
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    How to Carb up on the CKD.

    More from Lyle's book.

    Summary

    Assuming full depletion, which requires a variable amount of training depending on the
    length of the carb-up, glycogen levels can be refilled to normal within 24 hours, assuming that
    carbohydrate consumption is sufficient. With longer or shorter carb-loading periods, muscle
    glycogen levels can reach higher or lower levels respectively.

    During the initial 24 hours of carb-loading, a carbohydrate intake of 8-10 grams of carbs
    per kilogram of lean body mass will refill muscle glycogen to normal levels. Although less well
    researched, it appears that a carbohydrate intake of roughly 5 grams/kg lean body mass is
    appropriate. While the type of carbohydrate ingested during the first 24 hours of carb-loading is
    less critical, it is recommended that lower GI carbs be consumed during the second 24 hours to
    avoid fat regain. The addition of other nutrients to the carb-load phase does not appear to affect
    glycogen resynthesis rates. However fat intake must be limited somewhat to avoid fat gain.
    It is currently unknown how the insertion of a carb-loading phase will affect the
    adaptations to ketosis. As well, no long term data exists on the metabolic effects which are seen.
    Therefore it can not be recommended that the CKD be followed indefinitely and a more ?balanced?
    diet should be undertaken as soon as one?s goals are achieved.

    A question which is asked is whether the carb-load is anabolic, stimulating muscle growth
    while dieting. As muscle growth requires an overall anabolic metabolism, the body must be
    shifted out of ketosis (which is catabolic) during the carb-load. This requires that liver
    metabolism be shifted away from ketone production, which necessitates both an increase in
    certain enzymes as well as a refilling of liver glycogen. Therefore the carb-load really begins
    about 5 hours prior to the final workout when a small amount of carbohydrates should be
    consumed to begin upregulating liver enzymes. Approximately 2 hours prior to the workout, a
    combination of glucose and fructose should be consumed to refill liver glycogen. Glutamine is an
    optional addition that may increase liver glycogen levels.

    There are a number of ways that the carb-load might affect muscle growth. The primary
    mechanism is by increasing insulin and amino acid availability. The second is by increasing
    cellular hydration levels. Both have the potential to increase protein synthesis while decreasing
    protein breakdown.

    Ultimately the question must be asked as to just how much new muscle can be
    synthesized during a carb-up of 24 to 48 hours. Even assuming zero muscle breakdown during
    the ketogenic week, the amount of new muscle synthesized is likely to be small. So while
    individuals may gain a small amount of muscle during a CKD, it should not be expected or
    counted on.
    Last edited by kudostojen; 07-08-2009 at 04:42 AM.
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  3. #3
    Registered User hardipsrai's Avatar
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    I had posted a question ealier, to which there were no responses. So, maybe you (or someone else) may shed some light. In regards to the carb load, since it will kick you out of ketosis (the liver will no longer produce ketones), assuming that the carb load lasts minimal 1 day, and assuming it takes up to 3 days to re-establish ketosis... that implies that during a given week, you are only in a state of ketosis for 7 - (carb-up day + 3 days to re-establish ketosis) = 3 day?!!!!!
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  4. #4
    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hardipsrai View Post
    I had posted a question ealier, to which there were no responses. So, maybe you (or someone else) may shed some light. In regards to the carb load, since it will kick you out of ketosis (the liver will no longer produce ketones), assuming that the carb load lasts minimal 1 day, and assuming it takes up to 3 days to re-establish ketosis... that implies that during a given week, you are only in a state of ketosis for 7 - (carb-up day + 3 days to re-establish ketosis) = 3 day?!!!!!
    1. Not everyone takes 3 days.
    2. You periodically need, at a minumum, a 5 hour refeed to restore leptin levels. It's important to do.
    3. Ketosis isn't the whole reason you are losing weight and fat on the diet. Caloric deficit and a proper hormonal profile is. Ketosis is like a sign that you are doing it right.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

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  5. #5
    Registered User hardipsrai's Avatar
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    I am well aware that people may take longer or be able to establish ketosis quicker than 3 days. I also aware of the hormonal advantages of consuming carbs. You are missing my point, I am not 'against' carbing up. I have used this diet on numerous occasions to get below 10%BF!

    My question is simply to understand the time-frame that typical CKD'ers are in ketosis.

    And yes, I am aware that it is a calorie deficit that will ultimately lead to fat loss - again, I have much experience in using this diet to lose weight, nonetheless, some of us who follow a ketogenic type diet are not primarily concerned with losing weight, but rather as a preferred dietary lifestyle.
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  6. #6
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  7. #7
    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Point taken. (I hope I didn't come across harshly above. On a PSMF ATM )

    In that light, yes you may be in ketosis only 3-4 days of a given week if you you do weekly carb-ups. I still contend that it's only a corollary feature a low carb lifestyle though.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

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  8. #8
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    Also was wondering exactly what is a "DEPLETION" work out. Is that like an entire full body workout that just totally destroys your body and energy?
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    Pass The Refridgerator kudostojen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by peteyyytran View Post
    Also was wondering exactly what is a "DEPLETION" work out. Is that like an entire full body workout that just totally destroys your body and energy?
    Yes, it's a full body workout to fully deplete the muscles of glycogen so they can be refilled during carbup. You'll notice that your muscles won't swell up during this workout.

    It shouldn't "destroy" your body but it should be hard to do. You won't be lifting, at least i don't, like you did earlier in the week.

    For me personally. I do legs on Monday and for my job i have to climb 6 flights of stairs many times a day. By Weds, like today, i get really tired by the 3rd floor, when on Monday i could do the all 6 flights with no problem. My legs muscles are depleted.
    Last edited by kudostojen; 07-08-2009 at 08:53 AM.
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    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Depletion workout = High rep, low rest, light to medium weight full body circuit training

    Pick a movement for each bodypart. Do 2-3 sets of 10-20 reps of each. It might take up to 4 to 6 full circuits to fully deplete glycogen.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

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    ...or something like this daily. Problem? ;)

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  11. #11
    Registered User hardipsrai's Avatar
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    just to clarify... liver glucogen needs to be almost (it is never completely) depleted in order for ketosis to occur... does the amount of muscle glycogen effect ketosis? in other words, is it SOLELY liver glucogen depletion that will enduce ketosis, in which case, ketosis should be established fairly quickly (12-16 hours fasting).
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    Give me an example of your depletion work outs please
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  13. #13
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    If you don't have a way of determining your bodyfat percentage (and therefore calculating lean body mass), could you just stick to the same amount of calories you were taking in during the week and just switch up the macros for the carbup?
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  14. #14
    Registered User hardipsrai's Avatar
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    During the carb-up, the body can super-compensate its glycogen stores by 150%, which is why 10g/lbm is often advocated, however, 5g/lbm has shown similar results. There has been little research into the advantages of 10g/lbm over 5g/lbm, and a 12-24hour carb-up as apposed to the 48 hour carb-up. If you really want to get techinical about this, read Lyle McDonalds book on the Ketogenic diet, where he breaks down the quantities, however, he also notes that, these measures are not necessary and often, going by how you feel, how intense your workouts are, general fitness etc, you can moderate your own levels. If you want to stick to your regular calorie intake which you adhere to during the week, then I advice skipping or only partially completing the depletion workout.
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    Pass The Refridgerator kudostojen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hardipsrai View Post
    During the carb-up, the body can super-compensate its glycogen stores by 150%, which is why 10g/lbm is often advocated, however, 5g/lbm has shown similar results. There has been little research into the advantages of 10g/lbm over 5g/lbm, and a 12-24hour carb-up as apposed to the 48 hour carb-up. If you really want to get techinical about this, read Lyle McDonalds book on the Ketogenic diet, where he breaks down the quantities, however, he also notes that, these measures are not necessary and often, going by how you feel, how intense your workouts are, general fitness etc, you can moderate your own levels. If you want to stick to your regular calorie intake which you adhere to during the week, then I advice skipping or only partially completing the depletion workout.
    I think that's one of the most important things to remember about this diet, it's up to you and your body on how you're going to do your carb ups.

    I would recommend doing it the way Lyle outlines in his book and go from there. Learn what you body wants and needs and adjust accordingly. It's a learning process and patients is required.
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    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Actually I would recommend everyone read "The Rapid Fatloss Handbook" and try to apply some of Kyle's refeed concepts from there into the diet.

    Dynamic use of free meals, 5 hour refeeds, and full diet breaks can really help.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

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    Originally Posted by Atavis View Post
    Actually I would recommend everyone read "The Rapid Fatloss Handbook" and try to apply some of Kyle's refeed concepts from there into the diet.

    Dynamic use of free meals, 5 hour refeeds, and full diet breaks can really help.
    That might be a good idea but i would recommend following one diet at a time. If you're just starting follow one set of rules until you're comfortable and really an expert at it, or you'll just run around in circles. IMO
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    Originally Posted by kudostojen View Post
    That might be a good idea but i would recommend following one diet at a time. If you're just starting follow one set of rules until you're comfortable and really an expert at it, or you'll just run around in circles. IMO
    That's a very good point.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

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    Bump, people NEED to read this!
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    Do u think carbing up every 2 weeks is as beneficial as every weekend?
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    Originally Posted by Livingitup44 View Post
    Do u think carbing up every 2 weeks is as beneficial as every weekend?
    Nope, but you might lose more weight.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

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  22. #22
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    Originally Posted by Livingitup44 View Post
    Do u think carbing up every 2 weeks is as beneficial as every weekend?
    People keep asking this type of question. Should i carb up? How long should i carb up for?

    It's something you need to figure out for yourself.

    I believe the carbups are important and should be done at a min of every 10 days for 24hrs or more.

    If you don't want to do the carb ups i would suggest doing the TKD diet.
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    Still seeing a lot of questions about carbing up.

    Please read this. If you have more questions after you've read this post, feel free to ask.
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    Can you do a shorter Carb up.. like say 6 hours? of HIGH sugar low fat carbs??
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    Im new to CKD myself but Im an old pro at atkins diet and its shortcomings...in my mind the CKD minus the carb up is essentially an atkins diet. A lot of people swear by atkins for weight loss but in the long term it will eat your muscle mass and give you less than stellar workouts(my experience).

    There is also a psychological component, eating nothing but low GI greens, bacon, eggs, meat and cheese gets old pretty fast. Im just about done with my first carb up and i have a fresh view of the upcoming week. Ill try not to weigh till friday so the bloat doesnt discourage me. Im am following the suggestions and doing the 36 hour carb uo this weekend and Ill see where I sit next friday... Hopefully the pain I am suffering due to my freshly introduced deadlifts wont mess up my workout tomorrow.
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    Originally Posted by jeff232 View Post
    Im new to CKD myself but Im an old pro at atkins diet and its shortcomings...in my mind the CKD minus the carb up is essentially an atkins diet. A lot of people swear by atkins for weight loss but in the long term it will eat your muscle mass and give you less than stellar workouts(my experience).

    There is also a psychological component, eating nothing but low GI greens, bacon, eggs, meat and cheese gets old pretty fast. Im just about done with my first carb up and i have a fresh view of the upcoming week. Ill try not to weigh till friday so the bloat doesnt discourage me. Im am following the suggestions and doing the 36 hour carb uo this weekend and Ill see where I sit next friday... Hopefully the pain I am suffering due to my freshly introduced deadlifts wont mess up my workout tomorrow.
    36 hour carb-up is pretty extreme unless you are a serious bodybuilder with serious muscle mass.
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    Originally Posted by sheenamarie View Post
    Can you do a shorter Carb up.. like say 6 hours? of HIGH sugar low fat carbs??
    Of course. 5 hour carb-ups is often all many people need and especially for women. You can replenish your muscle glycogen stores all within 5 hours.
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    Originally Posted by queloque View Post
    36 hour carb-up is pretty extreme unless you are a serious bodybuilder with serious muscle mass.
    I suppose Ill find out if it was too much next friday, at worst I wont lose as much weight. I may have overeaten a little if 36 hours was too much but to be honest; I dont think the impact will be all that great. I took me less than 24 hours to get in ketosis 2 weeks ago.

    Besides, if im going to do the CKD I feel as if i should start out following the plan and see where it gets me. I did spend a bit of thought on my first carb up day but decided in the end not to modify the plan before I even started it.
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    Originally Posted by jeff232 View Post
    I suppose Ill find out if it was too much next friday, at worst I wont lose as much weight. I may have overeaten a little if 36 hours was too much but to be honest; I dont think the impact will be all that great. I took me less than 24 hours to get in ketosis 2 weeks ago.

    Besides, if im going to do the CKD I feel as if i should start out following the plan and see where it gets me. I did spend a bit of thought on my first carb up day but decided in the end not to modify the plan before I even started it.
    According to Lyles McDonald, "Assuming full depletion, which requires a variable amount of training depending on the length of the carb-up, glycogen levels can be refilled to normal within 24 hours, assuming that carbohydrate consumption is sufficient. With longer or shorter carb-loading periods, muscle glycogen levels can reach higher or lower levels respectively.": The Ketogenic Diet

    And what he means by sufficient levels is carb-ups that are generally 4,000 to 5000 calories or about double your maintenance.

    And for many people even 5 hour carb-ups is enough. Anything beyond 24 hours for most you run the risk of overcompensating in carb intake that could store as fat.
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    Originally Posted by queloque View Post
    According to Lyles McDonald, "Assuming full depletion, which requires a variable amount of training depending on the length of the carb-up, glycogen levels can be refilled to normal within 24 hours, assuming that carbohydrate consumption is sufficient. With longer or shorter carb-loading periods, muscle glycogen levels can reach higher or lower levels respectively.": The Ketogenic Diet

    And what he means by sufficient levels is carb-ups that are generally 4,000 to 5000 calories or about double your maintenance.

    And for many people even 5 hour carb-ups is enough. Anything beyond 24 hours for most you run the risk of overcompensating in carb intake that could store as fat.

    thanks for the quote from Lyle, I mashed the plan together from posts i read here in these forums, I have been following the broscience version evidently. Ill keep it at 24 hours next week
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