AI Glycobol, and regards to BMOV

wakingmalice · 07-01-2009, 05:41 PM

Glycobol, the new insulin "mimicker" in the supplement world, looks like a solid product at first glance. Contains Na-r-Ala which i personally tout along with Phellodendron Extract which i also find affective. Cinnamon bark could be decent as an overall health product, but i'm not sure honestly what noticeable effects it would have for glucose control. as a stand alone, it was useless in most studies with patients that were not type 2 diabetics. but that is not what i'm wanting to discuss.

Bis(Maltolato)Oxovanadium, or BMOV for short, is a form of an organovanadium compound that is supposed to increase bio availability of vanadium which is most likely the final active agent of these compounds. All in all, that makes perfect sense for vanadium to be the active compound after ingestion. What doesnt make sense is that the mechanism by which vanadium works, has never, in any form, ever, worked for non diabetic patients. To date, that i can find, BMOV has also only been studied on animals. Diabetic rats to be clearer. These studies did expose extraordinary results for the diabetic rats. but not so much for the non diabetic rats. BMOV or any form of vanadium alone can not increase muscle size or density. Because vanadium can act like insulin, which is an extremely anabolic hormone, since i can remember i have seen people tout vanadium as an amazing mineral for weight lifters. This is simply and moreover PROVEN to be not true in several studies.

Now to be fair, studies done with vanadium on non diabetic patients were indeed not the BMOV form (because there havent been studies completely completed on BMOV on humans, correct me if i'm wrong). But they were also at much much higher doses than recommended BMOV. mainly because more of BMOV will be absorbed. This should be an obvious circumstance.

Anybody taking vanadium at high doses and non diabetic, might also experience health problems. such as kidney and liver complications. These problems might be corrected by the use of BMOV because the possibly dangerous 100mg doses or higher of vanadium sulfate over long term would be extinguisher by lower, safer doses of BMOV (you know how us weight lifters get out of control with out dosages...) . Of course, this only applies to diabetics. So to conclude on BMOV vs. vanadium sulfate, obviously BMOV is the supperior form for humans for at least long term treatment of diabetes. Short term treatment may still prefer pure higher doses of vanadium sulfate.

Now away from all the bull s**** you probably dont care about. what i wanna know is, why do companies keep using vanadium when it has been proven useless in non diabetic patients? is it because they "feel" it working? so it must work? vanadium does indeed lower fasting blood sugar in diabetics. but it has not shown to do so in non-diabetics. Dont necessarily be fooled as this newer BMOV version might seem promising. (there are not many studies, so companies can call it promising). because as i reiterate, mechanisms of insulin sensitization by BMOV deemed vanadium as the active component both in vivo and in vitro. This is same ole' vanadium that didnt work since 1985 when this stuff got hot on market. and speaking of the 80's, i see the source AI has used for the trace mineral was from 1980. almost 30 years ago? interesting.

Understand, this is not an attack at AI, as the product Glycobol contains other ingredients that are in fact promising. But, they are the most recent company to come out with a vanadium product, and i would like some scientific discussion and thoughts on why companies keep coming back to vanadium and putting it out there as a muscle building, insulin mimicking or potentiating product.

I myself was very interested in BMOV, but after further research, have declared it null as a glucose controlling product, insulin mimicker, insulin potentiator, or a product that makes you "dry and veiny."

wakingmalice · 07-01-2009, 06:45 PM

just a quick bump...would like some replies. could be an interesting discussion.

wakingmalice · 07-01-2009, 10:04 PM

52 views and no replies. sorry this was not a "god it works so well!" thread. still waiting for an AI or any company rep that uses this product to respond?

Blindead · 07-01-2009, 10:08 PM

Bump. this was something that was running through my head for a while too. I never got around to doing specific research into BMOV but I'm usually always against vanadyl sulfate.

asigler · 07-01-2009, 10:10 PM

hmmmmm this is good timing,i am looking at trying one of these insulin mimic supps,and am trying to figure out if they are legit or just scams...id like to see some responses to this by people who have experience with them..

wakingmalice · 07-01-2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asigler

hmmmmm this is good timing,i am looking at trying one of these insulin mimic supps,and am trying to figure out if they are legit or just scams...id like to see some responses to this by people who have experience with them..

I have plenty of experience with them, including vanadium/vanadyl. Hence why i posted the thread. Glad to finally see some interest!

wengl · 07-01-2009, 10:22 PM

I have no direct answer to your question, but it was a very interesting read so thank you for that. At the end of the day, the supplement industry relies on marketing and placebo effect as much as they do actual results. Just look at all the pre-workout supplements that pair nitric oxide with caffeine. A bit counter intuitive for anyone with even a cursory knowledge of physiology.

I'm not aiming any of this to Glycobol, since I'm only familiar with insulin regulation in normal and pathological settings, not in the context of optimizing athletic performance. Any more insight on this topic would be appreciated as well!!

asigler · 07-01-2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakingmalice

I have plenty of experience with them, including vanadium/vanadyl. Hence why i posted the thread. Glad to finally see some interest!

so what would your advice be as to which to use,as far as making nutrients more efficient...there are a few...i see that usp has two products that seem to be the same...anaboic pump and pslin..know anything about these?

wakingmalice · 07-01-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asigler

so what would your advice be as to which to use,as far as making nutrients more efficient...there are a few...i see that usp has two products that seem to be the same...anaboic pump and pslin..know anything about these?

Na-r-Ala seems to have the most research to back it up. that being said, i have used p-slin and anabolic pump and have looked into their ingredients as well. I do like them and use them. But i would put emphasis on looking into Na-r-Ala for sure.

wakingmalice · 07-01-2009, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wengl

I have no direct answer to your question, but it was a very interesting read so thank you for that. At the end of the day, the supplement industry relies on marketing and placebo effect as much as they do actual results. Just look at all the pre-workout supplements that pair nitric oxide with caffeine. A bit counter intuitive for anyone with even a cursory knowledge of physiology.

I'm not aiming any of this to Glycobol, since I'm only familiar with insulin regulation in normal and pathological settings, not in the context of optimizing athletic performance. Any more insight on this topic would be appreciated as well!!

anytime, and I agree totally. But i've always looked at AI differently than that, and wouldnt expect that from them...yet they still aren't here, or any other companies for that matter, to back up BMOV. Not saying glycobol is not effective. because people love it...but the hefty dose of Na-r-ala along with the Phellodendron might be why people are loving it. What other insight would you like? or are you just saying from other people

eldawg · 07-01-2009, 10:30 PM

Here is a previous discussion on Vanadium from the Supp Science section - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5728391

wakingmalice · 07-01-2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eldawg

Here is a previous discussion on Vanadium from the Supp Science section - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5728391

yes, on vanadyl sulfate, which i already addressed needs to be used at higher dosages, which causes the side effects no hype mentions. BMOV would not need that high of dosages and is notably safer, but just as ineffective.

wengl · 07-01-2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakingmalice

What other insight would you like? or are you just saying from other people

Just meant if anyone else or a rep had a response.

wakingmalice · 07-01-2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wengl

Just meant if anyone else or a rep had a response.

you and me both man lol looks like we are still waiting.

TNote · 07-02-2009, 12:47 AM

In for a discussion... hopefully. I've seen your interest in the insulin mimickers and the like and have been looking at them more myself. I know you thought about putting a log together with some of them. I'd definitely be interested in that.

wicked_jester · 07-02-2009, 02:29 AM

little bit scary good thing change my order on time...
will have to wait for AI reps or some good feedback on this before i try glycobol..

wakingmalice · 07-02-2009, 07:24 AM

bump for a new day. I have work for a few hours then will be back, hope to see a good discussion started by then.

wakingmalice · 07-02-2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNote

In for a discussion... hopefully. I've seen your interest in the insulin mimickers and the like and have been looking at them more myself. I know you thought about putting a log together with some of them. I'd definitely be interested in that.

ya the log is still iffy, i can kinda do it whenever since i run these all the time. but i need to get a glucometer first.

UNCnate · 07-02-2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNote

In for a discussion... hopefully. I've seen your interest in the insulin mimickers and the like and have been looking at them more myself. I know you thought about putting a log together with some of them. I'd definitely be interested in that.

I have used a glucometer with several of these insulin potentiators/mimetics/whatever you would like to call them, and found several to be effective.

I will say that the ones I have used have been multiple insulin mimetics at once, because I dont have these bulk powders readily available. So I cant say that X is better than Y, only that a combination of some of them work.

TNote · 07-02-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakingmalice

ya the log is still iffy, i can kinda do it whenever since i run these all the time. but i need to get a glucometer first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCnate

I have used a glucometer with several of these insulin potentiators/mimetics/whatever you would like to call them, and found several to be effective.

I will say that the ones I have used have been multiple insulin mimetics at once, because I dont have these bulk powders readily available. So I cant say that X is better than Y, only that a combination of some of them work.

I have access to a glucometer (mother's a diabetic). I could possibly put something together if anyone would be interested.

TNote · 07-02-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCnate

I have used a glucometer with several of these insulin potentiators/mimetics/whatever you would like to call them, and found several to be effective.

Also, what combinations did you find to be most effective?

KmuL · 07-02-2009, 11:15 AM

what is the question?

I will do my best to get you the right answer

I know VaughnTrue used meters and had some great results.

UNCnate · 07-02-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNote

Also, what combinations did you find to be most effective?

For me, Ive found Na-RALA and Corosolic Acid to be effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KmuL

what is the question?

I will do my best to get you the right answer

I know VaughnTrue used meters and had some great results.

I think the main thing is he is looking for support that BMOV is effective in non-diabetic patients.

wakingmalice · 07-02-2009, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNote

I have access to a glucometer (mother's a diabetic). I could possibly put something together if anyone would be interested.

ya man, go for it. something along the lines of 2 weeks with a certain combo then changing every 2 weeks, keeping exact numbers, and using bulk powders to keep ingredients as a whole separate. with the same carb loads every time. same GI, same grams.

wakingmalice · 07-02-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KmuL

what is the question?

I will do my best to get you the right answer

I know VaughnTrue used meters and had some great results.

the question was mentioned several times in the op. Why did you include a proven useless and at high doses harmful item such as vanadium in your product?

wakingmalice · 07-02-2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCnate

For me, Ive found Na-RALA and Corosolic Acid to be effective.

I think the main thing is he is looking for support that BMOV is effective in non-diabetic patients.

i like those combinations as well. more on the Na-r-ala partial, and less on the corosolic acid. might be synergy between the two though that makes corosolic more useful?

wakingmalice · 07-02-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCnate

I have used a glucometer with several of these insulin potentiators/mimetics/whatever you would like to call them, and found several to be effective.

I will say that the ones I have used have been multiple insulin mimetics at once, because I dont have these bulk powders readily available. So I cant say that X is better than Y, only that a combination of some of them work.

the trick is to make sure you run a trial with the meter without any potentiators of any kind (even no multi vitamin as they include ala usually). then check your numbers, then add in the ingredients separately for a period of time and check the numbers for differences.

UNCnate · 07-02-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakingmalice

i like those combinations as well. more on the Na-r-ala partial, and less on the corosolic acid. might be synergy between the two though that makes corosolic more useful?

Ive always found corosolic acid to be useful, even without the Na-RALA.

wakingmalice · 07-02-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCnate

Ive always found corosolic acid to be useful, even without the Na-RALA.

hmm i didnt find the same. what doses and carb amounts and types were you running?

UNCnate · 07-02-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakingmalice

hmm i didnt find the same. what doses and carb amounts and types were you running?

The one time I tested the Na-RALA + Corosolic Acid, the doses I used were 100 mg Na-RALA, 16 mg Corosolic Acid.

I took a glucose reading at ingestion of the combo, waited 30 minutes, took another reading, had a drop of ~ 30, ate 50 grams of carbs (primarily complex), waited about 30-45 minutes and tested again and my glucose reading was about what it was at the start.

Not great methods, but it was a spur of the moment thing. Just wanted to see what happened.