Question for atheists

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

If you believe the universe is eternal isn't that just as hard to believe as an eternal Creator? I mean the idea of something being infinite is not natural. It is a supernatural thing. To say that the universe had no beginning is outside scientific logic. So why is it so hard to believe that there could have been a creator who was also eternal or infinite?

[Inev]

If you believe the universe is eternal isn't that just as hard to believe as an eternal Creator? I mean the idea of something being infinite is not natural. It is a supernatural thing. To say that the universe had no beginning is outside scientific logic. So why is it so hard to believe that there could have been a creator who was also eternal or infinite?

if you want to talk about a creator, that is fine. I think most atheist will gladly admit that its "possible" that there is what one might label a creator who created the universe.

Now if you want to talk about a biblical creator? lols, that is why atheist are atheist and theist are theist.

[Mike-anon]

If you believe the universe is eternal isn't that just as hard to believe as an eternal Creator? I mean the idea of something being infinite is not natural. It is a supernatural thing. To say that the universe had no beginning is outside scientific logic. So why is it so hard to believe that there could have been a creator who was also eternal or infinite?

Addressing you in points:

The universe is not eternal? It's just expanding.

How exactly is "infinite" supernatural? It's just a term for something. It's as "supernatural" as what zero represents.

The universe had a beginning. As far as my limited brain is concerned, the current most likely hypothesis is the Big Bang.

I find it hard to believe in a creator because there is zero empirical evidence for one, whereas, on the contrary, there is a lot of evidence supporting the expanding universe, and the big bang.

Just because my mind is too weak to comprehend how large the universe is, or the physics behind the Big Bang, etc. doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A creator on the other hand has no evidence.

[LordDarwin]

Jumping to the idea of a supreme being who created the Universe is an illogical one and requires a giant leap of faith, considering there is no evidence to support it. Whereas the Big Bang theory, while being in early stages is much more plausible.

Why believe the idea of a God? It is just that: 'An idea,' supported by no evidence and therefore not a real theory.

[Arbex]

If you believe the universe is eternal isn't that just as hard to believe as an eternal Creator?

No.

Atoms existing forever =/= some being who's existed forever.

I mean the idea of something being infinite is not natural.

That's because your evolved brain thinks so.

It is a supernatural thing.

No, it isn't.

To say that the universe had no beginning is outside scientific logic.

To say it is is putting yourself in a loophole. Again, your brain did not evolve to understand eternity as well as some cosmological concepts--it only evolved to understand the environment it lives in.

So why is it so hard to believe that there could have been a creator who was also eternal or infinite?

Because having an eternal being is completely illogical when you can just say the universe has always existed.

Also, it is 10x harder to believe that some intelligence was just always there.

And if you say that, it only raises more questions than it eliminates. Where did it come from? What was it doing before it created the universe? What is it made out of? Etc.

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

Addressing you in points:

The universe is not eternal? It's just expanding.

How exactly is "infinite" supernatural? It's just a term for something. It's as "supernatural" as what zero represents.

The universe had a beginning. As far as my limited brain is concerned, the current most likely hypothesis is the Big Bang.

I find it hard to believe in a creator because there is zero empirical evidence for one, whereas, on the contrary, there is a lot of evidence supporting the expanding universe, and the big bang.

Just because my mind is too weak to comprehend how large the universe is, or the physics behind the Big Bang, etc. doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A creator on the other hand has no evidence.

But what exactly is the universe expanding to? Nothingness? I mean what is at the edge of the universe if its nothing? I guess this type of thinking will just end to more confusion.

[user5145]

If you believe the universe is eternal isn't that just as hard to believe as an eternal Creator? I mean the idea of something being infinite is not natural. It is a supernatural thing. To say that the universe had no beginning is outside scientific logic. So why is it so hard to believe that there could have been a creator who was also eternal or infinite?

I don't believe anything about the origin of the universe. I accept that we know what happened back to the planck time after the Big Bang. Before that, I do not have any beliefs about what happened, I abstain judgment until evidence indicates otherwise.

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

No.

Atoms existing forever =/= some being who's existed forever.



That's because your evolved brain thinks so.



No, it isn't.



To say it is is putting yourself in a loophole. Again, your brain did not evolve to understand eternity as well as some cosmological concepts--it only evolved to understand the environment it lives in.



Because having an eternal being is completely illogical when you can just say the universe has always existed.

Also, it is 10x harder to believe that some intelligence was just always there.

And if you say that, it only raises more questions than it eliminates. Where did it come from? What was it doing before it created the universe? What is it made out of? Etc.

It is completely illogical based on what our brain understands our environment to be, in your words. So wouldn't the idea of God be outside our physical environment? So likewise to an infinite universe which we can not comprehend wouldn't an intelligent creator be just as equal to be true if our brain only understands what our physical environment is? Of course an intelligent designer raises more questions but so does the theory of an infinite universe, doesn't it?

[user5145]

It is completely illogical based on what our brain understands our environment to be, in your words. So wouldn't the idea of God be outside our physical environment? So likewise to an infinite universe which we can not comprehend wouldn't an intelligent creator be just as equal to be true if our brain only understands what our physical environment is? Of course an intelligent designer raises more questions but so does the theory of an infinite universe, doesn't it?

No it is not completely illogical. It is difficult to conceptualize, just as general relativity and quantum mechanics are. Doesn't make it wrong.

[Arbex]

It is completely illogical based on what our brain understands our environment to be, in your words. So wouldn't the idea of God be outside our physical environment? So likewise to an infinite universe which we can not comprehend wouldn't an intelligent creator be just as equal to be true if our brain only understands what our physical environment is? Of course an intelligent designer raises more questions but so does the theory of an infinite universe, doesn't it?

The idea of God is a product of human evolution.

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

No it is not completely illogical. It is difficult to conceptualize, just as general relativity and quantum mechanics are. Doesn't make it wrong.

The same can go for an infinite creator. It is difficult to conceptualize doesn't make it wrong. And if our brain adapts to what we have seen in this environment it would be hard to comprehend an infinite creator but as equally hard to comprehend an infinite universe.

[LordDarwin]

It comes down to probability.

The probability of there being a Omnipotent being is lower than that of the current Big Bang theory. There is no evidence to support that 'theory' it is only guess work and delusion on the part or people who believe it.

Logic > Faith

[Beeewbs]

If you believe the universe is eternal isn't that just as hard to believe as an eternal Creator? I mean the idea of something being infinite is not natural. It is a supernatural thing. To say that the universe had no beginning is outside scientific logic.

You have no proof that infinite energy is supernatural.

So why is it so hard to believe that there could have been a creator who was also eternal or infinite?

When did we all sign a statement that said it WAS hard to believe? Nice strawman. I admit it's possible that an infite being exists. Do you admit it's possible for the energy of the universe to infinitely exist?

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

The idea of God is a product of human evolution.

And the idea of an infinite universe is not? I mean if it is what scientists believe to be true isn't it just as real as what Christians believe to be true (an infinite creator)? I'm not here to start an argument, I just have my questions for you.

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

You have no proof that infinite energy is supernatural.




When did we all sign a statement that said it WAS hard to believe? Nice strawman. I admit it's possible that an infite being exists. Do you admit it's possible for the energy of the universe to infinitely exist?

That may be just you but a majority of the atheists I see on this site say they know for a fact that an infinite being can not exist. It CAN be true so why ridicule Christians who believe in it? Just like atheists believe in an infinite universe.

[user5145]

The same can go for an infinite creator. It is difficult to conceptualize doesn't make it wrong. And if our brain adapts to what we have seen in this environment it would be hard to comprehend an infinite creator but as equally hard to comprehend an infinite universe.

Except an infinite universe would likely have some similarities with ours, whether in its physical laws, content, etc. We already have seen universes before, ours, so the only reason it is difficult to comprehend is because it is infinite. The fact that it is a universe does not ring as too difficult to conceptualize. A God, on the other hand, is completely different than anything we have ever observed. Not only would he transcend time, but he would be ommniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent, not to mention the fact that he would exist only in the 'spiritual realm' but could simultaneously communicate with men in the physical realm whilst evading every possible attempt at objective detection. He would not consist of matter. If he is anthromorphic as most religions claim, why did he create us? Why does he need beings to worship him?


One of the reasons I don't believe in a God is the same reason I don't take seriously the reports that aliens such as the Grays exist: They are too anthromorphic, which is exactly what you would expect for some fabrication of the human mind. If anything of the sort could exist, they would likely be completely different than anything we could ever imagine, and would certainly not want to meddle in the petty affairs of Homo sapiens

[JinxKebab]

I didn't read **** in this thread but...

Evidence for a Universe...Check

Evidence for a creator...Nope

Why should I believe in the creator?

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

Except an infinite universe would likely have some similarities with ours, whether in its physical laws, content, etc. We already have seen universes before, ours, so the only reason it is difficult to comprehend is because it is infinite. The fact that it is a universe does not ring as too difficult to conceptualize. A God, on the other hand, is completely different than anything we have ever observed. Not only would he transcend time, but he would be ommniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent, not to mention the fact that he would exist only in the 'spiritual realm' but could simultaneously communicate with men in the physical realm whilst evading every possible attempt at objective detection. He would not consist of matter. If he is anthromorphic as most religions claim, why did he create us? Why does he need beings to worship him?


One of the reasons I don't believe in a God is the same reason I don't take seriously the reports that aliens such as the Grays exist: They are too anthromorphic, which is exactly what you would expect for some fabrication of the human mind. If anything of the sort could exist, they would likely be completely different than anything we could ever imagine, and would certainly not want to meddle in the petty affairs of Homo sapiens

Yes for atheists their proof is in what they have seen and observed in this universe. For Christians they have seen and observed things in their life to believe in a God. I can not say this about all Christians but the reason I believe in it is because God is real in my life. He has answered my prayers and performed many miracles. I guess a lot of people can not see it now because they are so hard struck with technology these days. But that is a different topic. Anyway back on topic, why would it be hard for Christians to believe in something that claims to be supernatural? Supernatural by definition is something existing outside of the natural world. You may not have experienced it but they have. Why do so many atheists ridicule them? Its just like atheists believing in an infinite universe that they have never seen.

And one more thing, many of you say that Christians create an omniscient God so it can abide with their beliefs. Isn't the same being done with atheists and their belief in an infinite universe?

[basement iron]

But what exactly is the universe expanding to? Nothingness? I mean what is at the edge of the universe if its nothing? I guess this type of thinking will just end to more confusion.

A community college Astronomy 101 class will help with this type of ignorance.

[user5145]

Yes for atheists their proof is in what they have seen and observed in this universe. For Christians they have seen and observed things in their life to believe in a God. I can not say this about all Christians but the reason I believe in it is because God is real in my life. He has answered my prayers and performed many miracles. I guess a lot of people can not see it now because they are so hard struck with technology these days. But that is a different topic. Anyway back on topic, why would it be hard for Christians to believe in something that claims to be supernatural? Supernatural by definition is something existing outside of the natural world. You may not have experienced it but they have. Why do so many atheists ridicule them? Its just like atheists believing in an infinite universe that they have never seen.

And one more thing, many of you say that Christians create an omniscient God so it can abide with their beliefs. Isn't the same being done with atheists and their belief in an infinite universe?

If God answers prayers and causes miracles then he interacts with our physical world in some way. If he interacts with our physical world in some way, then it should be possible to objectively detect this interaction.

There is a big difference between an infinite universe and a God with all of the characteristics I listed. If there is no evidence for an infinite universe and someone posits that they believe in it, they are basing their belief on faith. I do not believe anything about the beginning/true nature of the universe. I know that there has to be some objective truth to the universe as perceived by man. I do not assert any beliefs about this though, as they would have no basis. I would rather to hold my judgment until evidence arises than to maintain a false belief out of wishful thinking.

[LordDarwin]

Prayer has no effect on anything. You're deluding yourself.

A scientific study has proven this.

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

A community college Astronomy 101 class will help with this type of ignorance.

Explain? All I said was if a universe was expanding, what exactly would it be expanding to? If the universe is everything how can it expand towards something that has no space or time?

[pFuzzz]

The universe is infinite, but not eternal. The law of conservation of mass and energy states that the total matter and energy in the universe stays constant. The universe is, however, expanding, and expanding at an exponentially increasing rate. All evidence points to the idea that the universe will eventually expand to the point where existing energy is stretched across so vast a space as to be practically non-existent, at which point, time itself stops.

The universe also had a definite beginning.

whole argument based on a false premise/thread.

The difference between atheists and theists (and which one I am doesn't matter) is this:
choosing to believe in something because there is empirical evidence it exists, versus choosing to believe in something because there's no empirical evidence it doesn't.

[Arbex]

The universe is infinite, but not eternal. The law of conservation of mass and energy states that the total matter and energy in the universe stays constant. The universe is, however, expanding, and expanding at an exponentially increasing rate. All evidence points to the idea that the universe will eventually expand to the point where existing energy is stretched across so vast a space as to be practically non-existent, at which point, time itself stops.

The universe also had a definite beginning.

whole argument based on a false premise/thread.

The difference between atheists and theists (and which one I am doesn't matter) is this:
choosing to believe in something because there is empirical evidence it exists, versus choosing to believe in something because there's no empirical evidence it doesn't.

This man deserves reps.

[K_F]

Yes for atheists their proof is in what they have seen and observed in this universe. For Christians they have seen and observed things in their life to believe in a God. I can not say this about all Christians but the reason I believe in it is because God is real in my life. He has answered my prayers and performed many miracles. I guess a lot of people can not see it now because they are so hard struck with technology these days. But that is a different topic. Anyway back on topic, why would it be hard for Christians to believe in something that claims to be supernatural? Supernatural by definition is something existing outside of the natural world. You may not have experienced it but they have. Why do so many atheists ridicule them? Its just like atheists believing in an infinite universe that they have never seen.

And one more thing, many of you say that Christians create an omniscient God so it can abide with their beliefs. Isn't the same being done with atheists and their belief in an infinite universe?

What miracles and prayers has your god answered? Scientific data provides us with some empirical proof that the universe is infinite. We can observe the cosmos and come to those conclusions. Do you not see the difference between believing in an infinite universe and believing in the supernatural? I can buy an astronomy book, or take an astronomy class, and have astronomy concepts explained to me (big bang, infinite universe), not only explained but shown what evidence was used to come to those conclusions. With religion you have to go on it on blind faith.

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

If God answers prayers and causes miracles then he interacts with our physical world in some way. If he interacts with our physical world in some way, then it should be possible to objectively detect this interaction.

There is a big difference between an infinite universe and a God with all of the characteristics I listed. If there is no evidence for an infinite universe and someone posits that they believe in it, they are basing their belief on faith. I do not believe anything about the beginning/true nature of the universe. I know that there has to be some objective truth to the universe as perceived by man. I do not assert any beliefs about this though, as they would have no basis. I would rather to hold my judgment until evidence arises than to maintain a false belief out of wishful thinking.

There are a variety of things you can pray for. For example if I prayed for a person to become a believer and it happens how can that be detected other than the person who believed saying he had a divine experience? (this has occurred in my life btw)

Your second para: So then you agree that you don't have the answers for everything? Then why do I see many atheists on this site ridiculing those who say they do have answers? Why do a lot of people continue to demean those who believe based on their own experiences if the person demeaning never experienced it or tried to? Most Christians that tell others to pray and seek the Word for themselves are doing it out of nothing but LOVE for that person. All I want to hear more of is "Ok you believe it based on experiences you had but theres no reason for me to try to ridicule you because I never experienced it myself." I see a lot more angry responses along the lines of "GTFO you stupid believer I can not believe you can say that! It is wrong lawlz." Anyways im off to bed. Later

[catmando]

This thread needs to be in the sticky...

[user5145]

There are a variety of things you can pray for. For example if I prayed for a person to become a believer and it happens how can that be detected other than the person who believed saying he had a divine experience? (this has occurred in my life btw)

Your second para: So then you agree that you don't have the answers for everything? Then why do I see many atheists on this site ridiculing those who say they do have answers? Why do a lot of people continue to demean those who believe based on their own experiences if the person demeaning never experienced it or tried to? Most Christians that tell others to pray and seek the Word for themselves are doing it out of nothing but LOVE for that person. All I want to hear more of is "Ok you believe it based on experiences you had but theres no reason for me to try to ridicule you because I never experienced it myself." I see a lot more angry responses along the lines of "GTFO you stupid believer I can not believe you can say that! It is wrong lawlz." Anyways im off to bed. Later

Intercessory prayer has been objectively proven to be useless.

I think atheists just cannot comprehend how someone can believe what they believe.

[x_aDrenaLine_x]

The universe is infinite, but not eternal. The law of conservation of mass and energy states that the total matter and energy in the universe stays constant. The universe is, however, expanding, and expanding at an exponentially increasing rate. All evidence points to the idea that the universe will eventually expand to the point where existing energy is stretched across so vast a space as to be practically non-existent, at which point, time itself stops.

The universe also had a definite beginning.

whole argument based on a false premise/thread.

The difference between atheists and theists (and which one I am doesn't matter) is this:
choosing to believe in something because there is empirical evidence it exists, versus choosing to believe in something because there's no empirical evidence it doesn't.

Who said that there is no empirical evidence for the existence of God. For Billions of people there is personal life experience which is empirical evidence in itself. Therer is no difference in the two. The only difference is which perspective you are looking at. Are you looking through the eyes of a Christian who has experienced miracles by giving up everything for the will of God (which can be seen in the lives of many saints) or are you looking through the eyes of an atheist who does not believe based on physical evidence. Physical evidence can not be used when determining if there is a God. The only way to see Him is through prayer and fasting but many will not try it or are afraid to. I would not have believed in Christianity if it weren't for the experiences that I have had in my life through prayer and fasting. Now im off to bed again lol. Later all you guys! RMR its nothing but LOVE I have for you all even if we don't share the same views

[pFuzzz]

And now, for what the universe is expanding into....expanding might conceptually be the wrong word. What's happening is that galaxies are not moving away from each other per se, but the space between them is stretching.

Say, theoretically, we have two galaxies 100 light years apart, expanding away from each other. I'm going to measure the light going from one galaxy to the other in order to get the distance. If I take two measurements separated by any increment of time, they will both read the same, 100 light years, however the wavelength of the light in the second measurement will have gotten longer. It's as if instead of a beam of light I ran a tape measure between the two galaxies. The tape measure will still read the same in both measurements, but it will be longer.


....besides, to me at least, it makes perfect sense that something infinite could be expanding given mathematician Paul Erdos proved that some infinities are larger than others.