Crossfit - Why is it bad?

[Metal_Lust]

ah, I go to 24 too, 1 power rack. But I don't really see many people using it so im good haha. Gunna try to not make too much noise doing power cleans

[zephed56]

Meh, if you're into sports just do Olympic training combined with power lifting and conditioning.

Do you realize crossfit uses both the full oly lifts and the power versions, uses heavy back squatting and deadlifting, occasional heavy bench pressing, and lots of overhead pressing?

And it is a really, really good way to get conditioned.

[GuyJin]

This was brought up in another thread, but it bears repeating. Know what you're training for and think about the results it will bring. Cross-Fit is good for endurance, toning up, losing weight, and gaining some size and strength to with it, and there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

Where some people get it wrong is when they mistakenly assume that this programme will get them big and strong; sorry, it won't. If you want to be a powerlifter, then do the "Big Three" (squats, deads, and benches) plus some accessory exercises and you're good to go; if you're into Olympic lifting, then snatches, cleans, clean-and-jerks, presses, squats, front squats and the like will get you there. Same with bodybuilding--look for programmes that'll give you the most hypertrophy. Cross-Fit is good for what it is, but it really isn't a bodybuilding programme. You get a little bigger, a little stronger, but maximize neither--sort of like stealing from Peter to pay Paul, or something like that. Once you know what you want, exercise like a demon to achieve that goal.

[Kelei]

Crossfit is more of a general conditioning and fitness program than anything else, nobody is saying that crossfit is "bad" so to speak, we are simply saying that in terms of helping you build muscle mass it is not going to help very much at all in comparison to actual weight training.

[double gonad]

There are a few articles about CrossFit on T-nation, here's a link to one of them. If you search through the 2009 article archives, you'll be able to find a few more. I've never tried it, never will - just not my thing.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...about_crossfit

[double gonad]

Crossfit is more of a general conditioning and fitness program than anything else, nobody is saying that crossfit is "bad" so to speak, we are simply saying that in terms of helping you build muscle mass it is not going to help very much at all in comparison to actual weight training.

I've read arguments as to the safety of CrossFit. Doing high rep Olympic style lifts while fatigued, and being taught those lifts from instructors that have been certified over a weekend course (ie, might not be qualified) seems like it could potentially harm some people.

[CookAndrewB]

...and being taught those lifts from instructors that have been certified over a weekend course (ie, might not be qualified) seems like it could potentially harm some people.

This is a valid argument for ANY workout plan. I know the trainers at my local big chain gym, and I would be surprised to learn that they had even one weekend of instruction.

If the criticism is that personal trainers may not be qualified to give instruction... yes.

If the criticism is that any exercise conducted while fatigued brings added risk beyond that which is inherent in weightlifting to begin with... yes.

If the criticism is that some people may not benefit from doing high rep olympic lifts... yes.

I'll wager my strongman training looks pretty retarded too compared to whatever "safe and effective" standard is being referenced.

[double gonad]

This is a valid argument for ANY workout plan. I know the trainers at my local big chain gym, and I would be surprised to learn that they had even one weekend of instruction.

If the criticism is that personal trainers may not be qualified to give instruction... yes.

If the criticism is that any exercise conducted while fatigued brings added risk beyond that which is inherent in weightlifting to begin with... yes.

If the criticism is that some people may not benefit from doing high rep olympic lifts... yes.

I'll wager my strongman training looks pretty retarded too compared to whatever "safe and effective" standard is being referenced.

Good points, and trust me, I have no beef with Crossfit. But for arguments sake, would a complete newb be performing your strongman training? I think the CF criticism that I've read that's most valid is that people who are very new to complex movements (Oly lifts) are asked to perform them using high repetitions while fatigued. Poor form might not get you injured the first time, but the 1,000th time is a different story. Again, I've not done CrossFit and don't really have anything against it...

[CookAndrewB]

Good points, and trust me, I have no beef with Crossfit. But for arguments sake, would a complete newb be performing your strongman training? I think the CF criticism that I've read that's most valid is that people who are very new to complex movements (Oly lifts) are asked to perform them using high repetitions while fatigued. Poor form might not get you injured the first time, but the 1,000th time is a different story. Again, I've not done CrossFit and don't really have anything against it...

For strongman... yes. We have new people start up with us all the time. Most of them (not all) are guys that probably can't squat their bodyweight yet with good form. We get them moving towards better squats and such, but in the meantime there is no good reason they can't start learning their way around a log press or an atlas stone load.

Today I had two highschool aged guys, one that has been training strongman for a couple years now and the other was his buddy, train with me this morning. This is the PERFECT time to start schooling these kids about form, technique, programming, etc. While we were working out I was constantly coaching them along. That is where strongman (and probably crossfit) wins. Because you step into an established group mixed in with veterans and noobs, and at least on the strongman end we take care of our own. What a new guy ends up with is a half dozen coaches working with him to make him better. In the bodybuilding world you may be lucky enough to train with a pro, or an actual bodybuilder, but I don't know of bodybuilding training groups the way I know they exist in strongman (and Oly lifting too. They are another good example of a community that provides a good amount of coaching from all sides.

My understanding of CF is similar (saying this not from my own experience so much as I have a buddy that runs a Crossfit gym, and he is CF certified). He, and I am sure this may not apply to every CF gym, spends TONS of time teaching his people proper lift techniques. I have worked with my buddy to tighten up his own technique, and we have talked at length about how to "cue" trainees to get into the right position for a lift.

That being said he doesn't have his people snatch. They do cleans (and frankly the weight they use is pretty light, so the fatigue isn't muscle failure so much as it is cardiovascular in nature... it makes them suck wind, but it isn't like trying to do rep after rep at 90% of your 1RM), and deads and med-ball squats, etc. His long term clients are in pretty terrific shape. Not bodybuilders, but you would easily recognize them as people that work out.

[bull.dogz]

The thing is, the coaches will teach these moves to people that don't know how to do them. Before every workout, they go over the moves with us. The oly lifts were new to me. They worked one on one with me till I got the motion. Then I was able to start the workout...if they felt I was ready.

[CookAndrewB]

The thing is, the coaches will teach these moves to people that don't know how to do them. Before every workout, they go over the moves with us. The oly lifts were new to me. They worked one on one with me till I got the motion. Then I was able to start the workout...if they felt I was ready.

Exactly. You don't show up and just grab a barbell, like you would in a commercial gym.

[Epictetus IV]

To those people who don't think that you can build some serious strength with crossfit, you've obviously never done crossfit or know anything about it.



Yeah, this guy is definitely a fragile little girl.

We do plenty of olympic movements, plenty of strength days, metcons, etc. Just two days ago we test our clean and jerk 1RM.

The majority of work we do at my crossfit gym is strength workouts. (Probably 60% or more) Deadlifts, Squat-Clean-Thrusters, Front Squat, Back Squat, we've done all this in the past 2 weeks.

[leonidas300]

Crossfit is really awesome for letting people see and know how cool you are too. Also if you can get in one of their little crossfit groups (anyone elses gym have these?) its pretty much like a gang which makes you look even cooler.

Cult.

[CookAndrewB]

Cult.

Well, you said so, so it must be true...

/thread?

[kev120782]

perfect answer (depending on the type of sports- if its endurance based)

I really think you got enough answers here to figure it out. Crossfit is great for endurance and losing weight also helps stabilize your core.

[ven33]

Crossfit does exactly what it is supposed to do. They do not advertise it as a "get huge" program. By no means is it easy. Anyone telling you crossfit doesn't work is an idiot. Just remember that crossfit is not the main street to getting "huge". If you are looking for a quality athletic workout...I would def consider crossfit.

[BigKev23]

This always cracks me up...


1.6. Will I/can I get big doing CrossFit?

If you train the WODs hard, and eat right and get lots of sleep, you will definitely gain lean mass, lose fat, and yes, you can build muscle mass with the crossfit protocol. More specifically, according to Coach,
Here is a hierarchy of training for mass from greater to lesser efficacy:
1. Bodybuilding on steroids
2. CrossFitting on steroids
3. CrossFitting without steroids
4. Bodybuilding without steroids
The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy.
The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens.
The CrossFit protocol is designed to elicit a substantial neuroendocrine whollop and hence packs an anabolic punch that puts on impressive amounts of muscle though that is not our concern. Strength is.
Natural bodybuilders (the natural ones that are not on steroids) never approach the mass that our ahtletes do. They don't come close.
Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training.

[SpongeTom]

This always cracks me up...

Why is that? They explain why they think it is better, what is your reason for thinking otherwise?

[GuyJin]

BigKev,

Your post about the hierarchy is a general one at best. Yes, bodybuilders on drugs will, obviously, be bigger than the average natural builder; no question. But Crossfitters on drugs being bigger than natties (bodybuilders)? Not really; that's a generalization. If you don't believe me, there are a lot of guys here who are natural and about as big as the guy in Epictetus's vid--or bigger, and just as strong. At any rate, the guy in the vid is one of the exceptions to the rule; many CFers I've seen are indeed in great shape, though hardly massive. And did the guy in the vid gain his size ONLY from CrossFit, or was he doing some other kind of training before he started it? I don't know, but I have seen very few "huge" CF dudes. I'm sure there are more than a few out there, but comparing them to guys who are natural and who are diligent about their training? Sorry; all things being equal in terms of height and bone structure, I don't think so.

Heck, years ago (when I was in university) some older guys introduced me to their version of CrossFit--this was about thirty years back, and I don't think the CF "brand-name" has been around that long. Really, all it is (to me) is a souped-up version of circuit-training. This, in and of itself, is not bad, but did it put muscle on me? Not that much, although I got into tremendous condition. We'd start with leg presses (the gym I used didn't have a squat rack) and do up to twenty reps with pretty much the whole stack (of course, I had to work up to it) then benches, then pullups (as many as possible) and then a run around the small track--about 400 meters. Then, we'd do it all over again three or four more times. Then some other exercises for about fifteen minutes--we did deadlifts, going up to about 225 if I remember rightly--ab work, some lunges and that was about it. The first three weeks I did it, yes, there was that "anabolic kickstart" you mentioned, but then the gains dropped off, and it was necessary to backcycle the intensity somewhat. I kept with it, and even though I got into great shape and lost weight, I didn't get all that strong.

When I switched to doing regular weight training i.e. four days a week on a split, I gained a lot more size and strength, and my food intake was the same as when I did that kind of circuit training. So maybe I'm below the bell curve or above it, or right on the line; I don't know. All I DO know is that by training the "traditional" way, I gained a lot more size. No, I wasn't into all that much "conditioning work" back then, but then again, if I knew then what I know now...

So, I won't say CF is bad; it is not. It is a good programme for some size (on average) and some strength, and it is great for conditioning work. No question. But it is not, in my opinion, the best way to "get big." Sorry for the long anecdote. Just my two yen on all this...

[SpongeTom]

Im just going to throw this out there because I think a lot of you don't realise. Most proper crossfitters are on a calorie restrictive zone diet, usually only adding up to 2500 calories or less. So of course you wont see huge crossfitters. It would be the same if a bodybuilder was on a calorie restricted diet, the size wont be there.

Oh and Im not going to bother with the this or that is better for building muscle, Id be wasting my breath. But at least take this point into consideration.

[BigKev23]

BigKev,

Your post about the hierarchy is a general one at best. Yes, bodybuilders on drugs will, obviously, be bigger than the average natural builder; no question. But Crossfitters on drugs being bigger than natties (bodybuilders)? Not really; that's a generalization. If you don't believe me, there are a lot of guys here who are natural and about as big as the guy in Epictetus's vid--or bigger, and just as strong. At any rate, the guy in the vid is one of the exceptions to the rule; many CFers I've seen are indeed in great shape, though hardly massive. And did the guy in the vid gain his size ONLY from CrossFit, or was he doing some other kind of training before he started it? I don't know, but I have seen very few "huge" CF dudes. I'm sure there are more than a few out there, but comparing them to guys who are natural and who are diligent about their training? Sorry; all things being equal in terms of height and bone structure, I don't think so.

Heck, years ago (when I was in university) some older guys introduced me to their version of CrossFit--this was about thirty years back, and I don't think the CF "brand-name" has been around that long. Really, all it is (to me) is a souped-up version of circuit-training. This, in and of itself, is not bad, but did it put muscle on me? Not that much, although I got into tremendous condition. We'd start with leg presses (the gym I used didn't have a squat rack) and do up to twenty reps with pretty much the whole stack (of course, I had to work up to it) then benches, then pullups (as many as possible) and then a run around the small track--about 400 meters. Then, we'd do it all over again three or four more times. Then some other exercises for about fifteen minutes--we did deadlifts, going up to about 225 if I remember rightly--ab work, some lunges and that was about it. The first three weeks I did it, yes, there was that "anabolic kickstart" you mentioned, but then the gains dropped off, and it was necessary to backcycle the intensity somewhat. I kept with it, and even though I got into great shape and lost weight, I didn't get all that strong.

When I switched to doing regular weight training i.e. four days a week on a split, I gained a lot more size and strength, and my food intake was the same as when I did that kind of circuit training. So maybe I'm below the bell curve or above it, or right on the line; I don't know. All I DO know is that by training the "traditional" way, I gained a lot more size. No, I wasn't into all that much "conditioning work" back then, but then again, if I knew then what I know now...

So, I won't say CF is bad; it is not. It is a good programme for some size (on average) and some strength, and it is great for conditioning work. No question. But it is not, in my opinion, the best way to "get big." Sorry for the long anecdote. Just my two yen on all this...

GuyJin,

What i quoted was not my saying. I agree with you fully. It was copied and pasted from Crossfit's website itself. That was their list in order of who is/can be bigger.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/faq.html#General5
under 1.6 Will I/can I get big doing Crossfit?

[GuyJin]

Aaah,

Sorry, my eyes are really bad. I should've looked more closely--or enlarged the screen. Apologies. Glad to know we're on the same page.

[ptwa9]

but Crossfit challenges you in a way that is going to provide "functional strength." It conditions your body to tackle the every day challenges that you face.

Bodybuilding is more for show. Your body is a machine that was designed to function a certain way.

See this is why people trash on Crossfit. The followers are fanatics and will buy into anything on the crossfit forums. "Functional" is a sales pitch. Nothing more. If you build strong muscles, through whatever program, then well, 200lbs is 200lbs - that strength will translate into making many daily tasks much easier.

As for agility, you do that by training for power - olympic lifts or crossfit, doesn't matter. This trains rate of force production, and is very useful for lifting heavy weights or isolating muscles well.

So now Crossfit makes women lean and beautiful and it turns men into 95lb weaklings?

Yes! See it tricks them into doing compound movements and actually building some muscle, rather than fearing anything beyond light weight toning routines. Women are exposed to thin models, not necessarily the realization that most models have a good base of muscle - it's the muscle tone that accentuates curves and gives you a good looking body (no posts of juicing women plz).

[ptwa9]

To those people who don't think that you can build some serious strength with crossfit, you've obviously never done crossfit or know anything about it.



Yeah, this guy is definitely a fragile little girl.

He's a big dude. Big guys generally tend to do ok on deadlifts...
And notice the heavy lifts in a fatigued state isn't such a fantastic idea.
Showoff? Sure. He's crossfit.
Btw, his deadlift form isn't too hot either. Maybe if he focused more on setting himself for it, rather than improving his metabolic conditioning time...

[ptwa9]

Why is that? They explain why they think it is better, what is your reason for thinking otherwise?

Yeah how could it not be. Steroids is the key. Cult glassman explained it yesterday.

[Kelei]

To those people who don't think that you can build some serious strength with crossfit, you've obviously never done crossfit or know anything about it.



Yeah, this guy is definitely a fragile little girl.

We do plenty of olympic movements, plenty of strength days, metcons, etc. Just two days ago we test our clean and jerk 1RM.

The majority of work we do at my crossfit gym is strength workouts. (Probably 60% or more) Deadlifts, Squat-Clean-Thrusters, Front Squat, Back Squat, we've done all this in the past 2 weeks.

Can you name one world class powerlifter, olympic lifter or bodybuilder who uses crossfit as the core of thier training? No I didn't think so. I know very well what crossfit is so please stop trying to play the ignorance card. As I have already said, there is nothing wrong wtih crossfit if your goals are simply general fitness, strength and flexibility etc, all I said was that crossfit is not a suitable primary method of strength/hypertrophy training.

[GuyJin]

To add to what Kelei said, Epictetus, how did you gain your size? Pretty good legs, from what I saw in your avi...not from CrossFit, I assume? And the guy in the vid? Any info on him? Just curious...

[BalloonKnot]

So now Crossfit makes women lean and beautiful and it turns men into 95lb weaklings?

Anyone here bagging on Crossfit ever try it? Or are we all armchair quarterbacking here? Anyone here that hates Crossfit a top level athlete who's career was destroyed by this methodology?

...I didn't think so.

Easy to throw stones because you hear someone else do it. It is also easy to train elite athletes who have very specific requirements for their sports and say "Crossfit isn't specific enough for them."

The problem is that the vast majority of people around the country don't have a specific sport that they are training for. They want to be capable, strong (probably not looking to deadlift a car, just feel like they can carry all the groceries in one trip without being gassed or pick up the end of the couch so their spouse can fetch the remote control... strength for the common man doesn't involve 3x bodyweight lifts, get over it), and look/feel better. Crossfit has proven pretty useful at doing those things. Sadly, it has proven infinitely MORE useful than your typical trip to Lifetime fitness with an in-house "personal trainer." Why? Well, it isn't that the method is wonderful, but Crossfit does utilize lifts that matter. Common sense alone tells me that a guy/girl doing squat cleans is going to get better results than someone on the thighmaster or the stationary bike. Solike someone said, it may not be perfect, but it is still a good step better than the crap that most people undertake in the name of fitness.

If all a man ever did and does it crossfit than they will be fairly skinny otherwise they would have to have a lot of muscle mass to begin with...reading comprehension is important.

Read my post again.

Crossfit is a good change of pace but should not be your main or only means of training.

[brudman]

This always cracks me up...


1.6. Will I/can I get big doing CrossFit?

If you train the WODs hard, and eat right and get lots of sleep, you will definitely gain lean mass, lose fat, and yes, you can build muscle mass with the crossfit protocol. More specifically, according to Coach,
Here is a hierarchy of training for mass from greater to lesser efficacy:
1. Bodybuilding on steroids
2. CrossFitting on steroids
3. CrossFitting without steroids
4. Bodybuilding without steroids
The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy.
The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens.
The CrossFit protocol is designed to elicit a substantial neuroendocrine whollop and hence packs an anabolic punch that puts on impressive amounts of muscle though that is not our concern. Strength is.
Natural bodybuilders (the natural ones that are not on steroids) never approach the mass that our ahtletes do. They don't come close.
Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training.

Goodness. What a load of sh*t. Crossfit is good for the purpose of GPP and has some incredible athletes. I admire what a lot of them can do.

But this whole "we are better than the rest" bullsh*t is stupid. 85% of crossfitters are chicken sh*t compared to their "real sport" cohorts.

[bull.dogz]

If all a man ever did and does it crossfit than they will be fairly skinny otherwise they would have to have a lot of muscle mass to begin with...reading comprehension is important.

Read my post again.

Crossfit is a good change of pace but should not be your main or only means of training.

I think for women it's great. Unless, they have other goals than just being all around healthy and fit.

For men, yes, I agree. They are really lean and do not look like "bodybuilders", but that's also not their goal.