Losing Weight AND Building Muscle Mass?

[Xronoz]

I've finally met my 50lb weight loss goal and now I've set a new one for myself: bulking up while continuing to lose fat (so you can actually see the muscle definition). I figure, if I can build visible muscle mass while maintaining or lowering my actual weight then I'm on the right track (let me know if that doesn't make sense...and a BB newb).

However, I keep hearing/reading that fat loss and bulking should be done in separate phases. So, how much truth is there to that? Should I redefine my goal to losing my final 10lbs before I continue the bulking goal?

Is it folly or just harder to reduce overall body fat while focusing on building muscle mass?

Also, how long do those phases (fat loss & bulking) generally last? A week...a few weeks...months?

I guess I'm basically just looking for the general run-down of fat loss in relation to building muscle mass. I've done some research already, but I'm still confused as to exactly why these can't be done at the same time.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[ahunt19]

I was wondering the same thing. I want to get more cut, but also pack on some more muscle at the same time. I think it is more effective to do so in separate stages, but can it be done at the same time?

[rocky_88]

Losing fat while gaining muscle can be done, it's called a recomp. Generally, one will go on a cut or a bulk based on their goals. And this is done for longer than a few weeks, usually months. You won't get desired results in a few short weeks whether you're on a cut or a bulk. The reason you see people doing one or the other is because it is easier to focus on one particular goal (losing body fat/gaining muscle). So choosing to lose fat and strictly focus on cardio will bring you closer to you're goals faster than mostly weight training and a small amount of cardio. When you lose fat, you lose muscle along with it. There's nothing you can do about that. Just like when you gain more muscle, some fat just tends to come with it. So during a recomp you're trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, which can be done it's just easier for someone to do each separately.

[Xronoz]

Originally Posted by rocky_88

Losing fat while gaining muscle can be done, it's called a recomp. Generally, one will go on a cut or a bulk based on their goals. And this is done for longer than a few weeks, usually months. You won't get desired results in a few short weeks whether you're on a cut or a bulk. The reason you see people doing one or the other is because it is easier to focus on one particular goal (losing body fat/gaining muscle). So choosing to lose fat and strictly focus on cardio will bring you closer to you're goals faster than mostly weight training and a small amount of cardio. When you lose fat, you lose muscle along with it. There's nothing you can do about that. Just like when you gain more muscle, some fat just tends to come with it. So during a recomp you're trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, which can be done it's just easier for someone to do each separately.

Nice, informative, reply. Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for.

[GrokTheCube]

For a recomp, diet and cardio are key.

You have to "cycle" calories. On lifting days, lift early, and eat BIG. On off days, Id aim for 2000-2500.

As far as cardio, I like doing an hour or two of LISS every night, usually 4-4.5 mph walk, as this will burn a fair amount of fat. I do HIIT every offday. 3 minute warmup, and 7 minutes of 30seconds on, 30 recovery.

There is also the "Body for Life" method, which is basically eating 40/40/20 at about maint, with interval training, and high intensity pyramid lifting, with one refeed/cheat day.

[Xronoz]

Great info. Thanks.

[NorwegianGuy92]

It is impossible to lose weight and gain more muscles at the same time!
Eating less calories than your maintenance level= weightloss
Eating MORE calories than your maintenance level+ training= weightgain/musclegain

You can get more defined though, and it's also possible to gain a lot of muscle and not much fat ( clean bulk)

[Rising_Phoenix]

It is difficult to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, yes. But it can be done in a moderate way (can't burn tons of fat and create lots of muscle at the same time.)
In the past 3 1/2 months I have lost 22 lbs, and actually have put some muscle on (which means that I've actually lost more than 22 lbs of fat.)

For me the key has been to improve the quality of my diet (lower carb intake and start taking more protein while moderating fat) as well as working out regularly, which I hadn't done before in my life. I've only been lifting weights for almost 4 weeks, but I've definitely seen some improvements. Some of it I guess is losing fat and seeing more definition in the muscle underneath, as has been already mentioned. But I have objectively put new muscle as well. There is undeniable proof of this in my biceps for example.

I would really avoid high intensity cardio, because I think that would be detrimental to your muscle mass, but long duration, low intensity exercises have always worked wonders for me. I'm talking about walking fast on long hikes. That will make your body use your fat reserves more than anything else. You might lose a slight amount of muscle, but then you can compensate by lifting weights afterwards and taking a protein shake or something, which is what I have been doing.

[DuLac]

Originally Posted by Rising_Phoenix

It is difficult to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, yes. But it can be done in a moderate way (can't burn tons of fat and create lots of muscle at the same time.)
In the past 3 1/2 months I have lost 22 lbs, and actually have put some muscle on (which means that I've actually lost more than 22 lbs of fat.)

Pounds lost is not necessarily indicative of fat loss, you'll need to have recorded your bodyfat % before and after for a true indication. Arguably, yes, you lost mostly fat, and increased your strength, which is usually proof of muscle gain. You probably also experienced 5-8 pounds of 'water-weight' loss. Neither muscle, nor fat.

Originally Posted by Rising_Phoenix

I've only been lifting weights for almost 4 weeks, but I've definitely seen some improvements. Some of it I guess is losing fat and seeing more definition in the muscle underneath, as has been already mentioned. But I have objectively put new muscle as well. There is undeniable proof of this in my biceps for example.

What you've experienced thus far is what we call 'newb gains' in broscience. Newbies undeniably lose fat and gain muscle, often for 8-12 wks. Then they need to try harder to continue to improve, and eventually, the gains will continue to come, but they'll take a great deal longer.

Originally Posted by Rising_Phoenix

I would really avoid high intensity cardio, because I think that would be detrimental to your muscle mass, but long duration, low intensity exercises have always worked wonders for me. I'm talking about walking fast on long hikes. That will make your body use your fat reserves more than anything else. You might lose a slight amount of muscle, but then you can compensate by lifting weights afterwards and taking a protein shake or something, which is what I have been doing.

Sorry brah, this is not the best advice. HIIT is scientifically proven to be better for fat loss in a shorter period of time. Less cardio = less calories burned during the aerobic activity = more muscle retained overall.

A terrible, but somewhat appropriate, example is this: Look at a sprinter's body. Then look at a marathon runner's body. Which one has more muscle? The HIIT sprinter, or the LISS marathon runner?

[gironda]

are you reffering to loosing fat while building muscle? this is not the same as loosing weight.

[grim83]

its just slow to do both at the same time. i would just do micro cycles. about 2 weeks of a hard cut, kinda like a pre contest routine, and about 4 on a clean bulk routine. the reason is this

during the cut- you will lose fat (not to much due to the short time), and cause your body to become kinda sponge like

during the clean bulk- you will build muscle (and due to the previous cut have a rebound affect) while also not gaining to much fat. over time this will equal a much improved physique.

[Rising_Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DuLac

Pounds lost is not necessarily indicative of fat loss, you'll need to have recorded your bodyfat % before and after for a true indication. Arguably, yes, you lost mostly fat, and increased your strength, which is usually proof of muscle gain. You probably also experienced 5-8 pounds of 'water-weight' loss. Neither muscle, nor fat.

I hear you. I really can't say how many of those 22 lbs were fat, I'm just going by what it feels like, but that's not a very scientific way to look at it. Never got my BF% checked in my life either, although I should probably get around to it.

Originally Posted by DuLac

What you've experienced thus far is what we call 'newb gains' in broscience. Newbies undeniably lose fat and gain muscle, often for 8-12 wks. Then they need to try harder to continue to improve, and eventually, the gains will continue to come, but they'll take a great deal longer.

Yeah, I've heard that before. I should curb my enthusiasm and be realistic that I can't keep this trend for much longer then.

Originally Posted by DuLac

Sorry brah, this is not the best advice. HIIT is scientifically proven to be better for fat loss in a shorter period of time. Less cardio = less calories burned during the aerobic activity = more muscle retained overall.

A terrible, but somewhat appropriate, example is this: Look at a sprinter's body. Then look at a marathon runner's body. Which one has more muscle? The HIIT sprinter, or the LISS marathon runner?

So the proportion of fat vs muscle that you burn with HIIT is higher than with LISS? I see the analogy between the sprint runner and the marathon runner though. Sorry to give bad advice, I should be more cautious when I open my big mouth.

[Xronoz]

Originally Posted by NorwegianGuy92

It is impossible to lose weight and gain more muscles at the same time!
Eating less calories than your maintenance level= weightloss
Eating MORE calories than your maintenance level+ training= weightgain/musclegain

You can get more defined though, and it's also possible to gain a lot of muscle and not much fat ( clean bulk)

I guess what I'm referring to is how to cycle between clean bulk and recomp phases... in other words, trying to keep your body from fluctuating between pure cutting & pure bulking too much... sort of keeping your body at maintenance levels but also going just outside of that in order to either bulk a bit or cut a bit. I hope that makes at least some sort of sense.

Here's my hang-up: It just doesn't seem healthy to me to pack on a bunch of weight, take it off, and keep doing that over and over again. That's why I'm looking for ways to keep the fluctuation to a minimum while still seeing positive results...even if the results come at a slower rate. I'm not in this for competition...I'm in this for my health.

It seems, however, judging by some of the comments here, that the body actually strives from that abrupt change in phases... sort of a rebound effect (like someone mentioned earlier)... building muscle at a faster rate just after a cutting phase or losing fat faster just after a bulking phase. Is this accurate? If so, I may need to readjust my outlook on this (but still not go to an extreme).

I try to live my life in balance in every way I can, but I'm finding the natural balance in bulking/cutting phases quite hard to pinpoint.

Thanks in advance for any other info that might help. I've seen some great replies so far.

[gironda]

assuming you mean loose fat while building muscle, it can be done. it's not easy but the best way to do this with out AAS is to commit to a high fat / protien diet so that there are no carbs to put on fat. your body will use the dietary and internal fat for energy. if done right you will remain anabolic and grow. it's expensive to do this because it requires a lot of "manly" meat like steak. it also takes will power.
other wise you can remain on a whole carb / protien diet with moderate fat and maintain a good build but you will have trouble loosing fat and building muscle at the same time.

[MikeMurda]

I was stuck with this problem for a long time. Do cardio to burn fat, don't do to much cardio if your bulking, eat big to gain mass, eat clean to get shredded. Some of the information is really contridicting. Not saying that it can't be done but i found results to be alot slower if your trying to do both, cause your gonna need to find a happy medium with everything, and your diet is gonna be mind boggaling. If possible I suggest focusing more on one.

[Xronoz]

Originally Posted by MikeMurda

I was stuck with this problem for a long time. Do cardio to burn fat, don't do to much cardio if your bulking, eat big to gain mass, eat clean to get shredded. Some of the information is really contradicting. Not saying that it can't be done but i found results to be a lot slower if your trying to do both, cause your gonna need to find a happy medium with everything, and your diet is gonna be mind boggling. If possible I suggest focusing more on one.

Ya, it looks like that's what I'm going to have to do. I still don't like the idea of going on long 2-4 month phases... cutting a bunch of body fat, then switching to bulking phases for another extended period of time, lather, rinse, repeat. It just doesn't seem natural. Plus, I don't want to put on too much fat weight when bulking.

I think what I'm going to do is try to bulk on the cleaner side, while still eating plenty of "extra" to build muscle. I'll lift hard and heavy, and try to keep the cardio to a minimum. ...do that for 3 weeks to 1 month

Then switch to a cutting phase with lots and lots of cardio, but also with some focus on muscle definition. I'll make sure that my diet is in deficit, but not by an extreme amount. That way I can cut fat, albeit at a slow rate, but also have a little to rebuild lean muscle through light lifting...and lots of reps. ...again, 3 weeks to 1 month.

I know the results will be slower than going balls to the wall in both directions, but I think it'd be worth it for me to trade a bit of those results to limit the amount of weight I put on during the bulk phase, and to keep my body closer to the natural balance point.

Everything sound good? Would you add anything?

[NorwegianGuy92]

Originally Posted by Xronoz

I guess what I'm referring to is how to cycle between clean bulk and recomp phases... in other words, trying to keep your body from fluctuating between pure cutting & pure bulking too much... sort of keeping your body at maintenance levels but also going just outside of that in order to either bulk a bit or cut a bit. I hope that makes at least some sort of sense.

Here's my hang-up: It just doesn't seem healthy to me to pack on a bunch of weight, take it off, and keep doing that over and over again. That's why I'm looking for ways to keep the fluctuation to a minimum while still seeing positive results...even if the results come at a slower rate. I'm not in this for competition...I'm in this for my health.

far.

Ah, I see. That's what I'm gonna do as well
Check this out, answers pretty much all of your questions I think:

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...lity_mass_diet
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a..._about_bulking

[N3WS]

Maybe get yourself a good fullbody workout routine for the weights. And do your cardio as normal or more intense. Fullbody workouts help with weight loss too. Your fullbody routine should help you see some muscle gains whilst your losing the final lbs eg: more defined chest than before, can see your delts more etc.
And once youve completed you weight loss and are happy, you could bulk then.
Just my bit of advice, i aint no expert tho, but i do read alot on here.

[Xronoz]

Originally Posted by NorwegianGuy92

Ah, I see. That's what I'm gonna do as well
Check this out, answers pretty much all of your questions I think:

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...lity_mass_diet
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a..._about_bulking

Those articles look AWESOME. I've gotta run to work right now, but I'll definitely be reading the rest later tonight or in the morning...

[Xronoz]

Wow. GREAT articles man! I enjoyed both reads very much, and learned a few things in the process. Thanks a lot!

[Khachikp86]

yes its possible, ive done it. But the process is slow.

[Joelift]

Originally Posted by NorwegianGuy92

It is impossible to lose weight and gain more muscles at the same time!
Eating less calories than your maintenance level= weightloss
Eating MORE calories than your maintenance level+ training= weightgain/musclegain

You can get more defined though, and it's also possible to gain a lot of muscle and not much fat ( clean bulk)

This is simply untrue from my experience. I have dropped 30 pounds in six months while increasing my weights in every exercise quite dramatically.

[Rawb28]

since i started 7 months ago i have put on insane muscle while losing fat this is how.. i eat about 2500 cals a day 40 40 20. i do hiit in the morn 5 days a week.. the key to gains while cutting is train the living hell out of your legs and on this day make it your cheat day..you do this i promise your upper body will grow..