What do you more experienced guys think of full body, 3 day splits?

[ChefXplode]

worked out constantly in high school, completely vegetated first two years of college, started lifting again almost a year ago.

just started full body, 3-day a week program.. what are you experiences/opinions on such programs for beginners?

(also doing cardio 3 of the 4 off days.. low intensity/long duration)

[shainesboostin]

worked out constantly in high school, completely vegetated first two years of college, started lifting again almost a year ago.

just started full body, 3-day a week program.. what are you experiences/opinions on such programs for beginners?

(also doing cardio 3 of the 4 off days.. low intensity/long duration)

Im curious to what theyll say as well. But back in the day tons of lifters did fullbody 3x a week. Not even 3x a week splits, just stright up FULLBODY!

o and Ps, i heard that low intensity cardio is borderline worthless.

[ChefXplode]

Im curious to what theyll say as well. But back in the day tons of lifters did fullbody 3x a week. Not even 3x a week splits, just stright up FULLBODY!

o and Ps, i heard that low intensity cardio is borderline worthless.

..how so?

[Jippo]

Borderline worthless for what though? If it's your goal to build endurance it's great
And yes fullbody is the way forwards

[ImBunky]

No expert here, just joining in to see other's responses.

I am planning to start a 3 day full boady HST program around August.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_II.html

[paulharb]

I've been lifting consistently for about 3 years (off and on before that) and I can say that some of the best gains I've made in terms of muscle mass were on a 3-day, full body workout. I went from 160 lbs to 175 lbs in about 3 months, and half of that weight I gained in 1 month, using H.S.T. 13 exercises, 2 sets of each, 2 weeks of 15 reps, 2 weeks of 10 reps, and 2 weeks of 5 reps. Slow and controlled tempo. I thought it was a bunch of B.S. until I tried it.

I've also used 5 x 5 strength programs (madcows & the texas method), which I'm about to start up again. It's pretty much a full-body workout, without a lot of the assistance exercises. Just squats, bench press/overhead press, dead lift, and power cleans. Great for building strength. I swear by full-body workouts. Personally, 3, 4, or 5-day splits do absolutely nothing for me.

@170 lbs
Squat: 345
Bench: 275
Dead Lift: 385

[ImBunky]

I've been lifting consistently for about 3 years (off and on before that) and I can say that some of the best gains I've made in terms of muscle mass were on a 3-day, full body workout. I went from 160 lbs to 175 lbs in about 3 months, and half of that weight I gained in 1 month, using H.S.T. 13 exercises, 2 sets of each, 2 weeks of 15 reps, 2 weeks of 10 reps, and 2 weeks of 5 reps. Slow and controlled tempo. I thought it was a bunch of B.S. until I tried it.

I've also used 5 x 5 strength programs (madcows & the texas method), which I'm about to start up again. It's pretty much a full-body workout, without a lot of the assistance exercises. Just squats, bench press/overhead press, dead lift, and power cleans. Great for building strength. I swear by full-body workouts. Personally, 3, 4, or 5-day splits do absolutely nothing for me.

@170 lbs
Squat: 345
Bench: 275
Dead Lift: 385

Can you give a little more detail on your HST program? What 13 exercises did you use? Did you repeat the cycle with the same exercises, or swap in different ones?

Thanks

[paulharb]

Can you give a little more detail on your HST program? What 13 exercises did you use? Did you repeat the cycle with the same exercises, or swap in different ones?

Thanks

This is roughly what I started out with:

-Squat
-Straight-leg Dead Lift
-Bench Press
-Incline D.B. Bench
-Pull-ups/Chin-ups
-Dumbell Row
-Barbell Pullover
-Military Press
-Side Lateral
-Rear Delts
-Close-grip Bench
-Barbell Curl
...and a couple sets of ab exercises

I kept the same exercises for all 6 weeks of the cycle, then the following cycle I switched barbell exercises with dumbell exercises and vice versa (Bench Press -- D.B. Bench Press, Dumbell Row -- Barbell Row, etc.). I don't think I did more than 2 cycles back to back. I took creatine, NO2, and GNC brand weight gainer while on this program. In all honesty I think the weight gainer helped the most.

[DavisForman]

I think fullbody is awesome if your just starting out. It worked awesome for me.

[ImBunky]

This is roughly what I started out with:

-Squat
-Straight-leg Dead Lift
-Bench Press
-Incline D.B. Bench
-Pull-ups/Chin-ups
-Dumbell Row
-Barbell Pullover
-Military Press
-Side Lateral
-Rear Delts
-Close-grip Bench
-Barbell Curl
...and a couple sets of ab exercises

I kept the same exercises for all 6 weeks of the cycle, then the following cycle I switched barbell exercises with dumbell exercises and vice versa (Bench Press -- D.B. Bench Press, Dumbell Row -- Barbell Row, etc.). I don't think I did more than 2 cycles back to back. I took creatine, NO2, and GNC brand weight gainer while on this program. In all honesty I think the weight gainer helped the most.

Looks pretty close to what I have planned out so far. May have to add an incline bench. Did you use the 15/10/5 rep plan for all of you exercises? I am just planning on using a high rep burn out set, or two, for the exercises below the break. Also, did you stick to 2 sets for all rep ranges, I have seen some suggest 3 sets once you get down to the 5 rep week.

Squat
Deadlift - Straight Leg
Pullups
Bench Press - Barbell Flat
Curl - EZ Bar
Close Grip Bench Press
Shoulder Press - Smith Machine
Shrugs - Barbell
Barbell Row

Calf Raise - Smith Machine
Leg Curl
Lateral Raise - Cable
DB Flys - Incline
Bent Over DB Flys

[shainesboostin]

If your doing a FULLBODY 3x a week, I wouldnt do more than 7-8 excersises, 13 is way to many!

[DavisForman]

agreed. 7-8

[kitarpyar]

Looks pretty close to what I have planned out so far. May have to add an incline bench. Did you use the 15/10/5 rep plan for all of you exercises? I am just planning on using a high rep burn out set, or two, for the exercises below the break. Also, did you stick to 2 sets for all rep ranges, I have seen some suggest 3 sets once you get down to the 5 rep week.

Squat
Deadlift - Straight Leg
Pullups
Bench Press - Barbell Flat
Curl - EZ Bar
Close Grip Bench Press
Shoulder Press - Smith Machine
Shrugs - Barbell
Barbell Row

Calf Raise - Smith Machine
Leg Curl
Lateral Raise - Cable
DB Flys - Incline
Bent Over DB Flys

I tried HST twice, and its awesome. But there a few points to keep in mind -

1. Use mainly compound exercises; and EACH WORKOUT you add some weight; so it makes a lot more sense to choose barbell oriented exercises, unless your gym has dumbbells that are 2.5 lbs apart in weights (mine doesnt). Remember, progression is the key and Brian Haycock designed this to be a progression in terms of weight, not # of reps or volume - that is the crux of HST.

2. One of the major mental roadblocks in HST is the few # of sets; 3 sets, even in the 5 rep range, is not desirable. Sure, 5 rep sets will take 20-30 seconds less than 10 rep sets. But adding a set, for 8-9 exercises with 2 minutes rest in between (you will need that much once you get to the higher weights) add 25-30 minutes to your routine each day. Overkill!! You are already progressing in terms of weight with this program, so dont try to get cute and add in more volume.

3. HST is hypertrophy oriented, but has some strength increases. Rather than do 2 back to back HST cycles, I would rather do a HST cycle, a strength based cycles, and then the 2nd HST cycle (if you so decide).

As far as your routine goes, I would cut out the flyes, leg curls and laterals. From the exercises listed in the second group, stick to only the calf raises and dump the rest. And even with the calf raises follow 15-10-5 scheme (or, if you insist on going high rep with this, try 20-15-10).

2 sets for the big lifts, and 1 set for direct arm work. That leaves you with a routine like this:

Squat - 2 sets
Deadlift - Straight Leg - 2 sets
Bench Press - Barbell Flat - 2 sets
Curl - EZ Bar - 1 set
Close Grip Bench Press - 1 set
Shoulder Press - Smith Machine - 1 set
Shrugs - Barbell - 1 set
Barbell Row - 2 sets
Calf Raise - Smith Machine - 2 sets

A total of 14 sets. The reason I cut out the pull-ups is because most people will struggle to get 15 pull-ups in good form with bodyweight; if you are going to have progression in terms of weights, that means doing weighted pull-ups. If you think you can do weighted pull-ups for 15 reps, good for you, go ahead and add a set of pull-ups. But that's about it; any more sets will not do you any good.

[ChefXplode]

If your doing a FULLBODY 3x a week, I wouldnt do more than 7-8 excersises, 13 is way to many!

agreed. 7-8

i'm only doing 5.. any good?

squat / bench / deads / tri-pulldowns / dips / curls

and then..

squat / military press / barbell rows / curls / chi-ups / tri pulldowns

on alternating weeks.

low intensity cardio+core on off days.

[paulharb]

If your doing a FULLBODY 3x a week, I wouldnt do more than 7-8 excersises, 13 is way to many!

If you're only doing 2 sets of each exercise, then it only adds up to 26 sets, which is nothing at all. I used to do the full-body HST workouts in a little over an hour--never more than 1 hr and 15 min. But HST isn't the ONLY full-body workout out there. If I were doing a strength-based program or anything with 3+ sets per exercise, I'd agree, 13 exercises is a little much.

[vegatrondon]

I did this one for 6weeks and had some good gains...i have since changed up, but strongly considering going back to it for a few more months...

http://www.weightrainer.net/training/beginners.html

[shainesboostin]

If you're only doing 2 sets of each exercise, then it only adds up to 26 sets, which is nothing at all. I used to do the full-body HST workouts in a little over an hour--never more than 1 hr and 15 min. But HST isn't the ONLY full-body workout out there. If I were doing a strength-based program or anything with 3+ sets per exercise, I'd agree, 13 exercises is a little much.

Well like the routine I just wrote below, you hit every muscle group with one excersise per workout with 3 sets! I think it would be decent....You hit the muscle a little different each time.


-Monday
Squat
Rows
bench
tri pushdowns
bb curls
shrugs
abs

-Wedesday
Lunges
Deads
Incline
dips
hammers
side raises
abs

-Friday
Leg Press
Pullups
DB bench
skullcrushers
preachers
military press
abs

[DavisForman]

The above post is a really good full body routine. Very similar to the one I used.

[shainesboostin]

The above post is a really good full body routine. Very similar to the one I used.

Really? I just kinda made that up for the post, but plan on trying something similiar....Do think I could benifit even tho ive been lifting 3+ years? Or should I just do a fuggin split? I know that fullbody like this worked in the begining but havent tried it since...

[DavisForman]

Really? I just kinda made that up for the post, but plan on trying something similiar....Do think I could benifit even tho ive been lifting 3+ years? Or should I just do a fuggin split? I know that fullbody like this worked in the begining but havent tried it since...

If your bench is 300, then I probably would move onto to something more advanced.

[shainesboostin]

If your bench is 300, then I probably would move onto to something more advanced.

Why do you say that? I thought it can work for experienced lifters? What would you recomend?

[Casey Butt]

Why do you say that? I thought it can work for experienced lifters? What would you recomend?

That routine you listed a few posts back is a good example of an advanced full-body routine. Something along those lines can be one of the most effective strength and size building routines possible for drug-free trainees. The U.S. Olympic Weightlifting teams used routines similar to this during their heyday (from the 1940s to 1970s and after), except with an obvious predilection for the Olympic style lifts (though also heavy on Squats, Bench Presses and Overhead Presses). Until the rapid spread of steroids through lifting and bodybuilding this type of routine was also the building routine of choice for almost every major bodybuilding title holder from 1939 to the mid-1960s. So combining full-body training with heavy weights is not a problem (it wasn't for John Davis, Tommy Kono, Doug Hepburn, Paul Anderson, Norb Schemansky, Bill March, Ken Patera, Reg Park, Jack Delinger, George Eiferman, Clancy Ross, Steve Reeves, etc, etc, etc).

If your joints and nervous system can keep up with that program (i.e. your elbows, shoulder, hips, knees, etc hold out without issues) and you can continue making strength gains then that's obviously a program for you. If you start dragging your heels then I'd re-arrange things so that the middle workout is less stressful on the joints.

[DavisForman]

Why do you say that? I thought it can work for experienced lifters? What would you recomend?

Full body routines are designed for beginners because they are high frequency, low volume. When you are just starting out, your muscles are likely weak, and you have no experience lifting. If you did 4-5 exercises for one bodypart, you would never make progress because you would be doing WAY to much for that one musclegroup. So, we start with a fullbody routine that has one exercise per body part every day you train. One exercise will be enough to stimulate your muscles into growth at this period in training.

However, you will hit a plateau on a full body program. In the last 5 months on my fullbody program, my bench only increased 5-10 pounds. Thats pretty dam slow progress. So then I moved onto an upper/lower split. This allowed me to train with slightly less frequency, and up the volume a bit too, therefore hitting the muscles harder.

A fullbody simply doesn't have enough volume for someone to use forever. I used mine for about 3 years, so you can use them for a long time, but eventually, you will need something more advanced.

[Casey Butt]

A fullbody simply doesn't have enough volume for someone to use forever. I used mine for about 3 years, so you can use them for a long time, but eventually, you will need something more advanced.

Completely false, but this is a very common misconception. I've been training people, beginners to very experienced on full-body routines for almost 20 years. There are simply too many counter-examples for that 'split routines are more advanced' argument to hold water.

Tommy Kono set 27 world records and won 2 Olympic Gold medals training on full-body routines. Reg Park arrived on the national bodybuilding scene in 1949 and was still in the top 2 at the Mr. Universe in 1973 (that's 24 years on top of the bodybuilding world) following full-body routines practically the entire time. I hardly see how either of these men - and they are only two of many - never moved past the beginner/intermediate stage into "advanced" training. In fact, Park owned gyms and worked as a trainer for over 50 years and still promoted full-body routines. Kono went on to coach national Olympic teams (Germany and Mexico) on full-body routines. Jim Schmitz was president of U.S.A. Weightlifting from 1988 - 1996 and has always maintained the superiority of full-body routines for advanced trainees. These are just a few examples. There have been tens of thousands of very advanced bodybuilders, weightlifters, powerlifters and strongman competitors who have followed full-body routines even at the peaks of their careers.

Split routines came in vogue because Weider pushed them heavily in the 1960s as the new, scientific approach to boost his sales above the Hoffman magazines. Conveniently, at the same time steroid users were switching to splits because they worked well with the escalating steroid use.

In my 20 years of training myself and others at the very advanced levels I have yet to see anything indicating the superiority of split routines over full-body routines. Some trainees, particularly those with large bones and robust joints, react quite well to split routines - but they also prosper on full-body routines as well. It's simply a matter of application and choosing the right 'tool' at the right time.

Most of the time people choose split routines simply because they've been persuaded by the magazines showcasing drug-dependent bodybuilders who use split routines, and a large part of the time they subconsciously gravitate to split routines because they are easier but allow the trainee to believe they are doing something 'more advanced'. Sometimes, and for some trainees, they actually are the best choice. Split routines can certainly have their place, but the BS that full-body routines are somehow 'not advanced enough' needs to be put to rest.

.

[07white450r]

I started a full body split about 4 weeks ago and i love it. Mine is slighty diffrent than the ones listed above.. I will do 2 sets per body part sometimes 3 on the larger group's superseted as follows chest/back, Legs/shoulders, Bi's/ Tri's/ Abs. with minimal rest between sets.. And ill do diffrent exercises each lift day, Its a monday/friday are heavy days and wed is a light day and tue/thur are cardio days 30-45 min of HIIT/LIT it has been working for me pretty well lifts have gone up, im now trying to put on a few lbs while keeping bf down..so well see how it goes

[CaptainGorgeous]

Completely false, but this is a very common misconception. I've been training people, beginners to very experienced on full-body routines for almost 20 years. There are simply too many counter-examples for that 'split routines are more advanced' argument to hold water.

Tommy Kono set 27 world records and won 2 Olympic Gold medals training on full-body routines. Reg Park arrived on the national bodybuilding scene in 1949 and was still in the top 2 at the Mr. Universe in 1973 (that's 24 years on top of the bodybuilding world) following full-body routines practically the entire time. I hardly see how either of these men - and they are only two of many - never moved past the beginner/intermediate stage into "advanced" training. In fact, Park owned gyms and worked as a trainer for over 50 years and still promoted full-body routines. Kono went on to coach national Olympic teams (Germany and Mexico) on full-body routines. Jim Schmitz was president of U.S.A. Weightlifting from 1988 - 1996 and has always maintained the superiority of full-body routines for advanced trainees. These are just a few examples. There have been tens of thousands of very advanced bodybuilders, weightlifters, powerlifters and strongman competitors who have followed full-body routines even at the peaks of their careers.

No doubt, full body routines can be effective for advanced lifters (although advanced programming and periodization may be necessary), but to be fair, Reg Park had amazing genetics and could have done well on virtually any routine. And Steve Reeves used enough volume each workout to make the volume of some people's weekly splits look tame. So I wouldn't say that guys such as Park and Reeves are particularly good counterexamples.

[aspengc8]

However, you will hit a plateau on a full body program. In the last 5 months on my fullbody program, my bench only increased 5-10 pounds. Thats pretty dam slow progress. So then I moved onto an upper/lower split. This allowed me to train with slightly less frequency, and up the volume a bit too, therefore hitting the muscles harder.

Lower frequency, higher volume is one way of hitting a muscle harder. Another way, which I prefer is to stick with High frequency and use low volume with High intensity.

[Casey Butt]

No doubt, full body routines can be effective for advanced lifters (although advanced programming and periodization may be necessary), but to be fair, Reg Park had amazing genetics and could have done well on virtually any routine. And Steve Reeves used enough volume each workout to make the volume of some people's weekly splits look tame. So I wouldn't say that guys such as Park and Reeves are particularly good counterexamples.

That's a good point. Park was a workhorse and even Reeves, with his smaller structure, did a volume most people couldn't handle even on a split. So I certainly wouldn't recommend most people attempt to take on either Reeves' or Park's full routines. Park did, however, go through periods of lower volumes (roughly one-hour workouts when he was trying to gain weight) - still crazy weights, but lower volume. Reeves' early workouts (which built the majority of his muscle) weren't nearly as brutal as in his later years. Most people can prosper on that if, like you say, programming and periodization is managed. But the point I'm making is simply that full-body routines are by no means limited to beginner and intermediate training. Even after 20 years of training I personally gain best, by far, on cycles of properly planned full-body training (which revolves around heavy work on Presses, Rows and Squats and their variations). In that time I've also experienced that the majority of genetically typical drug-free trainees react similarly but never experience that because they've been brainwashed (perhaps too strong a term) into the split routine route. I use splits from time-to-time as well, but usually for leaning out or variety.

However, you will hit a plateau on a full body program. In the last 5 months on my fullbody program, my bench only increased 5-10 pounds. Thats pretty dam slow progress. So then I moved onto an upper/lower split. This allowed me to train with slightly less frequency, and up the volume a bit too, therefore hitting the muscles harder.

Any routine will lead to a plateau eventually. At that point it's the change that stimulates new progress - not the intrinsic superiority of one routine over the other. This is the biological law of accomodation that all periodized routines are based on. The trick is to build variety into your routines while still sticking to the basic principles and exercises that produce the fastest progress. After a person goes stale on a split routine a switch to a properly planned full-body routine will produce a similar spurt in gains. The trap that many people fall into is thinking that their new program is 'best' because it gave them some initial fast gains. Arthur Jones and Mentzer heavily used this to 'prove' to people that their ideas were the 'best' - when in reality it was simply the newness of their training approaches to most people. Training styles go through phases like fads over the years for similar reasons.

[ironwill2008]

After a person goes stale on a split routine a switch to a properly planned full-body routine will produce a similar spurt in gains. The trap that many people fall into is thinking that their new program is 'best' because it gave them some initial fast gains.

qft. Changing from a multi-way split, back to a very basic, full-body routine is many times just what the doctor ordered to get you progressing again.

[99cbr]

Full body routines are designed for beginners because they are high frequency, low volume. When you are just starting out, your muscles are likely weak, and you have no experience lifting. If you did 4-5 exercises for one bodypart, you would never make progress because you would be doing WAY to much for that one musclegroup. So, we start with a fullbody routine that has one exercise per body part every day you train. One exercise will be enough to stimulate your muscles into growth at this period in training.

However, you will hit a plateau on a full body program. In the last 5 months on my fullbody program, my bench only increased 5-10 pounds. Thats pretty dam slow progress. So then I moved onto an upper/lower split. This allowed me to train with slightly less frequency, and up the volume a bit too, therefore hitting the muscles harder.

I have been working out for 5 months, and started a 3 day split a week ago last Monday. When I am doing my exercises, its 8-10 exercises a day but I don't feel tired at the end like I did with a full body. Do you think I should switch back or keep at mine? I know its a guess on your part because you haven't even seen me, but I am a smaller guy @ 170 lbs.

I do get sore 1-3 days after the exercise but its not painful, only when I stretch the muscle.