Why do non religious people want proof?

[Hishiad]

I just had this thought.


Most religious folk Christian or otherwise "believe" in their God(s) without anything driving them other than faith, but when Atheist question religion they want "proof".


Why is that?

[Dave P]

Because blind-faith is for lemmings.

[Hishiad]

Because blind-faith is for lemmings.

What is your definition of blind-faith?

[Dave P]

What is your definition of blind-faith?

Believing in something 100% without any evidence to support that belief.

[Hishiad]

Believing in something 100% without any evidence to support that belief.

You're contradicting yourself with that statement. To believe as defined by the dictionary is to have "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof" (www.dictionary.com)


So if you have 100% evidence to support your belief it is now a fact and not a belief at all.


You can 100% -prove- the earth isn't flat thus no one "believes" the earth is flat, anymore.


Can you 100% prove there isn't some form of higher being?

[oleg1227]

You're contradicting yourself with that statement. To believe as defined by the dictionary is to have "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof" (www.dictionary.com)


So if you have 100% evidence to support your belief it is now a fact and not a belief at all.


You can 100% -prove- the earth isn't flat thus no one "believes" the earth is flat, anymore.


Can you 100% prove there isn't some form of higher being?

What makes you believe that the earth isnt in fact flat? Have you been to space to seen for yourself?

Same idea that all religious people use

Thus:
[IMG]http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/oleg1227/not_this_****_again.jpg[/IMG]

[Hishiad]

lol /thread.
So much fail

In what way is opening a discussion fail?


I think you're comment/reply is fail since rather than add anything or take any sort of side in the discussion you simply input a generic statement that is overrunning the boards here.

[ghengisconor]

OP, I don't know. i've oft argued here that faith in something necessarily means that there is no proof. So people who demand proof aren't ever going to get it.

I guess there are some grounds where proof should be offered, but those are largely on grounds that do not deal in matters of faith.

[TheStender]

Because it's the only argument they really have against faith?

[Hishiad]

There's 100% proof the earth isn't flat because if you start walking in one direction in a straight line you'll get back to where you started. Or better yet simply look in the distance at the horizon rather than it staying flat you see curves.


I've not even established which side I'm on and you're directing your comments at -me- instead of the arguement.


Debating is done on a topic not on a person.

[Penile_Dementia]

because, more than anything in the world I would like Christianity to be true, but i have no capability of putting absolute belief and faith in something with no proof without being dishonest to myself.

Can you 100% prove there isn't some form of higher being?

no. totally irrelevant to my stance of atheism. you may as well ask can you 100% prove that there aren't invisible fairies at the bottom of my garden?

[oleg1227]

In what way is opening a discussion fail?


I think you're comment/reply is fail since rather than add anything or take any sort of side in the discussion you simply input a generic statement that is overrunning the boards here.

I edited my response for you. The reason being is because there are about 1000 more threads about the same thing here. And you just make it 1001.

Atheism is based on facts and proof that we get from theories created. The reason why non religious people want proof is because thats how ALL modern science is based. There would be no medicine or electricity or anything today if the theories weren't tested and proven correct. Thus you asking why atheists need proof for reasoning is just like asking why do you taste your milk before you can fully assert that its expired.

[Hishiad]

because, more than anything in the world I would like Christianity to be true, but i have no capability of putting absolute belief and faith in something with no proof without being dishonest to myself.

Understandable as humans I don't know of anyone who can truly fathom the vastness of the world outside themselves. Thus it's hard to imagine "infinity" or an "eternal" life after death which we so strongly have been lead to believe is the end.


This isn't just a "is Christianity right" topic I meant simply all religious folks and then the stone cold non religious folks...as to what religion I'm not specific.

[Penile_Dementia]

I edited my response for you. The reason being is because there are about 1000 more threads about the same thing here. And you just make it 1001.

Atheism is based on facts and proof that we get from theories created. The reason why non religious people want proof is because thats how ALL modern science is based. There would be no medicine or electricity or anything today if the theories weren't tested and proven correct. Thus you asking why atheists need proof for reasoning is just like asking why do you taste your milk before you can fully assert that its expired.

My atheism isn't based on facts and proof. it is solely based on lack of certain facts and proof.

[oleg1227]

There's 100% proof the earth isn't flat because if you start walking in one direction in a straight line you'll get back to where you started. Or better yet simply look in the distance at the horizon rather than it staying flat you see curves.


I've not even established which side I'm on and you're directing your comments at -me- instead of the arguement.


Debating is done on a topic not on a person.

So lets say you believe in religion. So you dont necessary need proof to believe. So based on that logic every single person on http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/ is right because they believe?

[Penile_Dementia]

Understandable as humans I don't know of anyone who can truly fathom the vastness of the world outside themselves. Thus it's hard to imagine "infinity" or an "eternal" life after death which we so strongly have been lead to believe is the end.


This isn't just a "is Christianity right" topic I meant simply all religious folks and then the stone cold non religious folks...as to what religion I'm not specific.

i know it's not an "is christianity right" topic. my specification of religion does not change my argument.

ultimately - I cannot "believe" in religion without being a liar. many people can manage it, but not me.

it's nothing to do with hard to imagine "infinity" or "eternal life"- i'm totally open to them, or a god existing.

[oleg1227]

My atheism isn't based on facts and proof. it is solely based on lack of certain facts and proof.

I meant the rest of the science. I dont believe in god unless proven to exist or not.

[Hishiad]

I edited my response for you. The reason being is because there are about 1000 more threads about the same thing here. And you just make it 1001.

Atheism is based on facts and proof that we get from theories created. The reason why non religious people want proof is because thats how ALL modern science is based. There would be no medicine or electricity or anything today if the theories weren't tested and proven correct. Thus you asking why atheists need proof for reasoning is just like asking why do you taste your milk before you can fully assert that its expired.

Good point but if Atheism is based on facts and proof what facts and proof do they have against religion?


I don't have anything personally against anyone for -their- belief system. I believe what I believe because as I've lived my life my journeys have brought me where I am. But Atheist in my experience (with the ones -I- have met) tend to point fingers and demand you prove them wrong in order for something (specifically religion) to truly exist.

[Hishiad]

So lets say you believe in religion. So you dont necessary need proof to believe. So based on that logic every single person on http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/ is right because they believe?

I'm not debating -right- I never said who was right or wrong.

i know it's not an "is christianity right" topic. my specification of religion does not change my argument.

ultimately - I cannot "believe" in religion without being a liar. many people can manage it, but not me.

it's nothing to do with hard to imagine "infinity" or "eternal life"- i'm totally open to them, or a god existing.

Interesting...why do you call yourself an Atheist when it seems you have very Agnostic type views?

[Penile_Dementia]

Good point but if Atheism is based on facts and proof what facts and proof do they have against religion?

The fact that by simple deduction every religion on the planet, except one, at best, is false... is a good one...

I don't have anything personally against anyone for -their- belief system. I believe what I believe because as I've lived my life my journeys have brought me where I am. But Atheist in my experience (with the ones -I- have met) tend to point fingers and demand you prove them wrong in order for something (specifically religion) to truly exist.

the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the person who doesn't believe in something. how can the burden of proof be on a stance that in itself makes no claims at all?

Interesting...why do you call yourself an Atheist when it seems you have very Agnostic type views?

Because agnosticism is atheism. Probably the majority of atheists (logical ones anyway ) would be agnostics.

Atheism = lack of belief in God.

[user5145]

I came to the conclusion that the only methodology human beings have to study our reality is science based on reason, logic, etc. IT turns out that this is not a bad way of studying our reality either, as we have explained an innumerable array of phenomena that were once believed to be the work of the gods. With that being said, I feel that it is morally wrong to believe something without evidence. Our rational intelligence is the characteristic that makes us human, so when we believe something without evidence, we are effectively mistreating our intellect by preventing it from inquiring further into said belief. In short, there is no evidence to believe in a supreme being, so I feel that it is almost an injustice to our intellects to fabricate one.

Anyone interested should read The Ethics of Belief by WK Clifford. That is one work that really made me think.

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...of_belief.html

[ServantOF_Allah]

The proof is all around you. When you're in the desert and find traces of excrement on the ground, doesn't that say that there was a camel there? When you look up and there's clouds everywhere, doesn't that say it's going to rain shortly? Now, when you look around and see all these mountains, oceans, stars, trees and waterfalls, doesn't that tell you that there's God up there in the sky?

[Hishiad]

Agnostic - a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

Atheism - the doctrine or belief that there is no God

[oleg1227]

Good point but if Atheism is based on facts and proof what facts and proof do they have against religion?


I don't have anything personally against anyone for -their- belief system. I believe what I believe because as I've lived my life my journeys have brought me where I am. But Atheist in my experience (with the ones -I- have met) tend to point fingers and demand you prove them wrong in order for something (specifically religion) to truly exist.

I dont know what kind of atheists you met but for example for me: I go to work, I go home, I eat I sleep. A girl comes a long etc etc I have no time to contiplate why i am on this planet and what's my purpose and where im going after i die. I just do everything based on the morals i derived from past experiences and live my life to the most honest way I can. Because it doesnt matter we all die in the end so i make use of my time and thus dont fill my head with useless (in my eyes) information.

But what i can tell you for sure its that if i WAS to believe in god and was good for my first 18 years of my life (i.e. guarantee for heaven) i would honestly be the first in line to die. 65+ years of hardship vs. eternity of heaven? Clear cut choice to me.

[oleg1227]

The proof is all around you. When you're in the desert and find traces of excrement on the ground, doesn't that say that there was a camel there? When you look up and there's clouds everywhere, doesn't that say it's going to rain shortly? Now, when you look around and see all these mountains, oceans, stars, trees and waterfalls, doesn't that tell you that there's God up there in the sky?

lol wut?

[user5145]

The proof is all around you. When you're in the desert and find traces of excrement on the ground, doesn't that say that there was a camel there? When you look up and there's clouds everywhere, doesn't that say it's going to rain shortly? Now, when you look around and see all these mountains, oceans, stars, trees and waterfalls, doesn't that tell you that there's God up there in the sky?

Faulty argument based on all of the limitations of human psychology.

Plus we know how mountains, oceans, stars, trees and waterfalls are formed.

[Hishiad]

I guess with me I've come to be a Christian for a reason most would find kind of sketchy in itself. I personally hate the thought of death being final. It leaves a pit in my stomach and makes me uneasy when I start trying to rationalize with myself that it really is just a period to life. I don't know if I could function as well as I do without a belief in an afterlife as a reward (or punishment) for the things I've done. If death was really all there was could you honestly take for grant all the minutes/seconds you have? Would you still find yourself doing some of the things you do?


I know it's not the best answer, but ultimately things that have happened in my life where I went with my "gut" have lead to believe it's not a simple matter of random happening that I get these feelings of wrong/right simply because of my upbringing. Since people can come from horrible homes and still walk a straight line. I truly feel that there is God in my life and he is that 2nd thought or that gut feeling or those thoughts of regret.

[Penile_Dementia]

The proof is all around you. When you're in the desert and find traces of excrement on the ground, doesn't that say that there was a camel there? When you look up and there's clouds everywhere, doesn't that say it's going to rain shortly? Now, when you look around and see all these mountains, oceans, stars, trees and waterfalls, doesn't that tell you that there's God up there in the sky?

No. that's a huge logical leap and invalid comparison. we have often directly observed camels pooping and clouds leading to rain.

we actually have little to no such insight into God, whether He exists or not.

Agnostic - a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

Atheism - the doctrine or belief that there is no God

sigh... i am well aware of these much trotted out things. the latter is a very narrow definition of atheism that most self-professed atheists do not fall into.

"In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[3]"

as revkins would say... agnosticism is the stance on knowledge, atheism is the stance on belief.
two different things. Agnostics are atheists.

[Hishiad]

I've always looked at it as atheist don't believe there is a God agnostics don't believe it can be proven (either way)

[WilyCoder]

Our human ability to question things is one of the defining characteristics of humanity.

Religion attempts to subvert that ability and instead rely on 'faith'.