How is pre exhaust beneficial ? eg bis/back or chest/tris ?

[KhoraskGTR]

I know ive got something missing in my understanding.. just not sure where..

As I understand it.. to build muscle (apart from proper nutrition, rest etc) you need to also gradually increase the weight you use. i.e you're not going to continue to put on size if you use the 20s forever...

But, if/when I train.. for example my back then bis or chest then tris, I never have enough energy in the tank to train them 'properly' with the same weight as I normally would if 'fresh'.

To me this seems somewhat pointless ? Why train my tired bis by curling the (eg 30s) when I know they are capable of curling the 60s when fresh ? Am I continuing to stimulate growth by training 'lighter' after the back workout ?

(also, id expect some may comment about checking my form, use different grip etc in eg. back training to minimize bi involvement... and I do.)

[casticonstantinescu]

I've moved my 3-day to a 4-day split where I concentrate on arms early enough in the week that by the time I get to back my bi's aren't fatigued, and the same for chest day.

I think your logic is pretty spot on, and most people have recommended more for triceps (than bicep) that it should be moved to it's own day if it's always taking the #2 spot to chest and you're not seeing the gains you want from them.

[JBrook]

If youre only able to curl 30's after your back worlout but fresh you can do 60's, check your back workout, you are using way too much bicep. I had the same thing in mind so I tried changing my split around. What I found was that the difference was minimal, on every lift for bi's I was lifting the same weight, the difference was maybe a couple reps less per set if at all. I dont think the difference is as much as you think it is, if youre bi's and tri's are too far gone after you back or chest workouts then you are incorporating them too much into your lifts and not working the back and chest as much as you should.

[casticonstantinescu]

If youre only able to curl 30's after your back worlout but fresh you can do 60's, check your back workout, you are using way too much bicep. I had the same thing in mind so I tried changing my split around. What I found was that the difference was minimal, on every lift for bi's I was lifting the same weight, the difference was maybe a couple reps less per set if at all. I dont think the difference is as much as you think it is, if youre bi's and tri's are too far gone after you back or chest workouts then you are incorporating them too much into your lifts and not working the back and chest as much as you should.

You are right, He was using an example saying (eg 30's).

I should also mentioned part of the reason I moved my arms to another day was just due to fatigue after doing a heavy back day, and similarly chest / shoulders. No juice left to keep going with only 2000 calories a day.

[KhoraskGTR]

If youre only able to curl 30's after your back worlout but fresh you can do 60's, check your back workout, you are using way too much bicep. I had the same thing in mind so I tried changing my split around. What I found was that the difference was minimal, on every lift for bi's I was lifting the same weight, the difference was maybe a couple reps less per set if at all. I dont think the difference is as much as you think it is, if youre bi's and tri's are too far gone after you back or chest workouts then you are incorporating them too much into your lifts and not working the back and chest as much as you should.

Yes that was a slight exaggeration.. hence the 'eg.'.. but I just used it to get my point across..
but in the end the difference 'wasnt minimal'... for me atleast.

My point is.. I cant hit my max/goal weight/rep ranges when the muscle group has been pre fatigued by working another.. and im curious as to why it is done by so many people ?

[in10city]

Yes that was a slight exaggeration.. hence the 'eg.'.. but I just used it to get my point across..
but in the end the difference 'wasnt minimal'... for me atleast.

My point is.. I cant hit my max/goal weight/rep ranges when the muscle group has been pre fatigued by working another.. and im curious as to why it is done by so many people ?

People will do it in hopes of fatiguing the target muscle group so it fails before assisting muscle groups - typically smaller and weaker - fail.

But as your instincts tell you, you don't any where near the same overload.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...31&postcount=2

[KhoraskGTR]

People will do it in hopes of fatiguing the target muscle group so it fails before assisting muscle groups - typically smaller and weaker - fail.[/url]

In regards to back/bis and chest/tris.. the back and chest are usually trained first ?

As far as I know they don't really offer much assistance to their respectively trained bis and tris ? eg, back doesn't really assist in a preacher curl..

[hulkinout]

This isn't really a question about pre-exhausting; it's about arranging bodyparts effectively in a workout.

In conjunction with other suggestions, if your arms are suffering that badly after back or chest, move them to a day on their own, at least for the interim. You could also try biceps after chest and triceps after back if you don't have the luxury of an extra workout day. Those combos tend to work well.

Good luck. Hope you start to notice some improvements.

[KhoraskGTR]

This isn't really a question about pre-exhausting; it's about arranging bodyparts effectively in a workout.

In conjunction with other suggestions, if your arms are suffering that badly after back or chest, move them to a day on their own, at least for the interim. You could also try biceps after chest and triceps after back if you don't have the luxury of an extra workout day. Those combos tend to work well.

Good luck. Hope you start to notice some improvements.

Thanks, and I already have been for quite a while.. just switched over to a bis/back and chest/tris to try something new..

but I still think the question is still about pre-exhausting, and no one seems to have touched it much.. so lets ignore me and put it in more 'general' terms...

If people train, for example, back first and pre fatigue their bis (even minimally) and then cant train their bis as hard as they could on a 'fresh day'... Are they going to see the same type of growth in the bis as someone who trains them with, eg. chest or alone.. i.e 'fresh'... just trying to get my head around why this type of split is often used..

[hulkinout]

Thanks, and I already have been for quite a while.. just switched over to a bis/back and chest/tris to try something new..

but I still think the question is still about pre-exhausting, and no one seems to have touched it much.. so lets ignore me and put it in more 'general' terms...

If people train, for example, back first and pre fatigue their bis (even minimally) and then cant train their bis as hard as they could on a 'fresh day'... Are they going to see the same type of growth in the bis as someone who trains them with, eg. chest or alone.. i.e 'fresh'... just trying to get my head around why this type of split is often used..

The concept of pre-exhaustion has to do with using an isolation move immediately prior to using a compound move for the same muscle group, in order to put greater emphasis on that muscle, since often the supporting muscles come too much into play.

For example, performing flies before benching, lat pullovers before pullups, lateral raises before overhead presses, and leg extensions before squats or leg presses. While some might disagree, applied to arms, this could entail doing concentration curls or incline db curls before barbell curls or chins, or doing pushdowns prior to close grip benching or dips.

Doing biceps after working back has nothing to do with pre-exhausting your biceps. Your biceps are merely an assistant during back work. Of course, they'll be significantly drained if you work them afterward. Personally, I don't think it would be as effective as doing biceps on their own day, either alone, with triceps, or after chest or delts.

Those who choose to do the back/bis and chest/tris are using what's called the push/pull system, performing push exercises one day, pull exercises the other. Some can and do benefit from it. I'm not one of those people, so I use what works for me.

Experimentation is a huge part of the bodybuilding process. Unless you're genetically gifted and grow by just picking up a weight, you have to put in the time finding out what works and what doesn't for your individual body. We can give our opinions based on our own experiences, but only your own experience will help you in the long run. Good luck.

[Mr. Tripeps]

People will do it in hopes of fatiguing the target muscle group so it fails before assisting muscle groups - typically smaller and weaker - fail.

But as your instincts tell you, you don't any where near the same overload.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...31&postcount=2

Exactly.

This isn't really a question about pre-exhausting; it's about arranging bodyparts effectively in a workout.

In conjunction with other suggestions, if your arms are suffering that badly after back or chest, move them to a day on their own, at least for the interim. You could also try biceps after chest and triceps after back if you don't have the luxury of an extra workout day. Those combos tend to work well.

Good luck. Hope you start to notice some improvements.

Exactly.

Thanks, and I already have been for quite a while.. just switched over to a bis/back and chest/tris to try something new..

but I still think the question is still about pre-exhausting, and no one seems to have touched it much.. so lets ignore me and put it in more 'general' terms...

If people train, for example, back first and pre fatigue their bis (even minimally) and then cant train their bis as hard as they could on a 'fresh day'... Are they going to see the same type of growth in the bis as someone who trains them with, eg. chest or alone.. i.e 'fresh'... just trying to get my head around why this type of split is often used..

The answer lies in one of the key principles of bodybuilding... prioritization.

Train a bodypart first on any day, earlier in the week, after a rest day etc., giving the muscle priority, and you can expect better gains.

People generally put those two groups together simply because they are related. If you can get to the gym 7 days a week and break everything apart, then you wouldn't have an issue, but most don't have the time. A better split would be chest/bis, back/tris, as they don't have much crossover, but don't plan on doing your back/tri day too soon after chest/bi, as your bi fatigue will limit your back, and vice versa if you hit your tris before chest day.

[KhoraskGTR]

The concept of pre-exhaustion has to do with using an isolation move immediately prior to using a compound move for the same muscle group, in order to put greater emphasis on that muscle, since often the supporting muscles come too much into play.

For example, performing flies before benching, lat pullovers before pullups, lateral raises before overhead presses, and leg extensions before squats or leg presses. While some might disagree, applied to arms, this could entail doing concentration curls or incline db curls before barbell curls or chins, or doing pushdowns prior to close grip benching or dips.

Ok thanks for clearing the terminology up for me and i understand the concept.. seems I've mixed it up with 'physicially draining' the muscle as you mention below.

Doing biceps after working back has nothing to do with pre-exhausting your biceps. Your biceps are merely an assistant during back work. Of course, they'll be significantly drained if you work them afterward. Personally, I don't think it would be as effective as doing biceps on their own day, either alone, with triceps, or after chest or delts.

This is really what ive been getting at and still kind of remains unanswered and more of just 'given as'.. You say the bis will obviously be physically drained after working them with back... but then say it would not be effective to work them with any other muscle group (where they do not get 'pre physically drained')... this is given without explanation ? What I'm really looking for is an answer to.. "Why is working an already physically drained muscle group EFFECTIVE at building mass ??", as u suggest above.

Those who choose to do the back/bis and chest/tris are using what's called the push/pull system, performing push exercises one day, pull exercises the other. Some can and do benefit from it. I'm not one of those people, so I use what works for me.

Experimentation is a huge part of the bodybuilding process. Unless you're genetically gifted and grow by just picking up a weight, you have to put in the time finding out what works and what doesn't for your individual body. We can give our opinions based on our own experiences, but only your own experience will help you in the long run. Good luck.

Exactly what im trying to do atm figure out what works for me.. just trying to figure it out on paper as well

[in10city]

This is really what ive been getting at and still kind of remains unanswered and more of just 'given as'.. You say the bis will obviously be physically drained after working them with back... but then say it would not be effective to work them with any other muscle group (where they do not get 'pre physically drained')... this is given without explanation ? What I'm really looking for is an answer to.. "Why is working an already physically drained muscle group EFFECTIVE at building mass ??", as u suggest above.

I think you need to differentiate between effective and optimal.

Doing back then bis will still be effective becasue you are indeed training it but it may not be optimal to applying a sufficient loading and training volume depending upon fatigued they are and host of other factors.

[KhoraskGTR]

I think you need to differentiate between effective and optimal.

Doing back then bis will still be effective becasue you are indeed training it but it may not be optimal to applying a sufficient loading and training volume depending upon fatigued they are and host of other factors.

Yeah I think it comes down to prioritization as sincerelyryan said... and an effective/optimal
split as you said..

I was just under the impression there would be deeper reasoning behind why training like this was so popular... guess I was wrong

[hulkinout]

This is really what ive been getting at and still kind of remains unanswered and more of just 'given as'.. You say the bis will obviously be physically drained after working them with back... but then say it would not be effective to work them with any other muscle group (where they do not get 'pre physically drained')... this is given without explanation ? What I'm really looking for is an answer to.. "Why is working an already physically drained muscle group EFFECTIVE at building mass ??", as u suggest above.

You misinterpret. It WOULD be more effective to work bicep son their own day, or after chest or shoulders, since your biceps don't come into play with either of these muscles. Same with working tris after back. It WOULDN'T be effective to work bi's after back, or tri's after chest in my opinion.

Make sense?

[Rsardinia]

The concept of pre-exhaustion has to do with using an isolation move immediately prior to using a compound move for the same muscle group, in order to put greater emphasis on that muscle, since often the supporting muscles come too much into play.

For example, performing flies before benching, lat pullovers before pullups, lateral raises before overhead presses, and leg extensions before squats or leg presses. While some might disagree, applied to arms, this could entail doing concentration curls or incline db curls before barbell curls or chins, or doing pushdowns prior to close grip benching or dips.

Doing biceps after working back has nothing to do with pre-exhausting your biceps. Your biceps are merely an assistant during back work. Of course, they'll be significantly drained if you work them afterward. Personally, I don't think it would be as effective as doing biceps on their own day, either alone, with triceps, or after chest or delts.

Those who choose to do the back/bis and chest/tris are using what's called the push/pull system, performing push exercises one day, pull exercises the other. Some can and do benefit from it. I'm not one of those people, so I use what works for me.

Experimentation is a huge part of the bodybuilding process. Unless you're genetically gifted and grow by just picking up a weight, you have to put in the time finding out what works and what doesn't for your individual body. We can give our opinions based on our own experiences, but only your own experience will help you in the long run. Good luck.

Winner. I used to do back/bis and chest tris, and found that I was too taxed from the major work out (back or chest) to put in a good workout on the arm portion. I ended up just doing a half assed arm work out for either bis or tris and then left.

I then tried the push/pull combo and that was ok but I didn't feel like I got the full workout either. I've finally broken down and now do an entire day for arms (tris first then biceps) and I can't tell you how great it is. Doing arms on their own day allows you to come in fresh, do big weights on the things like close grip bench, dips, french curls, barbell curls, incline db curls, etc. etc. Then after you do the big weight stuff, you can drop down and do the more isolated workouts where you peak the muscle to get added definition.

You won't truly understand doing arms on its own day until you get fed up with your lack of results on chest/tris or back/bis.

And as for pre-exhaustion, I wouldn't recommend it for arms, but as said above for lats, chest, legs, and shoulders it is a great way to hit the muscles you are targeting before the other muscles in the compound exercises kick in. Pre-exhaustion is mainly done to hit the stubborn muscles that you just can't seem to grow. You hear people all the time complaining about this or that won't grow like the rest of me and this is a good way to spark some growth. My lats are my trouble area right now so I've been pre-exhausting them with lat pullovers before I do my lat pull downs and they get fatigued quicker and I can't do as much weight. But they are getting a better workout, and as the weight starts to go up and catch up to my old numbers that means I'm stronger since its happening after pre-exhausting them, not when they are fresh. Pre-exhaustion also helps get more blood flowing to the muscle group you are trying to work out.

[Lean88]

Winner. I used to do back/bis and chest tris, and found that I was too taxed from the major work out (back or chest) to put in a good workout on the arm portion. I ended up just doing a half assed arm work out for either bis or tris and then left.

I then tried the push/pull combo and that was ok but I didn't feel like I got the full workout either. I've finally broken down and now do an entire day for arms (tris first then biceps) and I can't tell you how great it is. Doing arms on their own day allows you to come in fresh, do big weights on the things like close grip bench, dips, french curls, barbell curls, incline db curls, etc. etc. Then after you do the big weight stuff, you can drop down and do the more isolated workouts where you peak the muscle to get added definition.

You won't truly understand doing arms on its own day until you get fed up with your lack of results on chest/tris or back/bis.

And as for pre-exhaustion, I wouldn't recommend it for arms, but as said above for lats, chest, legs, and shoulders it is a great way to hit the muscles you are targeting before the other muscles in the compound exercises kick in. Pre-exhaustion is mainly done to hit the stubborn muscles that you just can't seem to grow. You hear people all the time complaining about this or that won't grow like the rest of me and this is a good way to spark some growth. My lats are my trouble area right now so I've been pre-exhausting them with lat pullovers before I do my lat pull downs and they get fatigued quicker and I can't do as much weight. But they are getting a better workout, and as the weight starts to go up and catch up to my old numbers that means I'm stronger since its happening after pre-exhausting them, not when they are fresh. Pre-exhaustion also helps get more blood flowing to the muscle group you are trying to work out.

Great advice by you both