Jones agrees to fight Silva in Octagon, UFC prez White says no

[Squizzy]

I see...so after the stats prove you wrong, THEN they're blown off as worthless and unuseable, and we go back to a fact-less argument

gjdm

Exactly. There is no true way to determine a draw, and who has drawing power. It's all pure speculation.

And BTW, there is no right/wrong here when we're dealing with speculation.

[BPP]

Also, 400 K buys is massive (which is what Jones Jr and Antinio Tarver 3 got). Most WWE PPV's do not break that. The only PPV that gets well over 1.0 is Wrestlemania.

Outside of Summerslam, WrestleMania and Royal Rumble - All these PPVs are below 1.0. If you look at the time frame that Lesnar was active in, they were all below 1.0 (aside from WM etc).

Lesnar really isn't that big of a draw. When he wrestled, Wrestling was no longer hot and was considered played out.

http://100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling...f/wwfppvbr.htm

Also, Roy Jones Jr and Felix Trinidad hit 500,000k if I recall correctly. I'll try and find a site for that.

most wwe stats ive seen show an 'average' ppv in the 200-250k buys area. jones did 500k against trinidad who was the bigger name at that time, and 225k with calzaghe... against Hanshaw(despite a PPV price of 29.95) drew 25k.


I'm a huge RJJ fan, but lesnar was a bigger draw and as a wrestler with over ayear of standup experience, a much more legitimate fighter than RJJ with boxing and 0 ground game

RJJ v. Silva is what Dana said... a one-time sale that has the potential to harm the UFC and MMA for years to come. not worth it for a one-time sale that they could easily reach with a strong card anyway

[Mrs Grudge]

Well lets restart this.

Lets not bring up Lesnar w/UFC into this. Were talking about Lesnar Pre UFC. RJJ hasn't had the oppertunity to fight in the UFC, so it is not fare to compare them.

The WWE isn't a 1 star show. Yet with Lesnar along other big names, most of their PPVs did not outsell RJJ/Tarver III and RJJ/Trinidad.

Boxing on the other hand, is a 1 fight show. No one knows who else is fighting on boxing cards except for the main event. That is what everyone pays for. Pro Wrestling has up to 3 main events that people would actually shelf out money for. MMA usually has 2. Boxing is only one.

So, at the very least if you think RJJ isn't a bigger draw than Pre UFC Lesnar, would you atleast say they are close?

[BPP]

Exactly. There is no true way to determine a draw, and who has drawing power. It's all pure speculation.

And BTW, there is no right/wrong here when we're dealing with speculation.

thats why you dont see why ANYONE could be oppossed, and that Dana is an IDIOT for disagreeing with your point, which can't be proven right


but then again, noone's right or wrong...they're just an idiot if they disagree

[Squizzy]

RJJ v. Silva is what Dana said... a one-time sale that has the potential to harm the UFC and MMA for years to come. not worth it for a one-time sale that they could easily reach with a strong card anyway

I'm not sure it would be as "easy" as you think. I seriously think RJJ/A Silva could do around 1 million PPV buys with the right marketing strategy. 750k at least. What other fights are going to do those types of numbers that UFC has to offer?

[Squizzy]

thats why you dont see why ANYONE could be oppossed, and that Dana is an IDIOT for disagreeing with your point, which can't be proven right


but then again, noone's right or wrong...they're just an idiot if they disagree

Now who's putting words in who's mouth?

[BPP]

Well lets restart this.

Lets not bring up Lesnar w/UFC into this. Were talking about Lesnar Pre UFC. RJJ hasn't had the oppertunity to fight in the UFC, so it is not fare to compare them.

The WWE isn't a 1 star show. Yet with Lesnar along other big names, most of their PPVs did not outsell RJJ/Tarver III and RJJ/Trinidad.

Boxing on the other hand, is a 1 fight show. No one knows who else is fighting on boxing cards except for the main event. That is what everyone pays for. Pro Wrestling has up to 3 main events that people would actually shelf out money for. MMA usually has 2. Boxing is only one.

So, at the very least if you think RJJ isn't a bigger draw than Pre UFC Lesnar, would you atleast say they are close?

quite an assumption that everyone buys WWE for the entire card while NOONE buys boxing for the entire card

thats like arguing noone cares about UFC undercards either, which this forum should teach you isnt the case

[Squizzy]

thats why you dont see why ANYONE could be oppossed, and that Dana is an IDIOT for disagreeing with your point, which can't be proven right

And to further reiterate you haven't given one good reason why this fight wouldn't be worth-while for all parties concerned.

[BPP]

Now who's putting words in who's mouth?

look at your post history

"i dont see how ANYONE could disagree"

"Dana's an IDIOT for not doing this"

[Squizzy]

quite an assumption that everyone buys WWE for the entire card while NOONE buys boxing for the entire card

Jesus Christ. Now you're really grasping at straws here pal.

[PrettyPinkDonut]

my first thought was Jon Jones....i am dissapoint now

[BPP]

And to further reiterate you haven't given one good reason why this fight wouldn't be worth-while for all parties concerned.

sure I have if you read my posts

I'll give it again though, for the 3rd time.


1) Obviously its a win for RJJ, its easy money with no downside

2) for the UFC, it MAY get some pretty good numbers, however see #3 for downside

3) For Silva, it's no win. If he wins and doesnt throw punches the entire fight, he beat a washed up, aged fighter in a sport RJJ had no training in. If he loses, he's done as a sell

4) for MMA, its much the same...There's NO upside to Silva winning b/c of RJJ's age and status. If he loses, it damages the entire sport with the typical misc argument that any washed up boxer would own a top MMA fighter

5) if they put on a UFC-100 type card, they'd do just as many buys as silva-rjj would, especially given RJJ's status and Silva's last 2 fights

[BPP]

Jesus Christ. Now you're really grasping at straws here pal.

then maybe that should be at the person who made that comment, not me responding to it


stats are worthless
those who disagree are idiots
replies to others are taken out of context..

please learn how to argue like a grown-up

[Squizzy]

^^^^^^^^^^

So basically what you're saying is they've backed themselves into a corner, like I said from square one. But I'm sure you'll find someway to disagree. Go ahead.

[Mises]

No one really in the MMA world is going to look down at the UFC for not allowing Silva to take the fight lol, and Dana just doesn't want to pay RJJ an extremely huge amount of money to fight in the octagon, cuz you know RJJ is goign to ask for a lot!

[Mrs Grudge]

quite an assumption that everyone buys WWE for the entire card while NOONE buys boxing for the entire card

thats like arguing noone cares about UFC undercards either, which this forum should teach you isnt the case

UFC, Boxing and Pro Wrestling are all marketed differently. UFC markets their undercard fighters better than Boxing Promos do (except for the very top talent obviously).

Boxing is widely stretched over multiple powerful promotions. It is hard to follow the under card fighters. There are so many weight classes, so many cross promotions and of course - the international barrier produces alot of 'no names'.

Pro Wrestling is easier to follow. WWE has multiple shows going on every week. Due to the fact that the WWE has plotlines, they can produce character development. WWE also has a limited roster and a fair amount of them get good exposure.

UFC is some where in the middle. UFC is marketed very well. UFC has a very limited roster and they obviously do not cross promote. In general, I would say that it is just easier to follow. I don't see how that is so insane, since MMA has one Super Promotion while Boxing has 4 promotions with equal power.

Basically what I am saying. If you take out the Main Event (the very very last bout, not co main event) of a Wrestling match and an MMA match - I think that they will not be as critically wounded as the very last match in a Boxing fight. Is that a fair assumption?

[Squizzy]

stats are worthless <- I didn't say that. I said that the stats you provided were inconclusive at best. Once again, who's putting words in who's mouth again?
those who disagree are idiots <-Care to show me where I said that?
replies to others are taken out of context.. <-What?

please learn how to argue like a grown-up <- Okay. Will do officer.

Replies in bold.

[BPP]

^^^^^^^^^^

So basically what you're saying is they've backed themselves into a corner, like I said from square one. But I'm sure you'll find someway to disagree. Go ahead.

uh, no. The UFC never asked for this fight, nor even considered it. RJJ and Silva brought the idea and were shot down. The ufc didnt "back" themselves into ANYTHING

to back yourself into a corner, you have to do something first.



for example:
if I go to my boss tomorrow and give an argument for why I deserve a raise, and get shot down, he's not "backed into a corner" to give one to me or to lose face

I independently thought up an idea, flew it by the boss, and got shot down

exact same scenario

[BPP]

Replies in bold.

for the 2nd time, check your post history. Getting tired of repeating myself since you refuse to read things the first time

[BPP]

UFC, Boxing and Pro Wrestling are all marketed differently. UFC markets their undercard fighters better than Boxing Promos do (except for the very top talent obviously).

Boxing is widely stretched over multiple powerful promotions. It is hard to follow the under card fighters. There are so many weight classes, so many cross promotions and of course - the international barrier produces alot of 'no names'.

Pro Wrestling is easier to follow. WWE has multiple shows going on every week. Due to the fact that the WWE has plotlines, they can produce character development. WWE also has a limited roster and a fair amount of them get good exposure.

UFC is some where in the middle. UFC is marketed very well. UFC has a very limited roster and they obviously do not cross promote. In general, I would say that it is just easier to follow. I don't see how that is so insane, since MMA has one Super Promotion while Boxing has 4 promotions with equal power.

Basically what I am saying. If you take out the Main Event (the very very last bout, not co main event) of a Wrestling match and an MMA match - I think that they will not be as critically wounded as the very last match in a Boxing fight. Is that a fair assumption?

obviously, but I won't make the stretch that the ONLY draw on a boxing card is the main event, while the ENTIRE card for WWE is a draw

i grewup loving wwe, and usually could care less about several matches on undercard

I grew up so-so on boxing, and many times had at least one other match i wanted to see

with UFC, its very well done to wanna see multiple fighters for me, but then again I'm a big fan.....some of my friends who come over to see the 'big names' could care less about undercards, and only come out if a name like Couture, Lesnar, Liddell, etc is fighting

[Squizzy]

uh, no. The UFC never asked for this fight, nor even considered it. RJJ and Silva brought the idea and were shot down. The ufc didnt "back" themselves into ANYTHING

Sure they did. By not accepting the fight, they backed themselves in the corner. That's how. It's basically like saying:

"We think our fighter might end up losing this fight, so we're not going to take it."

When both fighters want the fight, and the UFC shoots it down, they've made themselves look weak. If they take the fight, there's a chance their fighter might lose. If he wins, he beats up a forty year old man. The UFC loses all the way around here. That's how they've backed themselves into a corner. But I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree with me.

[Mrs Grudge]

I still think that RJJ is a bigger name than Pre UFC Brock Lesnar. If not, I would say they are some what comparable. Were getting a little too off topic nao anyhoot so I'm gonna step off here and take my battles else where.

[Riceboi]

the best mixed martial artist in the world, Anderson Silva.

I LOL'ed then stopped reading.

[Squizzy]

for the 2nd time, check your post history. Getting tired of repeating myself since you refuse to read things the first time

Okay, fair enough. I'm sick of it as well. Let's just agree to disagree. Or better yet:

You're right, I'm wrong.

/Thread.

Night fella's!

[BPP]

Sure they did. By not accepting the fight, they backed themselves in the corner. That's how. It's basically like saying:

"We think our fighter might end up losing this fight, so we're not going to take it."

When both fighters want the fight, and the UFC shoots it down, they've made themselves look weak. If they take the fight, there's a chance their fighter might lose. If he wins, he beats up a forty year old man. The UFC loses all the way around here. That's how they've backed themselves into a corner. But I'm sure you'll find some way to disagree with me.

so if Kimbo and Brian Urlacher decide they want to fight in a UFC event, and the UFC says no, they back themself into a corner?

If Jose Canseco wanted to fight Brock lesnar instead of fighting in Japan, the UFC would look bad by telling him no?

Of course I'll disagree with you...unless you're claiming to be "right" after stating no one can be right or wrong? If there is no "right" answer then there necessarily will be viewpoints that disagree

[Kane Fan]

Facepalm for Dana on that one.....although maybe he thinks that Silva would do something stupid like trying to outbox a boxer instead of just taking him down and making him look stupid.

This would be a result of Silva becoming "bored" with MMA as some people seem to think is true.

what would be the point of Anderson Silva defeating RJJ on the Ground? you don't issue the challenge and then beat the other guy in a style he is unfamilar with man lol
I mean it's logical sure but it's also pointless, for the battle to matter it really needs to be a Stand-Up affair
I realize that RJJ is offering to do this battle in the cage, but Silva opened the challenge if Silva goes to RJJ's gym and asks him to have a BJJ match that dosn't really mean any thing now does it?

way to put words in my mouth

please show me where I said jones ISN"T a draw?

I said he's not as big of a draw as Lesnar was when he entered the sport

I've posted numerous stats to back this claim

the big factor you are missing tho is that Brock is a HW and RJJ has fought HW but not in the times we are talking about, the public at leart considers HW's legit and everyone else 'little guys who try really hard' and as for the WWE ppv's I mean, there is so much on a WWE ppv that I got some PPV's Brock was Main Eventing and I hated Brock as a Wrestler...
so you can't say Brock was 'the' Draw for the WWE events.
another factor is RJJ has been called p4p best in Boxing and Anderson Silva has the same at MMA so that is why this would be a big fight

[Kane Fan]

top 10 PPV buys of 2008:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/12/1...h-american-ppv

Lesnar is #2,4,5...WWE is #3.. trinidad v. jones is #8



heres the buyrates for Dec 2006-Nov 2007:

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...d.php?t=178092

RJJ obviously isnt a HUGE draw on his own anymore, as you can see where he is on the list when he doesnt fight a top name

how was Brock's ppv buy when he fought that Korean dude tho...

[Mises]

Does Squizzy have a logic-bolt missing from his head , Dude you're honestly not making a good arguement

[BPP]

I still think that RJJ is a bigger name than Pre UFC Brock Lesnar. If not, I would say they are some what comparable. Were getting a little too off topic nao anyhoot so I'm gonna step off here and take my battles else where.

even if you're given that they're comparable, it's still a worse situation for ufc

lesnar was a physical specimen coming into his physical prime. he had over a year of experience in MMA, and years of wrestling background(real, not wwe). he's a massive beast who the average joe thinks is unbeatable based on physique

jones is in great shape, but is past his prime and in his 40's. he's in a lighter weight class, and is not the build that the average joe will buy just to watch


the average joe, shown Lesnar's body and RJJ's body, will prefer to watch Lesnar, expecting his size will allow him to hold his own better



plus I think experience would show a stand-up guy with 0 ground game is in a much worse spot than a wrestler with 0 stand-up game

[BPP]

how was Brock's ppv buy when he fought that Korean dude tho...

It was an overseas fight, changes things..just like if RJJ had a fight in the UK that wasnt heavily promoted here it wouldnt count due to the international difference