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05-05-2009, 08:29 PM #31
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05-05-2009, 08:30 PM #32"I would fight anyone of the UFC LW's, but the problem is that I will never put my foot in the octagon after they (UFC) tried to be funny, I would rather have bleeding hemorrhoids than fight for the UFC. I would rather have one true Japanese MMA supporter than one million fake mainstream supporters that will turn their back on you as soon as you lose a fight. - Joachim Hansen
“I would feel like a coward, like I’m running away,” - Mirko Crocop on moving to the 205lb LHW division
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05-05-2009, 08:30 PM #33
Well it's not like he use to be the WCW champion .
Just saying, that's really all he had going coming into the first UFC. Big, muscular and a Pro Wrestler. Now he is a Division 1 champ, but that was many years ago such as RJJ being the best Boxer on the planet was. So in a sense that would cancel out. But in terms of drawing people to watch a fight, best middleweight boxer would draw more than a division 1 wrestler :-P .Access the gun's off the earth axis
Axis of evil, the eagle will leave your hat split
Ruck flow is like "**** you, Gawd"
I don't wanna rhyme, I need a construction job
- Sean Price
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05-05-2009, 08:31 PM #34
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05-05-2009, 08:32 PM #35
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05-05-2009, 08:33 PM #36
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05-05-2009, 08:34 PM #37
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05-05-2009, 08:36 PM #38
Brock Lesnar left the WWE in the beginning of 2004. He then joined the UFC in 07 or 08. Wrestling fans have a pretty short memory, and also Lesnar was post Attitude Era so many wrestling fans had never heard of Brock Lesnar.
Post 2004, RJJ had the Rubber match with Antionio Tarver and then fought Felix Trinidad and Joe Calagzhe. A much bigger draw? I seriously question that.
I don't think that WWE buy rates were good back then either. They were producing so many PPV's that people had a difficult time purchasing them all.Access the gun's off the earth axis
Axis of evil, the eagle will leave your hat split
Ruck flow is like "**** you, Gawd"
I don't wanna rhyme, I need a construction job
- Sean Price
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05-05-2009, 08:38 PM #39
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05-05-2009, 08:38 PM #40
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05-05-2009, 08:39 PM #41
your missing the point.
there is that whole boxing vs mma thing that dana white is trying to avoid (for good reason)....
brock being a wwe star is great but he really was a great D1 wrestler.... win or lose everyone always lumps wrestling in with mma (unlike boxing) so if brock fails no big deal and if he wins they just say "he won because of his wrestling ability"....
now if jones won against a. silva it would not be "he won because of his boxing" it would would be "boxing is better than mma"...
see what im saying???
EDIT: and it has nothing to do with how long ago he wreslted vs how long ago jones boxed.... even if it did jones is old brock is still in his prime..Last edited by Coach McGuirk; 05-05-2009 at 08:41 PM.
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05-05-2009, 08:39 PM #42
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05-05-2009, 08:41 PM #43
check the stats
http://corporate.wwe.com/news/2003/2003_11_17.2.jsp
2003 was the time Lesnar became HW champ and the big star
the first quarter of 2003 had 2 pay per views. between these two they had 1.5 million buys
jones-tarver III had just over 400k buys...jones-calzaghe had 225k
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05-05-2009, 08:41 PM #44
Now you're going all over the place in terms of time lines. I'm a little confused here. You originally said that, Lesnar at the end of his WWE career was a bigger draw than RJJ. I don't think that is true, Omar Sheika and Joe Calaghe were pretty recent fights.
Now RJJ, crossing over into MMA. It brings the whole entire 'What if' presence as well. A bigger what if presence then it would Lesnar (or atleast arguably; again my point is that they are comparable). They are both 'freak' show type of fights, but the question is - why give Lesnar a shot and not RJJ?
Also, Omar Shieka is a nobody and RJJ had just come off a loss.
Also, doesn't the first Quarter for the WWE consist of Royal Rumble, No Way Out and Wrestlemania? 2 of those are their biggest PPV's.Last edited by Mrs Grudge; 05-05-2009 at 08:44 PM.
Access the gun's off the earth axis
Axis of evil, the eagle will leave your hat split
Ruck flow is like "**** you, Gawd"
I don't wanna rhyme, I need a construction job
- Sean Price
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05-05-2009, 08:42 PM #45"I would fight anyone of the UFC LW's, but the problem is that I will never put my foot in the octagon after they (UFC) tried to be funny, I would rather have bleeding hemorrhoids than fight for the UFC. I would rather have one true Japanese MMA supporter than one million fake mainstream supporters that will turn their back on you as soon as you lose a fight. - Joachim Hansen
“I would feel like a coward, like I’m running away,” - Mirko Crocop on moving to the 205lb LHW division
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05-05-2009, 08:42 PM #46
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05-05-2009, 08:42 PM #47"I would fight anyone of the UFC LW's, but the problem is that I will never put my foot in the octagon after they (UFC) tried to be funny, I would rather have bleeding hemorrhoids than fight for the UFC. I would rather have one true Japanese MMA supporter than one million fake mainstream supporters that will turn their back on you as soon as you lose a fight. - Joachim Hansen
“I would feel like a coward, like I’m running away,” - Mirko Crocop on moving to the 205lb LHW division
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05-05-2009, 08:43 PM #48
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05-05-2009, 08:43 PM #49
Fair enough. But if they "expected" half a million PPV buys for Joe/Jones they better have expected to win the lottery as well! It's pretty well documented that Calzaghe isn't a draw outside of the UK, so I don't think you could put that squarely on Jones Jr. Besides, didn't that fight sell out MSG? So one way or the other, it wasn't an entire bust. Also, didn't both Lesnar/Herring and Lesnar/Mir appear on cards as co-main events? If so, it's possible that people were buying the fights not solely to watch them fight. As a matter of fact, Lesnar/Herring occurred on St. Pierre/Fitch, and I'm sure people weren't buying it to see Lesnar fight, let's put it that way. Jones Jr. does have drawing power still. His fight with Tito was VERY evident of that. And if you have to point to the Sheika fight, I'd say your basis for argument is pretty weak.
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05-05-2009, 08:43 PM #50"I would fight anyone of the UFC LW's, but the problem is that I will never put my foot in the octagon after they (UFC) tried to be funny, I would rather have bleeding hemorrhoids than fight for the UFC. I would rather have one true Japanese MMA supporter than one million fake mainstream supporters that will turn their back on you as soon as you lose a fight. - Joachim Hansen
“I would feel like a coward, like I’m running away,” - Mirko Crocop on moving to the 205lb LHW division
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05-05-2009, 08:45 PM #51
this. plus he also had 100+ fights as a college wrestler. brock knows what he's doing. RJJ couldn't learn a substantial ground game in 'months'... unless he is BJ Penn. He'd completely have to change his style, no flashy leading strikes and running away... that would be a bore to watch. He's too far past his prime and this isn't what the UFC is about... it's about pitting skilled mixed martial artists against one another... those who love to fight... not those who love to fight for money like the majority of boxers.
Glorious PC master race
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05-05-2009, 08:46 PM #52
That's not even a credible argument here though. People don't order UFC PPVs strictly for the main event. And as a matter of fact, for the most part, there's usually co-main events. It's a different type of PPV in boxing. Nobody is going to argue that Brock Lesnar isn't a draw. Of course he is. But to write Jones Jr. off entirely would be nothing short of foolish! He still has drawing power, whether you want to admit it or not!
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05-05-2009, 08:48 PM #53
Perhaps you're right. But it's hard to rate the WWE in terms of drawing power. Also, that's essentially a whole corporation against 1 (I suppose 2 if you include RJJ's opponent) people. Also, Lesnar was a huge star but he was not the biggest star in the WWE. I'm not sure what the time frame is for the first quarter, but if it is January-April then that isn't a fare comparison since that is when WWE shelves out their biggest events.
Also, we have the whole debate - does boxing sell as much as it use to? Wrestling doesn't sell as much as it use to and boxing sure as heck don't. But a cross over appeal would attract old and new fans of Boxing/MMA.
Lesnar was brought in to fight, because he is a spectacle. He is a has been Pro Wrestler, but Wrestling fans still wanted to see him fight. It apparently worked since the PPV he debuted on sold so much. I don't see why it wouldn't be any different with Roy Jones JR.Access the gun's off the earth axis
Axis of evil, the eagle will leave your hat split
Ruck flow is like "**** you, Gawd"
I don't wanna rhyme, I need a construction job
- Sean Price
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05-05-2009, 08:48 PM #54
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05-05-2009, 08:51 PM #55
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05-05-2009, 08:53 PM #56
top 10 PPV buys of 2008:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/12/1...h-american-ppv
Lesnar is #2,4,5...WWE is #3.. trinidad v. jones is #8
heres the buyrates for Dec 2006-Nov 2007:
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...d.php?t=178092
RJJ obviously isnt a HUGE draw on his own anymore, as you can see where he is on the list when he doesnt fight a top name
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05-05-2009, 08:53 PM #57
You can give me all the numbers in the world, but there's no way to truly gauge that. Jones Jr. has to sell PPVs on his name ALONE. Brock had both the WWE and HAS the UFC to back up his PPV appearances. It's a different ballgame altogether. So therefore, I don't think your numbers count for too much to be quite honest.
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05-05-2009, 08:54 PM #58
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05-05-2009, 08:55 PM #59
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05-05-2009, 08:56 PM #60
Also, 400 K buys is massive (which is what Jones Jr and Antinio Tarver 3 got). Most WWE PPV's do not break that. The only PPV that gets well over 1.0 is Wrestlemania.
Outside of Summerslam, WrestleMania and Royal Rumble - All these PPVs are below 1.0. If you look at the time frame that Lesnar was active in, they were all below 1.0 (aside from WM etc).
Lesnar really isn't that big of a draw. When he wrestled, Wrestling was no longer hot and was considered played out.
http://100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling...f/wwfppvbr.htm
Also, Roy Jones Jr and Felix Trinidad hit 500,000k if I recall correctly. I'll try and find a site for that.Access the gun's off the earth axis
Axis of evil, the eagle will leave your hat split
Ruck flow is like "**** you, Gawd"
I don't wanna rhyme, I need a construction job
- Sean Price
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